Scottish players in action 19/20

[The_Dark_Knight]

On 10/24/2019 at 10:18 AM, AndyDD said:

Gilmour came through at Rangers, did he not? Not sure what the comparison with Celtic's youth policy means here. 

 

That's a complete false equivalency. Yes, Gilmour came through the Rangers youth system, but was it more of a fluke or was it by design? If it were by design there would be a conveyer belt filled with Billy Gilmours at Rangers... But there is not.

They didn't make Billy Gilmour the player he is. 

The point is that Celtic have the resources (money) to produce the same calibre of players that Ajax, etc, do. But they can't be bothered.

Edited October 29, 2019 by The_Dark_Knight

[AndyDD]

4 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

That's a complete false equivalency. Yes, Gilmour came through the Rangers youth system, but was it more of a fluke or was it by design? If it were by design there would be a conveyer belt filled with Billy Gilmours at Rangers... But there is not.

They didn't make Billy Gilmour the player he is. 

The point is that Celtic have the resources (money) to produce the same calibre of players that Ajax, etc, do. But they can't be bothered.

... There is no false equivalency. I was checking if I remembered the facts correctly. I did. 

I suppose it must be by design; the idea is to produce high quality players through the youth system, right? That is 'the design' of the youth system, surely? The plan, the design, surely cannot be to produce poor players or limited players, and their youth system isn't something that has just happened without any organisation or planning, so it's very much something that is designed to produce quality players. 

It just doesn't work very well. It works really rather poorly. 

Celtic's works rather poorly, as well. Tierney is about it, thus far. 

Also, as of 2018/19Ajax had a turnover of 200 million (euros), whereas Celtic's record turnover is just over 100 million (Pounds). Worth keeping in mind. 

[Squirrelhumper]

I think Gilmour will start vs Man Utd tonight.

[Squirrelhumper]

4 hours ago, AndyDD said:

 

Celtic's works rather poorly, as well. Tierney is about it, thus far. 

 

Tierney, McGregor, Forrest.

36 trophies between them.

Not a bad return.

[AndyDD]

18 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Tierney, McGregor, Forrest.

36 trophies between them.

Not a bad return.

Yeah, I like both Forrest and Mcgregor, but neither are on par with Tierney. Besides, isn't the business model to develop players and sell them on at huge profit? 

Could argue they have been important in bringing cash in through prize money. Certainly through Forrest's european habit of crucial goals. Could argue they'd have won a lot of the domestic trophies without them, but that'd be churlish.  Even if we count the three of them on that basis, that's still a grand total of, eh, 3.

For an entire youth system, you want an awful lot more than 3 with only one transfer. 

[mrniaboc]

39 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I think Gilmour will start vs Man Utd tonight.

I'd love to see that, it I don't think he will. Fingers crossed though! 

[Tartan_McCole]

39 minutes ago, AndyDD said:

For an entire youth system, you want an awful lot more than 3 with only one transfer. 

It depends how far back you are going I suppose.

[AndyDD]

2 minutes ago, Tartan_McCole said:

It depends how far back you are going I suppose.

Aye, suppose so, fair point. 

[Tartan_McCole]

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I think Gilmour will start vs Man Utd tonight.

Just in case you've planned your night round it, the United Chelsea game is tomorrow.

[The_Dark_Knight]

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Tierney, McGregor, Forrest.

36 trophies between them.

Not a bad return.

They are playing against teams that are comprised entirely of free transfers

Nothing but tin pot trophies.

Those three have won 0 real trophies.

[The_Dark_Knight]

5 hours ago, AndyDD said:

... There is no false equivalency. I was checking if I remembered the facts correctly. I did. 

I suppose it must be by design; the idea is to produce high quality players through the youth system, right? That is 'the design' of the youth system, surely? The plan, the design, surely cannot be to produce poor players or limited players, and their youth system isn't something that has just happened without any organisation or planning, so it's very much something that is designed to produce quality players. 

It just doesn't work very well. It works really rather poorly. 

Celtic's works rather poorly, as well. Tierney is about it, thus far. 

Also, as of 2018/19Ajax had a turnover of 200 million (euros), whereas Celtic's record turnover is just over 100 million (Pounds). Worth keeping in mind. 

The design is to produce a whole conveyer belt of world class players, or even good players or very good players. 

Yeah, I'd say that Tierney was Celtic's fluke. People might point to McGregor and Forrest, but what exactly have they done? They've won 1000 trophies in Scotland, but that doesn't mean anything. They're playing against teams that have no folding money.

Even Michael Johnston won't turn out to be that good. I think the next generation of players, like Barry Hepburn, etc, will turn out better, as they have had better foundations built into them, from a coaching point of view.

Totally. But how do you think Ajax produced most of that turnover? By selling the players that they produced. Celtic have the means to build academies/schools, dot them in different areas in Scotland, and produce the same calibre of players that Ajax are producing.

[AndyDD]

29 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

The design is to produce a whole conveyer belt of world class players, or even good players or very good players. 

Yeah, I'd say that Tierney was Celtic's fluke. People might point to McGregor and Forrest, but what exactly have they done? They've won 1000 trophies in Scotland, but that doesn't mean anything. They're playing against teams that have no folding money.

Even Michael Johnston won't turn out to be that good. I think the next generation of players, like Barry Hepburn, etc, will turn out better, as they have had better foundations built into them, from a coaching point of view.

Totally. But how do you think Ajax produced most of that turnover? By selling the players that they produced. Celtic have the means to build academies/schools, dot them in different areas in Scotland, and produce the same calibre of players that Ajax are producing.

Well, I think that would be the absolute dream result,  aye, but the design is to produce as many top quality sell-able assets as they can. So it isn't so much a fluke as it is a rare case of the design working to maximum effect. Producing players that can play in your first team and accomplish the objectives of your first team is also going to be part of the design. It isn't to sell them all, I suppose. 

So Forrest and Mcgregor fit that part; they are players that are doing what celtic want their first team players to do, without needing to be paid for in transfer fees. 

Domestic dominance aside, both have played significant roles in teams that have gained prize money from European progress, both Champions League and Europa League. Every further stage reached, every game won, every point earned, equals cash. Forrest has been particularly noteworthy for crucial goals in vital qualification games. That is effective youth policy in action. 

Every team wants it as often as possible and i'm sure Celtic want more of it, like anyone. I would say they should be looking for more than 3, or 2 as it currently stands in their first team. But those three re products of their youth system and they have more than repaid the development costs, at the very least. 

[Squirrelhumper]

1 hour ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

They are playing against teams that are comprised entirely of free transfers

Nothing but tin pot trophies.

Those three have won 0 real trophies.

Some of those teams play 3 at the back, I thought they were world beaters? And to think Celtic managed that with a back 4.

As for free transfers, I must have missed the millions Rangers have spent in the last few years.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Squirrelhumper

[Squirrelhumper]

1 hour ago, Tartan_McCole said:

Just in case you've planned your night round it, the United Chelsea game is tomorrow.

Ha, I've been thinking it's Wednesday all day for some reason.

Which is just as well as I'd be off to Fir Park a night early!

[The_Dark_Knight]

Just now, Squirrelhumper said:

Some of those teams play 3 at the back, I thought they were world beaters? And to think Celtic managed that with a back 4.

Celtic play with a back four. Most of the successful team's do. I would have Scotland play with a back four, in a perfect world.

[Squirrelhumper]

2 hours ago, AndyDD said:

Yeah, I like both Forrest and Mcgregor, but neither are on par with Tierney. Besides, isn't the business model to develop players and sell them on at huge profit? 

 

McGregor will go next summer for a similar amount as KT went for, more than likely to Leicester.

If they get £50m for two youth team players then their youth system if more than vindicated.

[The_Dark_Knight]

Just now, Squirrelhumper said:

McGregor will go next summer for a similar amount as KT went for, more than likely to Leicester.

If they get £50m for two youth team players then their youth system if more than vindicated.

 £25m for McGregor? Maybe if you take out the "M".

Ajax just sold two players for £144m. 

And no, receiving £50m over a period of about ten years (might be longer, when's the last time Celtic sold a player for good money?) Isn't vindication of good coaching, it's vindication that they think they're a buying club, as supposed to what they are.

[The_Dark_Knight]

56 minutes ago, AndyDD said:

Well, I think that would be the absolute dream result,  aye, but the design is to produce as many top quality sell-able assets as they can. So it isn't so much a fluke as it is a rare case of the design working to maximum effect. Producing players that can play in your first team and accomplish the objectives of your first team is also going to be part of the design. It isn't to sell them all, I suppose. 

So Forrest and Mcgregor fit that part; they are players that are doing what celtic want their first team players to do, without needing to be paid for in transfer fees. 

Domestic dominance aside, both have played significant roles in teams that have gained prize money from European progress, both Champions League and Europa League. Every further stage reached, every game won, every point earned, equals cash. Forrest has been particularly noteworthy for crucial goals in vital qualification games. That is effective youth policy in action. 

Every team wants it as often as possible and i'm sure Celtic want more of it, like anyone. I would say they should be looking for more than 3, or 2 as it currently stands in their first team. But those three re products of their youth system and they have more than repaid the development costs, at the very least. 

The design should be, surely, to produce the best players that they can, and yes, to recoup as much transfer fee as they can. If it's good enough for Ajax, etc. But maybe you're right, maybe they don't want to be a selling club, which would explain why they don't produce any players.

Which is a shame as it's having a detrimental effect on the national team. 

[AndyDD]

6 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

The design should be, surely, to produce the best players that they can, and yes, to recoup as much transfer fee as they can. If it's good enough for Ajax, etc. But maybe you're right, maybe they don't want to be a selling club, which would explain why they don't produce any players.

Which is a shame as it's having a detrimental effect on the national team. 

Presumably they want to be both; a club that sells when the offer is right and they are maximising their profit, whilst also producing first team players that can dominate domestically and keep them ticking along in Europe. 

That' ought to be their approach, anyway. And I think it mostly is. But they have done a bit of short term signing this season and are prone to taking the odd loanee from other clubs, which i'd prefer they avoided as much as possible. 

 

[AndyDD]

20 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

McGregor will go next summer for a similar amount as KT went for, more than likely to Leicester.

If they get £50m for two youth team players then their youth system if more than vindicated.

Aye if that comes to pass it's a really good return on another youth product, no argument there. 

 

[The_Dark_Knight]

48 minutes ago, AndyDD said:

Presumably they want to be both; a club that sells when the offer is right and they are maximising their profit, whilst also producing first team players that can dominate domestically and keep them ticking along in Europe. 

That' ought to be their approach, anyway. And I think it mostly is. But they have done a bit of short term signing this season and are prone to taking the odd loanee from other clubs, which i'd prefer they avoided as much as possible. 

 

I don't think they want to produce their own, same with Rangers. They would rather spend millions on a product of another team's youth academy than spent time and effort and money on their own.

Which is shameful.

[0Neils40yarder]

3 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Some of those teams play 3 at the back, I thought they were world beaters? And to think Celtic managed that with a back 4.

As for free transfers, I must have missed the millions Rangers have spent in the last few years.

Got to agree with the dark Knight fanny I'm afraid mate, winning trophies for celtic in Scotland is borderline meaningless 

[ceudmilefailte]

To get back on topic our Serie A and la Liga superstars, Henderson and Burke are both on the bench for their respective teams tonight.

That's not really back on topic though is it?

[Rab The Crab]

Hornby starting again tonight.

[The_Dark_Knight]

4 minutes ago, Rab The Crab said:

Hornby starting again tonight.

Brilliant.

Starting against teams like Brugges and Antwerp, etc, will be great for his development.

I'd put him ahead of McBurnie.

McBurnie wishes that he won't called up, we should contact "Make a wish foundation" and get Steve Clarke to make his wish a reality.