Scottish player transfers

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

1 hour ago, wanderer said:

Bayern have recalled Barry Hepburn from his loan at Queens Park

Can't see him lasting much longer at Bayern if he was unable to stay in the QP team.

[wanderer]

24 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Can't see him lasting much longer at Bayern if he was unable to stay in the QP team.

I think that was more a Queens Park issues, rather than the players issue, and why Bayern have recalled him (he will probably be loaned straight back out to somewhere else, as they are probably aware of Morrison at Wigan and his progress there).

But agree, I suspect he will pop up at someone like Dundee United or Falkirk down the road.

[syecosse]

Nottingham Forest have signed a 18 year old defender from Rangers Jamie Newton. 

[scotlad]

1 hour ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

He wasn't dropped, he got injured and then has been unable to force his way back in, which is somewhat different.

Okay, fair enough, but they haven't exactly been great since then.

You can't blame everything on the goalie but I might have expected someone on Man Utd's radar to have forced his way back into the team but I'm no expert!

[Kirk]

9 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Eh? Tierney played spl for a few seasons before he moved to arsenal. Hes a perfect example of what I am saying.

Even gilmour is debatable. His career is only just starting to really take off since he left Chelsea. It was touch and go there wether he would make it in the epl. Hopefully a few seasons at Brighton will really help his development but personally I don't think being at Chelsea helped him that much. I think he would be much further along had he played a couple of seasons in the English championship or for a lower half epl club when he 18-20.

Mctominays probably the only example of one of our youth players coming through at an elite club and making it to the first team.

 

There is a video of a young Gilmour at Chelsea talking about how much of a step up it was and how much more in depth etc the training and video analysis was, I'm pretty sure the move to Chelsea absolutely made him the player he is. He might not have had the games he wanted there but the training and facilities available everyday would be invaluable to him becoming the player he is now.

[mccaughey85]

37 minutes ago, Kirk said:

There is a video of a young Gilmour at Chelsea talking about how much of a step up it was and how much more in depth etc the training and video analysis was, I'm pretty sure the move to Chelsea absolutely made him the player he is. He might not have had the games he wanted there but the training and facilities available everyday would be invaluable to him becoming the player he is now.

Step up from what? He wasnt playing any first team football at Chelsea or rangers. Maybe the training facilities, youth coaching etc, were a step up from rangers but if he had gotten regular first team football at rangers then would he have developed more than playing youth football at chelsea? Imo he would be much further along in his development had he played a couple of seasons at rangers or in the English championship.

Can you maybe explain why none of our other young players benefit from the so called "step up" that elite clubs provide?

Only mctominay has made the grade in 20 years out of dozens of youngsters.

Elite clubs fail to develop our young players. That's a statistical fact and it surprises me ppl still insist that they should go to these clubs and waste away in their youth set ups.

I could understand the reasoning behind it if there were even a handful of success stories but it's the lower league route that is were our best players have come from.

I also don't see gilmour as anything special yet either. I have seen him look terrible for Norwich and chelsea and he has only really started to excel for Brighton recently. He still has much to prove and personally I think Chelsea stunted his development and only now that hes at a lower epl club is he starting to get the proper first team experience that will turn him into a good player. 

Also I doubt gilmour was ever going to slate the Chelsea youth set up while he was in it which is when the video was made. 

[ger intae them]

you can flip that rationale ……. there’s the dozens and dozens that go the lower league route and don’t make it …… talent should find a path, but you wont convince many that there’s a ‘better’ way. You make your choice and take your chance if it comes. Better coaches at more successful clubs with bottomless resources to focus on development seems a fairly sensible decision for young talent to make.

 

 

 

Edited January 10 by ger intae them

[Diamond Scot]

4 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Step up from what? He wasnt playing any first team football at Chelsea or rangers. Maybe the training facilities, youth coaching etc, were a step up from rangers but if he had gotten regular first team football at rangers then would he have developed more than playing youth football at chelsea? Imo he would be much further along in his development had he played a couple of seasons at rangers or in the English championship.

Can you maybe explain why none of our other young players benefit from the so called "step up" that elite clubs provide?

Only mctominay has made the grade in 20 years out of dozens of youngsters.

Elite clubs fail to develop our young players. That's a statistical fact and it surprises me ppl still insist that they should go to these clubs and waste away in their youth set ups.

I could understand the reasoning behind it if there were even a handful of success stories but it's the lower league route that is were our best players have come from.

I also don't see gilmour as anything special yet either. I have seen him look terrible for Norwich and chelsea and he has only really started to excel for Brighton recently. He still has much to prove and personally I think Chelsea stunted his development and only now that hes at a lower epl club is he starting to get the proper first team experience that will turn him into a good player. 

Also I doubt gilmour was ever going to slate the Chelsea youth set up while he was in it which is when the video was made. 

This debate comes uo every now and then with people on one side pointing to the likes of Robertson and Tierney and those on the other pointing at the likes of Fletcher, McTom and Gilmour.

Just taking Gilmour as an example, I am convinced he wouldnt even have become a 1st team regular at Rangers. Neither OF team are any good at bringing through youth but Rangers in particular have a horrific record.

If you stay in Scotland then theres probably a much higher chance of you becoming a football but imo if you want to be an elite footballer then your chances are significantly improved by getting elite coaching and playing alongside elite people your age and then eventually training and playing with elite players.

An example I always give when talking about the importance of playing at a higher standard is somebody like Stuart Armstrong and the mistake he made against England. At that time he was considered to be a very good player. Had something like 125 appearences for Dundee Utd and 60 odd for Celtic under his belt. He was an established football player however the choice of pass he made was a by product of the oppositon he was used to playing against. Losing the ball the way he did would come to nothing 99% of the time in Scotland but in the EPL it gets punished. Only through getting punished do players learn. Im totally convinced that if the same Stuart Armstrong (in terms of talent) had played 50 games in the EPL he doesnt do that pass.

Ben Doak might have had 50 appearences for Celtic by now but none of them would have been against defenders of a decent standard. So he looks like a superstar going past people with ease. Until he comes up against a proper defender in Europe or for Scotland and all of a sudden none of the stuff he normally does works.

[ProudScot]

10 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Step up from what? He wasnt playing any first team football at Chelsea or rangers. Maybe the training facilities, youth coaching etc, were a step up from rangers but if he had gotten regular first team football at rangers then would he have developed more than playing youth football at chelsea? Imo he would be much further along in his development had he played a couple of seasons at rangers or in the English championship.

Can you maybe explain why none of our other young players benefit from the so called "step up" that elite clubs provide?

Only mctominay has made the grade in 20 years out of dozens of youngsters.

Elite clubs fail to develop our young players. That's a statistical fact and it surprises me ppl still insist that they should go to these clubs and waste away in their youth set ups.

I could understand the reasoning behind it if there were even a handful of success stories but it's the lower league route that is were our best players have come from.

I also don't see gilmour as anything special yet either. I have seen him look terrible for Norwich and chelsea and he has only really started to excel for Brighton recently. He still has much to prove and personally I think Chelsea stunted his development and only now that hes at a lower epl club is he starting to get the proper first team experience that will turn him into a good player. 

Also I doubt gilmour was ever going to slate the Chelsea youth set up while he was in it which is when the video was made. 

Gilmour left Rangers at 15 of course he wasn’t playing 1st team football.

He also made his debut for Chelsea at a younger age than he would have for Rangers. 

[mccaughey85]

10 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

This debate comes uo every now and then with people on one side pointing to the likes of Robertson and Tierney and those on the other pointing at the likes of Fletcher, McTom and Gilmour.

Just taking Gilmour as an example, I am convinced he wouldnt even have become a 1st team regular at Rangers. Neither OF team are any good at bringing through youth but Rangers in particular have a horrific record.

If you stay in Scotland then theres probably a much higher chance of you becoming a football but imo if you want to be an elite footballer then your chances are significantly improved by getting elite coaching and playing alongside elite people your age and then eventually training and playing with elite players.

An example I always give when talking about the importance of playing at a higher standard is somebody like Stuart Armstrong and the mistake he made against England. At that time he was considered to be a very good player. Had something like 125 appearences for Dundee Utd and 60 odd for Celtic under his belt. He was an established football player however the choice of pass he made was a by product of the oppositon he was used to playing against. Losing the ball the way he did would come to nothing 99% of the time in Scotland but in the EPL it gets punished. Only through getting punished do players learn. Im totally convinced that if the same Stuart Armstrong (in terms of talent) had played 50 games in the EPL he doesnt do that pass.

Ben Doak might have had 50 appearences for Celtic by now but none of them would have been against defenders of a decent standard. So he looks like a superstar going past people with ease. Until he comes up against a proper defender in Europe or for Scotland and all of a sudden none of the stuff he normally does works.

Darren Fletcher came through nearly 20 years ago!!

In the last 20 years it's been mctominay and gilmour, thats it and even gilmour isn't really a great example. He has only just started to make the grade in the epl after a failing at Chelsea and Norwich. 

Fair enough I agree rangers have hardly been great at bringing through young Scottish talent but the point was more about gilmour playing football at 18/19/20. I think he would be further ahead in his development had he played English championship or spl for a few seasons. Thats my opinion and I suppose we will never know but what we do know is that only 1 other young player in 20 plus years has been a success at an elite club after coming through their youth set up. 

Does that not tell you everything you need to know about whats best for our young players. 

Also my argument isn't about necessarily staying in Scotland. I don't care if our young players play league1 or English championship etc. As long as it's first team football that has a proper competitive edge. You ever watched highlights of youth football, it's rubbish. I doubt it even compares well to the Scottish championship.

Not sure what your rambling on about with the Armstrong point. He made a mistake v England that anyone could make. The experience he gained at utd and Celtic is what helped him become an epl player. It's about incremental steps, he got experience at utd playing every week and then played for a huge club(Celtic) where the pressure was massive. That development was what allowed him to go on and do well for Southampton. If anything hes another example of why playing lower league football develops a young player.

Not sure I get your point about Ben doak either. Wouldn't you rather he got experience every week at 17/18 even if it's English championship or spl? To me that would be better for him than not playing. The defenders in the English championship would be massively better than the youth players he's playing against in the epl youth leagues. 

Most of the greatest attacking talents spent a season or 2 playing lower league football developing their skills against lesser opponents before stepping up a level.

Guys like robben, mane, ibrahimovic etc all spent seasons getting experience in weaker leagues like the Austrian or Dutch leagues.

I always laugh when ppl think someone like doak is too good to play spl or English championship. I know the excitement goes to ppls heads in here when a talent like doak or gilmour comes along but if you think these guys are guaranteed to be superstars and are too good to slum it at a lower level for a few seasons learning their trade then you are massively mistaken. 

I would say 80 percent of world class players in the last 30 years spent time playing in weaker leagues before they stepped up a level. It's what helps them develop and gain experience. 

I also find it strange you are using Ben doak and Celtic as an example of bypassing the Scottish league. Celtic have had a constant conveyor belt of young players who played there and then went onto bigger things. 

Van dijk, dembele, Armstrong, Tierney, frimpong, Édouard, juranovic. 

Personally I would love to see doak go back on loan to Celtic for a season. I think it would help him develop and hone his game. He's very raw and doesn't always have a great end product. Its highly unlikely he becomes a first team regular at Liverpool until improvements are made to his game. 

[Diamond Scot]

1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

Darren Fletcher came through nearly 20 years ago!!

In the last 20 years it's been mctominay and gilmour, thats it and even gilmour isn't really a great example. He has only just started to make the grade in the epl after a failing at Chelsea and Norwich. 

Fair enough I agree rangers have hardly been great at bringing through young Scottish talent but the point was more about gilmour playing football at 18/19/20. I think he would be further ahead in his development had he played English championship or spl for a few seasons. Thats my opinion and I suppose we will never know but what we do know is that only 1 other young player in 20 plus years has been a success at an elite club after coming through their youth set up. 

Does that not tell you everything you need to know about whats best for our young players. 

Also my argument isn't about necessarily staying in Scotland. I don't care if our young players play league1 or English championship etc. As long as it's first team football that has a proper competitive edge. You ever watched highlights of youth football, it's rubbish. I doubt it even compares well to the Scottish championship.

Not sure what your rambling on about with the Armstrong point. He made a mistake v England that anyone could make. The experience he gained at utd and Celtic is what helped him become an epl player. It's about incremental steps, he got experience at utd playing every week and then played for a huge club(Celtic) where the pressure was massive. That development was what allowed him to go on and do well for Southampton. If anything hes another example of why playing lower league football develops a young player.

Not sure I get your point about Ben doak either. Wouldn't you rather he got experience every week at 17/18 even if it's English championship or spl? To me that would be better for him than not playing. The defenders in the English championship would be massively better than the youth players he's playing against in the epl youth leagues. 

Most of the greatest attacking talents spent a season or 2 playing lower league football developing their skills against lesser opponents before stepping up a level.

Guys like robben, mane, ibrahimovic etc all spent seasons getting experience in weaker leagues like the Austrian or Dutch leagues.

I always laugh when ppl think someone like doak is too good to play spl or English championship. I know the excitement goes to ppls heads in here when a talent like doak or gilmour comes along but if you think these guys are guaranteed to be superstars and are too good to slum it at a lower level for a few seasons learning their trade then you are massively mistaken. 

I would say 80 percent of world class players in the last 30 years spent time playing in weaker leagues before they stepped up a level. It's what helps them develop and gain experience. 

I also find it strange you are using Ben doak and Celtic as an example of bypassing the Scottish league. Celtic have had a constant conveyor belt of young players who played there and then went onto bigger things. 

Van dijk, dembele, Armstrong, Tierney, frimpong, Édouard, juranovic. 

Personally I would love to see doak go back on loan to Celtic for a season. I think it would help him develop and hone his game. He's very raw and doesn't always have a great end product. Its highly unlikely he becomes a first team regular at Liverpool until improvements are made to his game. 

It all depends on what you mean by development. Would a young player gain more experience playing at a lower level? Of course they would. Would that experience help them forge a career in football? More than likely yes. However does playing with and against lesser players help you become an elite player? Thats more questionable.

My point about Armstrong is that even though he had loads of experience with Utd and Celtic, and yes that experience was what put him in the Scotland side, that the level of experience most likely contributed to him making the mistake against England.

Why do players often struggle to make the step up from a lesser league to a better league? Its because everything in the better league is slightly better. Players are fitter, faster, move the ball faster and with more accuracy, more techincal and tactical and punish mistakes. 

My point being that playing competitive football from a young age isnt the only factor and can lead to bad habits. Foden being kept at City is an example where they didnt want him to learn bad habits. Training with the 1st team and getting the odd minute was deemed a better path to elite level.

Im all for loan spells to the Championship etc but one of the main things for a young player is to be in an enviroment where they are given every possible advantage. Big EPL clubs have vast resources. Gilmour talks about things like a dedicated tailored fitness and nutrition plan, individual learning cards highlighting things he needed to work on etc, a weekly DVD showing his performance and comparing movements and things to established players etc. None of that was in place at Rangers because it costs alot of money. 

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

It all depends on what you mean by development. Would a young player gain more experience playing at a lower level? Of course they would. Would that experience help them forge a career in football? More than likely yes. However does playing with and against lesser players help you become an elite player? Thats more questionable.

My point about Armstrong is that even though he had loads of experience with Utd and Celtic, and yes that experience was what put him in the Scotland side, that the level of experience most likely contributed to him making the mistake against England.

Why do players often struggle to make the step up from a lesser league to a better league? Its because everything in the better league is slightly better. Players are fitter, faster, move the ball faster and with more accuracy, more techincal and tactical and punish mistakes. 

My point being that playing competitive football from a young age isnt the only factor and can lead to bad habits. Foden being kept at City is an example where they didnt want him to learn bad habits. Training with the 1st team and getting the odd minute was deemed a better path to elite level.

Im all for loan spells to the Championship etc but one of the main things for a young player is to be in an enviroment where they are given every possible advantage. Big EPL clubs have vast resources. Gilmour talks about things like a dedicated tailored fitness and nutrition plan, individual learning cards highlighting things he needed to work on etc, a weekly DVD showing his performance and comparing movements and things to established players etc. None of that was in place at Rangers because it costs alot of money. 

I say yes it does to the first question you ask, the vast majority of elite players developed by playing against lesser players before making the move up. The stats show that to be true. 

Your pulling out the odd individual player who didn't play lower league as an example. Foden is an exception.

The vast majority of top players played in lower leagues or weaker European leagues before heading to an elite club. 

It's probably well over 80 percent of the top 200 players in the world came through that route. Elite clubs don't often produce top players because they can't afford to risk giving them chances in games where it's unacceptable for them to lose.

I still don't understand the Armstrong point. I am not suggesting he should of played v England and its irrelevant wether him playing spl contributed to his mistake. I am not suggesting young players spend their entire careers stagnating in the spl or English championship. Armstrong moved on from the spl and onto a better league. He managed to do this because he spent his younger years learning and developing rather than being in some epl youth set up getting no proper experience. 

If you feel big epl clubs youth set ups are the best environment for our young players then why has only 1 in 20 years made the grade(mctominay)?

You can have all the dedicated fitness and nutrition plans and dvd video analysis etc but nothing will beat playing competitive football every week against grown men. 

It's basically given us all of our best players and it confuses the hell out of me why ppl want our best talents wasting away in youth set ups that have proven not to work.

Would you say 1 player in 20 years is worthwhile?

Edited January 11 by mccaughey85

[Diamond Scot]

17 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

I say yes it does to the first question you ask, the vast majority of elite players developed by playing against lesser players before making the move up. The stats show that to be true. 

Your pulling out the odd individual player who didn't play lower league as an example. Foden is an exception.

The vast majority of top players played in lower leagues or weaker European leagues before heading to an elite club. 

It's probably well over 80 percent of the top 200 players in the world came through that route. Elite clubs don't often produce top players because they can't afford to risk giving them chances in games where it's unacceptable for them to lose.

I still don't understand the Armstrong point. I am not suggesting he should of played v England and its irrelevant wether him playing spl contributed to his mistake. I am not suggesting young players spend their entire careers stagnating in the spl or English championship. Armstrong moved on from the spl and onto a better league. He managed to do this because he spent his younger years learning and developing rather than being in some epl youth set up getting no proper experience. 

If you feel big epl clubs youth set ups are the best environment for our young players then why has only 1 in 20 years made the grade(mctominay)?

You can have all the dedicated fitness and nutrition plans and dvd video analysis etc but nothing will beat playing competitive football every week against grown men. 

It's basically given us all of our best players and it confuses the hell out of me why ppl want our best talents wasting away in youth set ups that have proven not to work.

Would you say 1 player in 20 years is worthwhile?

We havent produced top players regardless of what route they have taken. Fletcher and Robertson are our only really top players in the last 20 or so years. Both took very different routes.

Im not sure your 80% estimate is anywhere near being accurate. Alot obviously depends on what country you grew up in. If you take the top 5 in last years ballon dor (if we are looking at the elite players). Messi, Mbappe and Rodri have only ever played in top leagues. Haaland and DeBrunye both played in their countries league before moving to a top league when still young. 

If youth football has little value then why does it exist. If all the top clubs believed that then why wouldnt they just sign players and send them out to lower leagues and foreign leagues of a lesser standard? The reward for producing elite talent is massive so why would every single big club in the world have these academies and spend so much money on coaching, nuturion, analysis etc when they could just loan players to Ross County?

I fully believe that loans benefit players. I think Doak should go out on loan however he is totally correct in leaving Celtic to go to Liverpool to increase his chances of getting to the elite level rather than being the next James Forrest (who has made a good living out of football)

 

[Squirrelhumper]

35 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

I think Doak should go out on loan however he is totally correct in leaving Celtic to go to Liverpool to increase his chances of getting to the elite level rather than being the next James Forrest (who has made a good living out of football)

 

That's it for me. 

Would rather see youngsters go and test themselves instead of being a Forrest, Brown etc and just stay in their comfort blanket. 

[ger intae them]

3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

You can have all the dedicated fitness and nutrition plans and dvd video analysis etc but nothing will beat playing competitive football every week against grown men. 

I think I get what you are saying, to a point. And I don’t think there really is that much difference between your belief and what actually happens,  as most (Foden is the exception) go out on loan to lower levels for defined periods….. but are you seriously suggesting you know more about player devt than the experts? This is applicable to Scots, English, or whoever.

[mccaughey85]

3 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

We havent produced top players regardless of what route they have taken. Fletcher and Robertson are our only really top players in the last 20 or so years. Both took very different routes.

Im not sure your 80% estimate is anywhere near being accurate. Alot obviously depends on what country you grew up in. If you take the top 5 in last years ballon dor (if we are looking at the elite players). Messi, Mbappe and Rodri have only ever played in top leagues. Haaland and DeBrunye both played in their countries league before moving to a top league when still young. 

If youth football has little value then why does it exist. If all the top clubs believed that then why wouldnt they just sign players and send them out to lower leagues and foreign leagues of a lesser standard? The reward for producing elite talent is massive so why would every single big club in the world have these academies and spend so much money on coaching, nuturion, analysis etc when they could just loan players to Ross County?

I fully believe that loans benefit players. I think Doak should go out on loan however he is totally correct in leaving Celtic to go to Liverpool to increase his chances of getting to the elite level rather than being the next James Forrest (who has made a good living out of football)

 

Pick out any top club in Europe and look through their team. You will find most of their players either played lower league football or played in a relatively weak European league when they were young players. Very few come through at elite clubs. Haaland and debruyne both prove my point. Both played in relatively weak European leagues before moving up a level.

Elite clubs have youth set ups because they can sell a player on for a small fee to smaller clubs and reap back some money invested in the set up meanwhile if one or two develop into top players they don't miss out. It's just a case of them hoovering up young talents so they don't potentially miss out on someone special. 

Not really ethical in my opinion but money talks and the elite clubs have stupid amounts of money these days.

James Forrest was never good enough to make the step up. If doak is good enough for a top club then he would excel at Celtic in the spl and then move up a level. Theres absolutely no evidence to suggest he's too good for the spl or that he wouldn't benefit from a season or two in the spl. Lots of Celtic players have gone onto big things after spending a few seasons there. Ppl need to calm it down on doak. The lads done relatively nothing in his career to suggest he will make it at Liverpool or any top club. 

Alot of ppl in here would turn their nose up at doak going to Celtic or the English championship which is strange and slightly delusional to think he is already too good for that level when he hasn't really done anything in his career so far.

[mccaughey85]

3 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

That's it for me. 

Would rather see youngsters go and test themselves instead of being a Forrest, Brown etc and just stay in their comfort blanket. 

I am not suggesting that our young players stay in Scotland or the lower leagues in England for their whole career.

I just don't see the point in them going before the age of 21 to a club that won't give them first team football.

[mccaughey85]

19 minutes ago, ger intae them said:

I think I get what you are saying, to a point. And I don’t think there really is that much difference between your belief and what actually happens,  as most (Foden is the exception) go out on loan to lower levels for defined periods….. but are you seriously suggesting you know more about player devt than the experts? This is applicable to Scots, English, or whoever.

Well the stats don't lie, just trawl through any top team and their players mostly played in weaker leagues or lower leagues. I don't think you need to be an expert in player development to see that most top class players come through that route. 

[Diamond Scot]

56 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Pick out any top club in Europe and look through their team. You will find most of their players either played lower league football or played in a relatively weak European league when they were young players. Very few come through at elite clubs. Haaland and debruyne both prove my point. Both played in relatively weak European leagues before moving up a level.

Elite clubs have youth set ups because they can sell a player on for a small fee to smaller clubs and reap back some money invested in the set up meanwhile if one or two develop into top players they don't miss out. It's just a case of them hoovering up young talents so they don't potentially miss out on someone special. 

Not really ethical in my opinion but money talks and the elite clubs have stupid amounts of money these days.

James Forrest was never good enough to make the step up. If doak is good enough for a top club then he would excel at Celtic in the spl and then move up a level. Theres absolutely no evidence to suggest he's too good for the spl or that he wouldn't benefit from a season or two in the spl. Lots of Celtic players have gone onto big things after spending a few seasons there. Ppl need to calm it down on doak. The lads done relatively nothing in his career to suggest he will make it at Liverpool or any top club. 

Alot of ppl in here would turn their nose up at doak going to Celtic or the English championship which is strange and slightly delusional to think he is already too good for that level when he hasn't really done anything in his career so far.

Im sorry but you are just wrong regarding top players for elite clubs. I randomly picked Bayern Munich and 7 out of their starting 11 in the Champions League came through at clubs playing in the top leagues. Now this will vary from club to club however its nowhere near the 80% you state.

You say that elite clubs have youth setups because they can hoard players but thats not the question I asked. I asked why the clubs all play in the youth leagues. Up until this season they could buy as many players as they wanted and then just loan them out to clubs to get what you are saying is rhe best development route. So why werent they doing it. Why werent all the lower leagues and non elite leagues of Europe literally littered with players from the elite leagues? If thats the best way for players to develop why would any club not go down this route?

Look at pretty much any sport and the countries that have the best setups, invest the most into coaching and technology etc tend to always get the best results. Take cycling just as an example. Every country in the world has access to bikes amd yet the UK consistently get gold medals. Why? Because we have the best facilites and coaches. 

Why would football be any different. For every Andy Robertson that drops down the leagues and gets game time there will be thousands who either drop out the game or never make it to any decent level.

Being at a big club is not a guarentee of success however it does give you the best platform to fulfil your potential. This combined with a good loan move to get adult football is the ideal situation imo.

[Kirk]

On 1/10/2024 at 8:34 PM, mccaughey85 said:

Step up from what? He wasnt playing any first team football at Chelsea or rangers. Maybe the training facilities, youth coaching etc, were a step up from rangers but if he had gotten regular first team football at rangers then would he have developed more than playing youth football at chelsea? Imo he would be much further along in his development had he played a couple of seasons at rangers or in the English championship.

Can you maybe explain why none of our other young players benefit from the so called "step up" that elite clubs provide?

Only mctominay has made the grade in 20 years out of dozens of youngsters.

Elite clubs fail to develop our young players. That's a statistical fact and it surprises me ppl still insist that they should go to these clubs and waste away in their youth set ups.

I could understand the reasoning behind it if there were even a handful of success stories but it's the lower league route that is were our best players have come from.

I also don't see gilmour as anything special yet either. I have seen him look terrible for Norwich and chelsea and he has only really started to excel for Brighton recently. He still has much to prove and personally I think Chelsea stunted his development and only now that hes at a lower epl club is he starting to get the proper first team experience that will turn him into a good player. 

Also I doubt gilmour was ever going to slate the Chelsea youth set up while he was in it which is when the video was made. 

As I said it was him who said it was a step up, the training the facilities the I'm depth nature of daily personal analysis of him. 

I'm prepared to take his word that it made him a far better player and improved his game.

Rangers don't exactly have a great record for playing youth and them going on to have great careers.

[ProudScot]

5 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I am not suggesting that our young players stay in Scotland or the lower leagues in England for their whole career.

I just don't see the point in them going before the age of 21 to a club that won't give them first team football.

Does Gilmour not show exactly why you should do it though?

Hes a first team regular in the EPL now at 22, no danger he’d have been that if he hadn’t left Rangers as a teenager 

[Caledonian Craig]

In all honesty it all comes down to individual players. Some players who are naturally-talented and have a lot of the required attributes are not going to learn anything bumming around in the SPL as their levels are often way above what they have to test themselves against. A move to a bigger and more competitive league to test yourself at a higher level is what is required. Or sometimes they develop at a big club and players such as Gilmour, McTominay and in recent years Fletcher fall into this bracket.

However, there are other youngsters not at quite such a high level in their youth who require coaching and gametime to grow to a better standard. A more gradual approach and climb if you will and with that then matches under their belt that can continue to grow to a higher standard. Remaining within SPL football is benificial to them. We have seen this route taken in recent times by McGinn, Robertson, Armstrong, Ferguson and others and it has served them well.

In short there is no right or wrong way it depends on the individual and what their requirements in the development stages of their career is.

Edited January 12 by Caledonian Craig

[N4Footsoldier]

 

On 1/10/2024 at 11:16 AM, mccaughey85 said:

If man utd loan him out straight away then great. An English league 2 side or Scottish championship side that will play him every week would be ideal. But if they just keep him in the youth set up playing youth football every week for a couple of years then I don't believe that will help his career much. The lad looks good enough play lower league football even at 17 and should make sure that he does so that his career doesn't stagnate. Its much better for him than youth football imo. 

Liam Morrison is probably learning more at Wigan this season than he ever will playing in Bayern's youth team.

Just sick of seeing young Scottish talent go to epl sides and never make the grade when I am positive that if they had played a few seasons of spl or league1 in England they would be then ready to jump up to epl level. It's been proven time and again by the fact our top players all went down that route except 1(mctominay).

Saying that Money wise he will have to take the offer because he might never get big bucks again.

I wouldn't underestimate the benefit of him learning his trade further at a youth academy at Man Utd with world class facilities and coaching over arbitrarily playing SPFL football for the sake of 'first team' action. 

Going by the kid's age he is still very much a youth player, and by no means the finished article. I think it would give him the best chance to mature into first team football at an appropriate age. Being exposed to first team football in a borderline part-time team does not necessarily equal a great senior career. Diamonds in the rough like Andy Robertson in that regard don't come along often.

Getting a chance to learn more in a safe environment at such a huge club will give him a a more optimized chance to have a great career longer term.

[gonzohiggy]

I feel fairly well qualified to talk on this topic having moved at 16 from an SPL club to an English premier league club. 
 

There are parts from previous posters I agree with and others I don’t. Generally no one player is the same and player’s development is not linear. I would say that first team football is essential at the right stage in a players development and with the right club. Most players will stay at their parent club from 16 until at least 18. The coaching at the top professional clubs is excellent, the boys are still boys and are developing physically and mentally and they benefit from being around their peers.

For a player who has obvious talent such as Doak a loan could be beneficial but he’s also barely 18 and prior to his injury he’ll have been training with world class players and getting unbelievable day to day experience of working with salah. That is an unbelievable opportunity for a young player and at his age is more beneficial to his potential of being an elite player than going on loan to SPL or championship at the moment. Having said that, there’s a point where that learning needs to be put into practice and he starts to get real experience in first team football. That could be a loan next season for him.

There was talk earlier about clubs “hoarding” young players. This is absolutely the case and it’s getting worse with kids signing at 8 years old but my overriding experience / feeling is that the best players (ie those who have the correct combination of technical ability, mentality, game intelligence and physical ability) invariably find a way to their level regardless of how many players they are competing with. It may take longer but they’ll find a way through.

McGaughey85 makes a valid point in the sense that at a certain point a young player needs to be playing senior football. When that happens totally depends on their own situation physically/ mentally / technically as well their position within their own club. 

Edited January 13 by gonzohiggy

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

39 minutes ago, gonzohiggy said:

I feel fairly well qualified to talk on this topic having moved at 16 from an SPL club to an English premier league club. 
 

There are parts from previous posters I agree with and others I don’t. Generally no one player is the same and player’s development is not linear. I would say that first team football is essential at the right stage in a players development and with the right club. Most players will stay at their parent club from 16 until at least 18. The coaching at the top professional clubs is excellent, the boys are still boys and are developing physically and mentally and they benefit from being around their peers.

For a player who has obvious talent such as Doak a loan could be beneficial but he’s also barely 18 and prior to his injury he’ll have been training with world class players and getting unbelievable day to day experience of working with salah. That is an unbelievable opportunity for a young player and at his age is more beneficial to his potential of being an elite player than going on loan to SPL or championship at the moment. Having said that, there’s a point where that learning needs to be put into practice and he starts to get real experience in first team football. That could be a loan next season for him.

There was talk earlier about clubs “hoarding” young players. This is absolutely the case and it’s getting worse with kids signing at 8 years old but my overriding experience / feeling is that the best players (ie those who have the correct combination of technical ability, mentality, game intelligence and physical ability) invariably find a way to their level regardless of how many players they are competing with. It may take longer but they’ll find a way through.

McGaughey85 makes a valid point in the sense that at a certain point a young player needs to be playing senior football. When that happens totally depends on their own situation physically/ mentally / technically as well their position within their own club. 

Really interesting to get some insight from someone who has been there, thanks for sharing.

How did your journey work out? I hope you managed to stay in the game through your experiences even if not at EPL level.

Out of interest, if you still have links to the game, what is the feeling amongst young Scottish players based at Scottish clubs with regard to player development? Do they believe there is a real pathway to first team and ultimately elite football or is there a perception that development is secondary in Scottish football? Of course every club is different but I get the sense that there is growing distrust of the ability of Scottish clubs to develop elite talent or even to properly prioritise development of our own players.