ParisInAKilt Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: That's true, but in point of fact isn't it also a little disingenuous to compare the relevant supranational governments' approaches to the independence referendums in Scotland and Catalonia? Yeah that's fair also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 33 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said: I see your point but you can't begin to even compare what's happening in Palestine and what happened in East Timor with Catalonia and Scotland. It's the principle I'm getting at. One rule for some ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 6 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said: It's the principle I'm getting at. One rule for some ....... Politicians are generally hypocritical, even the ones who seem alright. That East Timor story is horrendous, don't think I've looked at politics the same since learning what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said: Politicians are generally hypocritical, even the ones who seem alright. That East Timor story is horrendous, don't think I've looked at politics the same since learning what happened. Just pointing out the rather sad hypocrisy of the so-called left in Britain. A classic example being your fat, loud mouth, thicko Labour councillor in Glasgow or Lanarkshire (past and present) who dearly loves his Palestine, Irish and Tibet solidarity events but fervently opposes Scottish independence and enjoys ridiculing Scottish history, heritage and culture. Independence for Kurdistan is the one cause that seems to have divided them. Edited September 17, 2017 by ErsatzThistle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 28 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: That's true, but in point of fact isn't it also a little disingenuous to compare the relevant supranational governments' approaches to the independence referendums in Scotland and Catalonia? The Westminster establishment and Unionist parties did "allow" a referendum then allied with the media that they control used every underhand tactic with a litany of misinformation and threats 24/7. The Spanish Government wouldnt be able to win using those tactics as they dont control the Catalan media/press therefore wont allow a referendum and have sent in the police. The desired outcome is the same although approaches are different. What would the Westminster/Unionist parties approach have been if they didnt have every news outlet at their disposal ? Tanks at George Square again ? And for all intent and purposes there is a media "blackout" of whats going on in Catalonia but not enough for them to be guilty of the accusation - thats the clever bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said: Just pointing out the rather sad hypocrisy of the so-called left in Britain. A classic example being your fat, loud mouth, thicko Labour councillor in Glasgow or Lanarkshire (past and present) who dearly loves his Palestine, Irish and Tibet solidarity events but fervently opposes Scottish independence and enjoys ridiculing Scottish history, heritage and culture. Independence for Kurdistan is the one cause that seems to have divided them. Easy enough to rig it. They might even have done. Margo MacDonald was onto it when she asked for assurances that mi5 wouldn't be involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 29 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: The Westminster establishment and Unionist parties did "allow" a referendum then allied with the media that they control used every underhand tactic with a litany of misinformation and threats 24/7. The Spanish Government wouldnt be able to win using those tactics as they dont control the Catalan media/press therefore wont allow a referendum and have sent in the police. The desired outcome is the same although approaches are different. What would the Westminster/Unionist parties approach have been if they didnt have every news outlet at their disposal ? Tanks at George Square again ? And for all intent and purposes there is a media "blackout" of whats going on in Catalonia but not enough for them to be guilty of the accusation - thats the clever bit. The UK government does not control the media in the sense that you suggest. It doesn't need to. The media are simply part of the ideological state apparatus, along with everything from the education system to the family that ensures ideological compliance. Governments don't control that, culture does. Are you honestly comparing the UK government's actions during the 2014 referendum to what you were saying was coming out of Madrid yesterday? Or was that post just another example of your inability to avoid lazy exaggeration? On 9/16/2017 at 2:42 PM, Ally Bongo said: Spain has threatened to seize Catalan finances in the next 48 hours 700 mayors summoned to court for supporting the referendum Spanish police raid printing firms searching for referendum material Civil Guards have been sent from Madrid to intimidate citizens Spanish police enter Newspaper head office and identify pro independence journalists Spanish prosecutors order police to confiscate pro referendum posters Internet now being censored in Catalonia Not headline news ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: The UK government does not control the media in the sense that you suggest. It doesn't need to. The media are simply part of the ideological state apparatus, along with everything from the education system to the family that ensures ideological compliance. Governments don't control that, culture does. Are you honestly comparing the UK government's actions during the 2014 referendum to what you were saying was coming out of Madrid yesterday? Or was that post just another example of your inability to avoid lazy exaggeration? First paragraph pure pedantry - trying to be the clever arse Second paragraph - maybe you need specs 42 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said: The desired outcome is the same although approaches are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 How many countries have you lived in? Your view that the UK media is "at the government's disposal" suggests not many. The clever arse is Louis Althusser - take it up with him ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 There isn't a free press, irrespective of the Catalonia situation, that's just a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 4 hours ago, DonnyTJS said: How many countries have you lived in? Is there a proven correlation between countries lived in and ability to speak on UK government relationship with the press in the US? Or did you just imply one in an act of sophistry? I've just came back from a 3 day stag-do in Berlin so just storming in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 The implication was 'degrees of freedom' and viewing the degree of press freedom in the UK in a wider context (plus I was falling asleep). If, as Ally Bear suggests, the UK media are at the government's disposal, then the government would never be criticized (which is what occurs in countries where the media is under government control). This isn't to say that the media, on the whole, are anti-Tory (the BBC probably is, mildly) or anti-Westminster, which is why I brought Althusser's more nuanced concept of Ideological State Apparatus into the free-flow of ideas - a fruitful approach, in my view, and I get accused of being a clever arse for my pains... It's enlightening that folk can't bring themselves to acknowledge the difference between Madrid and London in their different approaches to tackling independence. We saw the British Establishment response to a possible Yes vote and it wasn't a mobilization of tanks in George Square, it was panic and semi-appeasement, in the shape of the Vow. Laying the blame for the 55% No vote at the door of a state-controlled media ignores weaknesses in the Yes campaign, and if those are ignored then they could be repeated (although to be fair, I doubt Ally will be put in charge of the campaign). The media was highly influential, but not because its content was dictated by Westminster; more because it's rooted in the same ideological soil. I hope you enjoyed Berlin ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: The implication was 'degrees of freedom' and viewing the degree of press freedom in the UK in a wider context (plus I was falling asleep). If, as Ally Bear suggests, the UK media are at the government's disposal, then the government would never be criticized (which is what occurs in countries where the media is under government control). This isn't to say that the media, on the whole, are anti-Tory (the BBC probably is, mildly) or anti-Westminster, which is why I brought Althusser's more nuanced concept of Ideological State Apparatus into the free-flow of ideas - a fruitful approach, in my view, and I get accused of being a clever arse for my pains... The interaction of the British media and Government/ Unionist parties when the British State is under threat is completely different to their interaction on political policies Surely you are aware of that ? And as i alluded to earlier the Spanish Government cannot use the same tactics because for example - Catalonia has a shit load of Independent media not controlled by Madrid We cant even get a Scottish 6 FFS Edited September 17, 2017 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Cheers it was good, great city to walk around, needs a better sewage system got a bit smelly at times. As for the rest i'll have to capitulate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 Events in Catalonia regards the referendum http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/civil-rights-in-catalonia-at-stake/ A Spanish TV reporter earlier today also urged Kim Jong -Un to drop a nuclear bomb on Barcelona http://www.elnacional.cat/ca/politica/intereconomia-anima-kim-jong-un-a-disparar-un-missil-nuclear-contra-barcelona_193230_102.html Police today removing pro referendum banners in private balconies And as i alluded to earlier - is this the reason we are not hearing much about it ? http://www.newsnet.scot/nns-archive/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6195:tories-admit-secret-eu-meeting-but-deny-deal-to-block-scottish-membership&catid=6:general&Itemid=89 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumnio Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Quite staggering to read what is going on right now, to use a cliche, it's not what you'd expect in Western Europe or the 1st world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibi Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 It's shocking that the coverage has been so sparse. Where the BBC have had anything at all on their website, it has talked of "separatists". Not biased language at all. Can they not say "independence supporters"? Does it really stick in their throats that much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Raiding warehouses and confiscating posters, removing banners from private property, police storming government buildings and the attempt to deny a referendum taking place. A true affront to democracy. A disgrace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Alibi said: It's shocking that the coverage has been so sparse. Where the BBC have had anything at all on their website, it has talked of "separatists". Not biased language at all. Can they not say "independence supporters"? Does it really stick in their throats that much? That's just not true. The main story on the website uses 'independence' eight times (including the phrase "pro-independence activists") and the term 'separatist' once ("Catalan separatist MP"). Edited September 20, 2017 by DonnyTJS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibi Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 59 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said: That's just not true. The main story on the website uses 'independence' eight times (including the phrase "pro-independence activists") and the term 'separatist' once ("Catalan separatist MP"). That's a new story which I hadn't seen until now. Previously it's been all separatists and playing down of the numbers at that demonstration last weekend. Maybe they are paying attention to the criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 1 hour ago, DonnyTJS said: That's just not true. The main story on the website uses 'independence' eight times (including the phrase "pro-independence activists") and the term 'separatist' once ("Catalan separatist MP"). Twice, you can control+F and put the word in and it'll match them for you. Other bit is " Catalonia's separatist government is defying a Constitutional Court order to halt the planned 1 October vote, which has been condemned by the Madrid government as illegal. " Obviously just a point of pedantry, but you know the board that could be parlayed into anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Yeah, I did ctrl+f and it definitely only threw up the one usage - I imagine the article is being regularly updated and I should have added an "at this moment" disclaimer ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Top feature on Scotland Tonight, STV the now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 On 09/16/2017 at 1:29 PM, Ally Bongo said: Yeah But this is something quite insidious If what is happening in Catalonia right now was happening say in Turkey would it be completely ignored ? Are favours being called in for the Spanish "interventions" in 2014 ? Apparently it would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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