Catalonia & the UK media blackout of events - Page 5 - Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere - Tartan Army Message Board Jump to content

Catalonia & the UK media blackout of events


Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Toepoke said:

It'll be interesting to see how it measures up to our Yes vote of 38% of the electorate.

 

Strangely enough this 37-38% figure was appearing all over twitter yesterday ...

Rather unusual i thought as the normal perception is 55-45 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Strangely enough this 37-38% figure was appearing all over twitter yesterday ...

Rather unusual i thought as the normal perception is 55-45 

 

In most circumstances I think anyone who includes the "did not votes" in the final result of referendums or elections to try and make the result look either more or less significant based on their own prejudices are arseholes.  If people don't vote, they don't vote and you can't make any assumptions on what their viewpoint was.

This is a different situation though where one side in the argument is taking an active stance in not voting - if not doing something can be considered as active - and so the numbers voting Si as a percentage of the electorate rather than of those who voted is hugely important as it will demonstrate what the mandate is.

It all gets muddied though with ballot boxes being seized but I'd take that figure of 700,000 with a big pinch of salt.   I followed events through the day and the seized ballot boxes seemed to happen during the morning and there was some communication later on that 96% of polling stations were open.

If they get anything approaching 50% of the turnout for Si it will be hard to argue that there isn't a popular mandate for independence. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, aaid said:

This is a different situation though where one side in the argument is taking an active stance in not voting - if not doing something can be considered as active - and so the numbers voting Si as a percentage of the electorate rather than of those who voted is hugely important as it will demonstrate what the mandate is.

That's exactly why I did mention the 38% in Scotland (most people who bring that up tend to ignore that by that measure less than half the electorate voted No).

 

Going by current published figures the results are actually remarkably similar:-

2014: 1.6m Yes out of 4.2m = 38%

2017: 2.0m Si out of 5.3m = 38%

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

That's exactly why I did mention the 38% in Scotland (most people who bring that up tend to ignore that by that measure less than half the electorate voted No).

 

Going by current published figures the results are actually remarkably similar:-

2014: 1.6m Yes out of 4.2m = 38%

2017: 2.0m Si out of 5.3m = 38%

 

Yes, but you cannot extrapolate that to claim that the other 62% were for No.  It is likely that a lot of Yes voters yesterday didn't get to vote or were too frightened to vote, and that's before you take into account the seized ballot boxes.

I suspect that there are a lot more Yes voters in Catalonia today than there were on Saturday.  The tactics of the Spanish government will be the last straw for many who were maybe not that bothered one way or the other.  Spain might have managed to have a legitimate view and maybe now have the referendum run as an official poll had they just kept out of it and maintained a peaceful line that it was unofficial, but I don't think there is much chance of that now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Yes, but you cannot extrapolate that to claim that the other 62% were for No.  It is likely that a lot of Yes voters yesterday didn't get to vote or were too frightened to vote, and that's before you take into account the seized ballot boxes.

I suspect that there are a lot more Yes voters in Catalonia today than there were on Saturday.  The tactics of the Spanish government will be the last straw for many who were maybe not that bothered one way or the other.  Spain might have managed to have a legitimate view and maybe now have the referendum run as an official poll had they just kept out of it and maintained a peaceful line that it was unofficial, but I don't think there is much chance of that now.

I totally agree, but as a statto I found it quite an interesting coincidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The turnout may have been affected by no voters choosing to not vote. But i have read that around 1300 out of 2300 polling stations were prevented from operating. THAT surely impacts greatly on yes voters being denied their vote. So i think overall the Catalan Government have total legitimacy in calling this a vert valid referendum and verdict in favour of Independence.

Edited by buckielugger
Mis-speling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, EddardStark said:

I think the Spanish authorities have boosted the independence campaign quite significantly with their actions. However a 42% turnout cannot be relied on. Can't see how a legitimate referendum can now be avoided. 

You're probably right. The Spanish government can claim there boycott was successful. The Catalans can claim the number is low due to ballots being seized and people not voting out of fear of police brutality.

What can't be denied is that this now needs to be resolved in a proper manor. In an ideal world the Spanish government would accept the need for a proper debate and referendum. If not the Catalan government has every right to fight this to the international community and even UDI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Debian said:

Hopefully Spain, like the UK, stand firm and deny this.

Deny self determination ?

You do realize you are advocating fascism with that thinking ?

First they came for the Catalans ..............

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, drew said:

You're probably right. The Spanish government can claim there boycott was successful. The Catalans can claim the number is low due to ballots being seized and people not voting out of fear of police brutality.

What can't be denied is that this now needs to be resolved in a proper manor. In an ideal world the Spanish government would accept the need for a proper debate and referendum. If not the Catalan government has every right to fight this to the international community and even UDI

Yep. The best resolution to this will be a proper legally binding vote like we had.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firefighters protecting people from the police - quite unbelievable scenes. Another great example of how social media is being used to highlight what's really happening on the ground during events like this and not spun by mass media outlets to further their own agendas. 

Good luck Catalonia. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The referendum was legally organised by the Catalan Government and approved by their Parliament.

Just because a ruling state objects to it, that doesn't make it illegitimate. How else could USA now exist? Or many many countries around the world who have gained their statehood off larger ruling states. The UN's International Court of Justice ruled that Kosovo's independence referendum was legal and an inalienable right to self-determination despite Serbia declaring illegal. Catalonia  (and another Scottish one) would equally be covered by that ruling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

In theory I support any decentralisaing of power.

Question though, what regions get to become independent and what don’t? 

Edinburgh and London? 

This is the age old question.  I think the answer is obvious but difficult to write down.

Clearly a street, district, mountain, city, Edinburgh is not a country or cultural, national polity.  It's really just common sense that needs to be applied.

Usually people ask this question comparing 'polities' they know fine well are not equivalent for their own reasons.  Basically the deliberate absurdity of the equivalence negates the question.

Edited by PapofGlencoe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, kumnio said:

Elections are won or lost by voters, you don't vote, then you don't count. Simple as that, idiots spinning it any other way can GTF. 

And if a storm trooper cracks your head and that of your 80 year old mothers while trying to vote, then seizes the ballot boxes. 

They can GTF as well, aye?

J

Edited by Bristolhibby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...