Larky Masher Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Source? Why are people trying to get to Germany and not stopping once they are out of harms way? Why are some of those who got to Denmark now trying to get to Sweden and Finland because they feel that the benefits in Denmark aren't high enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 A significant proportion of them wouldn't die if they were sent back to their own country they are economic migrants not refugees. By that logic a significant proportion WOULD be butchered if they were sent back. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Why are people trying to get to Germany and not stopping once they are out of harms way? Why are some of those who got to Denmark now trying to get to Sweden and Finland because they feel that the benefits in Denmark aren't high enough? Burds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auchinyell Sox Change Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Burds.Macca migrants ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 By that logic a significant proportion WOULD be butchered if they were sent back. J Why? In 2014 70% of the "arrivals" in Italy were single men from Mali, Nigeria, Gambia, Senegal and Pakistan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe545 Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Why are people trying to get to Germany and not stopping once they are out of harms way? Why are some of those who got to Denmark now trying to get to Sweden and Finland because they feel that the benefits in Denmark aren't high enough? Denmark isn't that welcoming to asylum seekers whereas Sweden offers permanent residency to all Syrians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Why? In 2014 70% of the "arrivals" in Italy were single men from Mali, Nigeria, Gambia, Senegal and Pakistan. I'm struggling to believe those figures. However from what I understand many men from sub Saharan Africa were labourers in Libya who suddenly became "hunted" and in extreme danger as the country fell apart (again). Should they have run the gauntlet to get home or jump on a boat and risk drowning in the Med getting out of war torn Libya? J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Why should folk from, say Scotland, be allowed to go abroad and work pretty much anywhere they want and these folk can't. Are we inherently better than them and deserving of better treatment? Most of them will be filling a skills shortage not just picking a country and trying there hand at whatever job they can get. What do you think would happen if we did? For a start open borders would mean we could get any type of person moving here from the decent hard working folk to those with serious criminal pasts. Do you really want more murderers, rapists etc here. It's bad enough just now that they can come from any part of Europe with little or no checks to there criminal past. It's a real complicated issue and to see people taking a polarising view of good v bad, liberal v racist is pretty depressing but that's political debate these days. Ultimately the UK is a very good country. One of the best in the world with stability, potential, protection, English language, wealth, deep rooted liberalism of a manner of strains. I can't blame anyone from a poorer nation wanting to come here as it's better than 90% of countries in the world. It's not arrogance. It's not nationalism or chest beating it's just basic facts. For all the flaws it has like any country the good outweighs the bad massively. UK, Germany, Scandinavian countries are the "promised land" over other EU countries. You have a terrible confusing complicated war going on in Syria. Not started by Tony Blair (boo hiss) but by centuries of Shia v Sunni hatred, a despotic dictatorship, intensified by the growth of a militant fascist brach of islam which has been encouraged by the Wahhbism beliefs of those bastards from the House of Saud. We also have a collapse of border countrols in Libya so there are 2 recognised ways to get into the European Union which can be followed by social media like Facebook with communication using whatsapp too. Again I don't blame people for wanting to get to a better country. If we were to have open borders then our public services, support networks and health services would cease to work as there would be a huge influx of people not planned for. Budgets are set for x amount of citizens years in advance. Germany have really messed up. Very unGerman. Very saintly. Very stupid. As now there is a rush to get there as they have said 500 000 will be taken in with no real planning. Borders are now being closed. The EU is built on freedom of movement and that is being eroded due to this crisis. The number of flights from Middle Eastern countries to Turkey soared after the German announcement as people saw a way of getting into EU. A massive carrot was dangled. I think the UK Governments policy of taking people from refugee camps is correct. There are millions of refugees in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan who need help. Actions from Germany only encourages people traffikers and economic migrants. Ultimately countries are built on selfish needs of the people who live there already. We have a cushy existence in the West compared to developing or under developing countries. For every banner held up at a football game for 5 mins (as people pat themselves on the back) and every politician cringely saying they would house a refugee (still not seen it happen yet) it has to be recognised that mass influxes of people with no support, jobs, housing brings conflict with people already there. Look at the "liberal" bastions of Scandinavia. Denmark has a right wing populist party as it's 2nd largest. Sweden has a right wing populist party making a breakthrough in parliament now. We can never rest on our laurels and think our country is somehow welcoming and better than others. Great lost wish others would understand its not a black and white issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitre Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 It's a real complicated issue and to see people taking a polarising view of good v bad, liberal v racist is pretty depressing but that's political debate these days. Ultimately the UK is a very good country. One of the best in the world with stability, potential, protection, English language, wealth, deep rooted liberalism of a manner of strains. I can't blame anyone from a poorer nation wanting to come here as it's better than 90% of countries in the world. It's not arrogance. It's not nationalism or chest beating it's just basic facts. For all the flaws it has like any country the good outweighs the bad massively. UK, Germany, Scandinavian countries are the "promised land" over other EU countries. You have a terrible confusing complicated war going on in Syria. Not started by Tony Blair (boo hiss) but by centuries of Shia v Sunni hatred, a despotic dictatorship, intensified by the growth of a militant fascist brach of islam which has been encouraged by the Wahhbism beliefs of those bastards from the House of Saud. We also have a collapse of border countrols in Libya so there are 2 recognised ways to get into the European Union which can be followed by social media like Facebook with communication using whatsapp too. Again I don't blame people for wanting to get to a better country. If we were to have open borders then our public services, support networks and health services would cease to work as there would be a huge influx of people not planned for. Budgets are set for x amount of citizens years in advance. Germany have really messed up. Very unGerman. Very saintly. Very stupid. As now there is a rush to get there as they have said 500 000 will be taken in with no real planning. Borders are now being closed. The EU is built on freedom of movement and that is being eroded due to this crisis. The number of flights from Middle Eastern countries to Turkey soared after the German announcement as people saw a way of getting into EU. A massive carrot was dangled. I think the UK Governments policy of taking people from refugee camps is correct. There are millions of refugees in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan who need help. Actions from Germany only encourages people traffikers and economic migrants. Ultimately countries are built on selfish needs of the people who live there already. We have a cushy existence in the West compared to developing or under developing countries. For every banner held up at a football game for 5 mins (as people pat themselves on the back) and every politician cringely saying they would house a refugee (still not seen it happen yet) it has to be recognised that mass influxes of people with no support, jobs, housing brings conflict with people already there. Look at the "liberal" bastions of Scandinavia. Denmark has a right wing populist party as it's 2nd largest. Sweden has a right wing populist party making a breakthrough in parliament now. We can never rest on our laurels and think our country is somehow welcoming and better than others. A fine post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I'm struggling to believe those figures. However from what I understand many men from sub Saharan Africa were labourers in Libya who suddenly became "hunted" and in extreme danger as the country fell apart (again). Should they have run the gauntlet to get home or jump on a boat and risk drowning in the Med getting out of war torn Libya? J http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9560982/the-invasion-of-italy/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgowmancity Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Most people in the UK would want to go to USA / Canada / Australia / New Zealand regardless of France / Germany etc being closer. I'd want to get to a place where i could find work and provide for my family. Rather than register in the first country possible and be held in a squalid holding camp because the country has no additional capacity in the short term, due to hundreds of thousands of refugees already being there. Exactly - they would WANT too. That's not being a refugee, that's being an economic migrant - refugee's are looking for safe refuge, once they have that, they are no longer refugee's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Exactly - they would WANT too. That's not being a refugee, that's being an economic migrant - refugee's are looking for safe refuge, once they have that, they are no longer refugee's. Spot on. A refugee is one seeking refuge from their own country. That being the case it is the first country they reach which in many of their cases was probable a Mediterranean country. But as we know they have spread out and trekked across Europe through many safe havens and for me as soon as they do that they no longer qualify as refugees by the letter of the law but become opportunists not seeking refuge any longer but looking for free entry into their country of choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Not as pathetic as you insinuating that these refugees are coming here purely to claim benefits. No. Those that have trekked across Europe through about ten countries all of which are safe havens and are trying to get through the Euro Tunnel. How exactly would you describe them? They have got where they are passing through many countries of refuge but refused to say there. Why? The fact they have continued onwards and pinpointing Britain I ask a simple question - why? They are seeking refuge are they not? That is the soul reason they escaped Syria and refuge could have been had in any of the many countries that they passed through but they rejected it. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindimoo Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I love the way all of us who are safe in our wee island can possibly know what is going through a person's mind when they are making life or death decisions for their spouses and chIldren. We are fortunate that we can make these comments freely and with a rational mind. I wouldn't give a what others were thinking I should do if I was getting my family out of Syria etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 No. Those that have trekked across Europe through about ten countries all of which are safe havens and are trying to get through the Euro Tunnel. How exactly would you describe them? They have got where they are passing through many countries of refuge but refused to say there. Why? The fact they have continued onwards and pinpointing Britain I ask a simple question - why? They are seeking refuge are they not? That is the soul reason they escaped Syria and refuge could have been had in any of the many countries that they passed through but they rejected it. Why? Because countries like The Lebanon and Turkey can't cope. Equally EU countries like Greece and Italy can't cope and they are skint. We are one EU with open boarders (between members) this is a European humanitarian problem an a European solution is required. Also if one country wants your labour (Germany) and another country you are living hand to mouth albeit in safety under canvas in a tent city on the boarder with Syria, would you not want to move your family to a country that would house you and allow you meaningful employment? J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Because countries like The Lebanon and Turkey can't cope. Equally EU countries like Greece and Italy can't cope and they are skint. We are one EU with open boarders (between members) this is a European humanitarian problem an a European solution is required. Also if one country wants your labour (Germany) and another country you are living hand to mouth albeit in safety under canvas in a tent city on the boarder with Syria, would you not want to move your family to a country that would house you and allow you meaningful employment? J That does not describe a refugee though. In my experiences of old refugees such as Vietnamese boat people never went on a pilgrimage through various countries and fight to get out of 'safe countries' for a better life. That, I know, will sound harsh to most here but sit back and think about this. They escaped from their home country because they feared for their lives so once in Europe (even if you say give Greece and Italy a miss for the reasons said) then the next countries after that are safe as is France which is a massive step up from fearing for their lives. That is what refugees seek - safety. However, it seems that this has now changed as we have refugees who aren't only seeking safety but an improved life. That aim is surely taking them above being mere refugees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auchinyell Sox Change Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Because countries like The Lebanon and Turkey can't cope. Equally EU countries like Greece and Italy can't cope and they are skint. We are one EU with open boarders (between members) this is a European humanitarian problem an a European solution is required. Also if one country wants your labour (Germany) and another country you are living hand to mouth albeit in safety under canvas in a tent city on the boarder with Syria, would you not want to move your family to a country that would house you and allow you meaningful employment? J Don't want to be pedanticBut border ; not boarder As in " I fondly recall my days as a boarder at Eton when I was buggered nightly by my fag Fortescue minor " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 No. Those that have trekked across Europe through about ten countries all of which are safe havens and are trying to get through the Euro Tunnel. How exactly would you describe them? They have got where they are passing through many countries of refuge but refused to say there. Why? The fact they have continued onwards and pinpointing Britain I ask a simple question - why? They are seeking refuge are they not? That is the soul reason they escaped Syria and refuge could have been had in any of the many countries that they passed through but they rejected it. Why? Better prospects of employment? Family already here? I don't know. Neither do you however you can't expect the closest countries to accept the bulk of the refugees when we helped cause the crisis in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 That does not describe a refugee though. In my experiences of old refugees such as Vietnamese boat people never went on a pilgrimage through various countries and fight to get out of 'safe countries' for a better life. That, I know, will sound harsh to most here but sit back and think about this. They escaped from their home country because they feared for their lives so once in Europe (even if you say give Greece and Italy a miss for the reasons said) then the next countries after that are safe as is France which is a massive step up from fearing for their lives. That is what refugees seek - safety. However, it seems that this has now changed as we have refugees who aren't only seeking safety but an improved life. That aim is surely taking them above being mere refugees. Thing is within the EU we have one country breaking at the seams with no money (Greece) and another desperate for young fit workers (Germany). We live in a European Union. We can't wash our hands and say, "Bad luck Greece, it's your problem. Oh and pay back your bailout money". You are right, we live in different times, and until we regress back to independent pull up the ladder states out with the EU, we have to step up to our obligations (both politically and as humanitarians) to offer assistance to those in need. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Don't want to be pedantic But border ; not boarder As in " I fondly recall my days as a boarder at Eton when I was buggered nightly by my fag Fortescue minor " Cheers fella. And how about the spelling for somebody taking over a ship in battle? J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Better prospects of employment? Family already here? I don't know. Neither do you however you can't expect the closest countries to accept the bulk of the refugees when we helped cause the crisis in the first place. That is still missing the point. They escaped Syria for their own safety as is what a refugee does. They don't leave the country saying I am going where I can get a job and if they do then are they really refugees then? Their own safety is what they have left Syria first and foremost for I am presuming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 One or two EU countries can't be expected to deal with all the people just because they are the closest countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 One or two EU countries can't be expected to deal with all the people just because they are the closest countries. Even (like I said earlier) you excuse Italy and Greece then you come into other countries such as Switzerland, Spain, Luxembourg, France, Austria etc etc etc. No wars in any of those countries so certainly safe havens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 One or two EU countries can't be expected to deal with all the people just because they are the closest countries. Actually those are the EU rules, whether you agree with them or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Actually those are the EU rules, whether you agree with them or not. I doubt they were put in place with a humanitarian crisis like this is mind. It's not good for the EU countries affected or the people going to them. Seems reasonable for all the EU countries to come together and agree to take their fair share and then maybe we wouldn't have the "problem" of people going through various countries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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