Scotland Players In Action

[Bannannan]

40 years ago they had Beckenbaur,Overath,Grabowski,Müller,Netzer.Miles less physical as the present team who play with three centre halves.

[aaid]

Okay, 70 years ago then. Mind you, if you want to see a good example of someone kicking lumps out an opponent, Berti Vogts against Cruyff in the 74 final is a good place to start.

Point being I don't believe the German team is notorious for their physicality, if anything they have a tendency to go down a bit too easy.

Also don't buy that Bannan was outstanding in that game either.

[Caledonian Craig]

Hold on a mo. Getting confused here. We are having this 'not physical enough' conversation on the same day that people on here are getting agitated because Jack Harper was left out of the U-21 side because he supposedly isn't physical enough? So which is it folks? Ricky Srbagia correct for going the physical route and shunning Harper and Strachan wrong for selecting slight Bannan or Srbagia wrong and Strachan right?

[Bannannan]

They are the fittest team always at world cups.They have the best physical trainers and doctors.Who else would buy land and build there own training centre in the middle of Brazil?The level of their desire is shown by the attitude of many who thought Löw took too long to win it!!! Everybody has a favourite player,mines is wee Barry,doesn't mean I don't understand him not getting in the team.He doesn't defend well and our system,i would play slightly differently of course,demands a lot defensively from everyone.

[ParisInAKilt]

Both are wrong.

I like Bannan but would have picked Armstrong ahead of him.

Don't need to say why Sbragia is wrong.

Edited March 24, 2015 by ParisInAKilt

[Caledonian Craig]

Both are wrong.

I like Bannan but would have picked Armstrong ahead of him.

Don't need to say why Sbragia is wrong.

Fair enough.

[aaid]

Hold on a mo. Getting confused here. We are having this 'not physical enough' conversation on the same day that people on here are getting agitated because Jack Harper was left out of the U-21 side because he supposedly isn't physical enough? So which is it folks? Ricky Srbagia correct for going the physical route and shunning Harper and Strachan wrong for selecting slight Bannan or Srbagia wrong and Strachan right?

First of all, it's not because he isn't physical enough, its because he isn't good enough.

Secondly, for an A team qualifier against the World Champions then its all about results, for an U19 match - any U19 match - then it should be about player development. That's why Sbragia is wrong.

[Caledonian Craig]

First of all, it's not because he isn't physical enough, its because he isn't good enough.

Secondly, for an A team qualifier against the World Champions then its all about results, for an U19 match - any U19 match - then it should be about player development. That's why Sbragia is wrong.

First of all fair enough and in your opinion he isn't good enough.

Agree on the second part.

[Jagtag]

First of all, it's not because he isn't physical enough, its because he isn't good enough.

Secondly, for an A team qualifier against the World Champions then its all about results, for an U19 match - any U19 match - then it should be about player development. That's why Sbragia is wrong.

This.

[Marky]

Okay, 70 years ago then. Mind you, if you want to see a good example of someone kicking lumps out an opponent, Berti Vogts against Cruyff in the 74 final is a good place to start.

Point being I don't believe the German team is notorious for their physicality, if anything they have a tendency to go down a bit too easy.

Also don't buy that Bannan was outstanding in that game either.

Totally agree with this. Historically the Germans have been far bigger cheats than the Latin players who nevertheless seem to get a much worse reputation.

I also agree with being totally confused by this notion that some people have that Bannan had some sort of outstanding game that night. Folk don't half get all tartan spectacled about these things. The way I remember that night, for the first 30 minutes and most of the last 20 odd minutes, Scotland were hopeless. Especially that first half hour when we were like rabbits caught in the headlights. For the other 30 odd minutes of the game we competed with and at times outplayed the Germans. During that period Scotland had lots of good performers and Bannan was undoubtedly one of them, but he was no better than any other player and was equally as honkin during the bad spells.

[aaid]

He was also subbed after 58 minutes.

[Marky]

He was also subbed after 58 minutes.

I rest my case.

[Goozay]

Totally agree with this. Historically the Germans have been far bigger cheats than the Latin players who nevertheless seem to get a much worse reputation.

I also agree with being totally confused by this notion that some people have that Bannan had some sort of outstanding game that night. Folk don't half get all tartan spectacled about these things. The way I remember that night, for the first 30 minutes and most of the last 20 odd minutes, Scotland were hopeless. Especially that first half hour when we were like rabbits caught in the headlights. For the other 30 odd minutes of the game we competed with and at times outplayed the Germans. During that period Scotland had lots of good performers and Bannan was undoubtedly one of them, but he was no better than any other player and was equally as honkin during the bad spells.

My memory of that game is that our midfield was pretty poor in the first half, apart from Bannan who was able to regularly break up the German's play. But after he went off we actually played better.

Plus it was September and he's hardly set the heather alight since.

[Squirrelhumper]

I know you have a distrust of statistics, but I don't know why.

I would say it's a perfect illustration of how not applying common sense can lead to a misinterpretation.

Even the most basic common sense would tell you that Jordan Rhodes can't be compared to Lionel Messi, so if any "statistic" puts the two together then it's obviously not an accurate interpretation.

It's not that I distrust statistics, I use them every day in work.

But football isn't as simplistic as that.

For example. You stated last month Matt Kennedy had a poor game for Cardiff statistically yet their fans and sponsor named him MOTM.

You can dress stats up anyway you want.

[Squirrelhumper]

He competed just fine physically with the notoriously physical Germans in Dort

mund so I don't buy it.

Talk about stereotypes being outdated!

[aaid]

It's not that I distrust statistics, I use them every day in work.

But football isn't as simplistic as that.

For example. You stated last month Matt Kennedy had a poor game for Cardiff statistically yet their fans and sponsor named him MOTM.

You can dress stats up anyway you want.

You need to take Sponsors MOM awards with a real pinch of salt.

About 10 years ago, I was fortunate enough through work to be guests of the match sponsors at Stamford Bridge for a match against Newcastle. When they spoke to us about picking the man of the match, we were basically told to pick who we wanted to get our photo taken with. It was a pretty straightforward win for Chelsea with no real standout and we picked Zola, who had scored one of the goals so was hardly controversial.

A few years ago however, a mate of mine was getting married and as he was a lifelong Exeter City fan, he decided to have his stag in Exeter and would take in their home game against Oldham. I couldn't make it myself but based on what happened, I wish I had.

There was around a dozen or so that went down to Exeter for the weekend and they discovered that for something like £50 a head they could sponsor the match, which would give them pre and post match hospitality and they would also pick the MoM.

By all accounts it was a pretty awful game, and when with about 15 minutes to go they were asked to pick the MoM, they were stumped. Exeter were then leading 1-0, with the only goal being a penalty scored by Ryan Harley. He was one of their better players so it seemed like a safe bet.

Oldham then equalised but in the dying minutes Exeter got another penalty, as Harley stepped up to take it, one of my mates said to another "what if he misses?" And of course he missed.

Almost immediately after, the announcer read out in a sarcastic tone - "and the sponsors MoM is Ryan Harley", at which point the Exeter fans started booing until the ref blew for time.

I think there was a bit of tension between the fans and the management anyway but it all escalated with the manager criticising the fans in the press, the Exeter equivalent of the TAMB going into meltdown, manager threatening to resign, etc.etc until it all died down.

Don't believe me, here's some links to the local press from the time. Things like this are why I love football.

http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Grecians-boss-blasts-fans-booing-Harley/story-11805026-detail/story.html

http://www.westbriton.co.uk/Boo-boys-make-team-s-job-harder/story-11416766-detail/story.html

Edited March 25, 2015 by aaid

[davew]

It's not that I distrust statistics, I use them every day in work.

But football isn't as simplistic as that.

For example. You stated last month Matt Kennedy had a poor game for Cardiff statistically yet their fans and sponsor named him MOTM.

You can dress stats up anyway you want.

I didn't say MK had a poor game, I said, from looking at the statistics, he didn't stand out.

That is, he didn't see much of the ball, he didn't contribute much in an attacking sense, and he didn't make any mistakes.

The highlights clip is here, you can see MK at about the 1 minute mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-js_wLTyemE

My guess is, Cardiff had been terrible, but a new player comes in, looks like a decent signing and so gives everyone a wee lift. So he gets MOTM.

[davew]

You can dress stats up anyway you want.

Maybe this is what we disagree about.

Stats can be used to give a false impression, but combined with a little football knowledge and some common sense, stats are a useful tool.

[Squirrelhumper]

Maybe this is what we disagree about.

Stats can be used to give a false impression, but combined with a little football knowledge and some common sense, stats are a useful tool.

Never said they weren't.

You however constantly refer to that website as justification for saying a player had a good game when it doesn't paint full picture.

[davew]

It doesn't paint the full picture, no. But that's why I always write the name of the website.

"whoscored/Opta stats says so and so had a good game" so people know to take it with a pinch of salt

[fringo]

Didn't want to start a whole new thread but a mention for Andy Robertson

http://virginmediapresents.com/#all/euro-qualifiers

Watch out for Europe’s best young players

Our formation, since you ask, is a highly flexible 4-1-3-2. Strong in defence, purposeful in attack. A winning formula, we reckon…

Thibaut Courtois (BELGIUM)

The Chelsea shot-stopper is without doubt the best young keeper in the world. And at 22, he won’t even reach his peak for another five years at least.

Dani Carvajal (SPAIN)

The Real Madrid right back has impressed with his no-nonsense approach to the art of defending. His thou-shalt-not-pass rugged appearance is belied only by his equally adept attacking prowess.

Stefan de Vrij (NETHERLANDS)

Why Louis van Gaal didn’t swoop to sign the Dutch centre back after a splendid World Cup is anyone’s guess. Having moved from Feyenoord to Lazio, his defensive nous has improved and the cultured De Vrij should form the backbone of the Dutch defence for the next decade.

Kaan Ayhan (TURKEY)

Although born and raised in Germany, Schalke centre back Ayhan has decided to play for the country of his forebears, Turkey. Although only 20, Ayhan reads the game like an old pro and is also comfortable on the ball – think Rio Ferdinand in his pomp.

Andrew Robertson (SCOTLAND)

Following a breakthrough season for Dundee United, Scottish left-back Robertson signed for Hull City and hasn’t looked back. Though a dependable defender, his attacking forays are especially noteworthy. He has excelled in his four appearances for his country and in his debut season in the Barclays Premier League.

William Carvalho (PORTUGAL)

The Portuguese man mountain has been nothing short of sensational this campaign. The defensive midfielder has helped Sporting Lisbon go on a barnstorming run in Portugal’s top division – he’s also a permanent fixture in the national side.

Isco (SPAIN)

The stylish Real Madrid midfielder has really arrived this season. He was influential in Madrid’s long unbeaten run (which took in the victorious FIFA Club World Cup) and has firmly established himself in the Spanish national side. Still only 22, the comparisons to Zinedine Zadine do not overstate Isco’s talent.

Koke (SPAIN)

Replacing Xavi in the Spanish midfield was never going to be easy. But the tenacious playmaker Koke has fitted seamlessly into the Spanish side. After a glorious season at Atletico Madrid in 2013/14, Koke has gone from strength to strength.

Kevin De Bruyne (BELGIUM)

Oh, how Mourinho must regret not persevering with De Bruyne. Since selling the Belgian attacking midfielder to Wolfsburg, the fiery De Bruyne has taken the Bundesliga by storm.

Memphis Depay (NETHERLANDS)

Depay has been closely linked with Manchester United – aren’t all players these days? The PSV winger is being touted as the next Arjen Robben, and if he turns out to be half as good as that then he will be some player.

Romelu Lukaku (BELGIUM)

The Belgian striker is among the goals again at Everton, so expect to see him start for the Red Devils against Cyprus – possibly alongside the equally rejuvenated Christian Benteke.

Edited March 26, 2015 by fringo

[aaid]

Courtois and de Bruyne in the same team. Problematic.

[fanatyk]

Barry Douglas made a huge progress since playing for Dundee United I think.

He is a regular player for 2nd team in the league and has just scored fantastic goal vs. Legia Warszawa in the most important game of the season for Lech. In front of 42k spectators who went absolutely mental after that free-kick

I think he's doing well. Whether he is Scotland national team quality already is another thing though.

[davew]

According to bert kassies, the Polish league is roughly at the same level as the Scottish league.

Legia Warsaw seem to do roughly as well as Celtic in Europe, and Lech Poznan seem to do roughly as well as a team like Aberdeen.

So, to try and put it into perspective, Barry Douglas is doing well at a team roughly equivalent to Aberdeen.

I would imagine that puts him 'on the radar', but not much more.

[davew]

It's not a mistrust of statistics, but you seem to put some form of religious faith in them, hence claiming that Kevin McDonald would be called up to a squad soon purely on the basis of some stats that can be interpreted as him being the best passer in the English Championship when you admit you really haven't seen him play for Wolves.

Opta stats - or whatever - are useful but they do not tell you the full story. Thankfully football is not a game solely of set play rehearsed moved like Baseball, American Football or Basketball. While I know that teams will practice set moves and organisation, it is largely a game of improvisation. I think there are legions of people trying to work out how you can apply Moneyball to football - I know I did when I read it - but I'm not convinced you can.

I'm going to bring this up again, because the moneyball man, Billy Beane, was in the news yesterday.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/mar/26/why-billy-beane-was-right-to-avoid-the-epl-and-work-with-az-alkmaar

In many ways, it’s a perfect fit. AZ are traditional overperformers in the Dutch top-flight. They won the league in 2009 when the coach was current Manchester United boss, Louis van Gaal. One of the ways AZ gained an advantage over rivals was their use of data analysis: Van Gaal is a firm believer in statistics, while hardly anyone else in Holland is (it’s why no-one has ever asked him properly about the subject). The lack of Dutch interest in Moneyball, the book or the film, sums that up: the increasing role of data in football may be the first tactical revolution that the Dutch, usually early-adopters, have missed.

...

“Billy has been crazy about soccer for a while, and this is a good compromise to dip his foot in the water,” says Kuper who, since writing Soccernomics, described as the soccer version of Moneyball, has got to know Beane. “I wouldn’t be amazed if he ends up working in football full-time one day.”

...

The obvious quick win for Beane would be to help AZ in dead-ball situations, such as corners or free-kicks. This is where soccer looks most like a baseball game, and the conversion rate from such opportunities is very low. Cristiano Ronaldo, for example, has not scored from his last 54 free-kicks. It is a long-held Soccernomics theory that direct free-kicks should often be passed to a team-mate, given that a wall of opponents provides a cluster of players that can quickly be bypassed.