HS2 Fiasco

[Caledonian Craig]

If Scots Unionists wonder why independence-seeking Scots are so unhappy being ruled by Westminster just look to the utter and complete disastrous fiasco that is HS2.

The fabled high speed rail link from London only going to North England has cost billions of pounds and looks like it may not even happen. If the money spent is not enough of an eye-opener think of the thousands of people forced off their land some being shifted out of homes they have had for decades to make way for the building of the train lines. Think of the scars already left on the countryside with forests and nature reserves lost to make way for something that now has every chance of not happening. 

The irony is listening to unionist parties beefing about the ferries which cost next to nothing compared to HS2. Sheer hypocrites.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[Toepoke]

It has been an ill thought out disaster. The money spent could have made a massive difference to the existing rail network.

 

[ger intae them]

Is it not the case that, similar to the Elizabeth line, that it isn’t really anything particularly new, just a big upgrade at colossal cost saving about 10 mins (ish) travel time. Truth is upgrades have to happen but are pushed or downplayed by the politicians of the time to further an agenda. Then time moves on and they defer or reduce extent of the modernisation.

[Caledonian Craig]

18 minutes ago, ger intae them said:

Is it not the case that, similar to the Elizabeth line, that it isn’t really anything particularly new, just a big upgrade at colossal cost saving about 10 mins (ish) travel time. Truth is upgrades have to happen but are pushed or downplayed by the politicians of the time to further an agenda. Then time moves on and they defer or reduce extent of the modernisation.

No this is on a whole different scale. It looks set to not even happen despite working already having been done where many hundreds of people have been forced off their land (despite protests) and greenbelt land bulldozed all for what and at what cost?

[Toepoke]

46 minutes ago, ger intae them said:

Is it not the case that, similar to the Elizabeth line, that it isn’t really anything particularly new, just a big upgrade at colossal cost saving about 10 mins (ish) travel time. Truth is upgrades have to happen but are pushed or downplayed by the politicians of the time to further an agenda. Then time moves on and they defer or reduce extent of the modernisation.

Having used the Elizabeth line for the first time recently I'd say it's made a huge difference to travelling into and around London. I doubt HS2 would deliver anywhere near the same benefit, especially when you factor in the enormous physical and environmental cost.

 

[ger intae them]

Elizabeth line is an upgrade…… but not sure how they ever got the mammoth cost of building new stations and tunnels to save a few mins. Correct me if wrong but I’d be surprised if it allows you to do anything you couldn’t do before……. air conditioned and more direct (depending on where you’re going) but not opening up anything new.

[Hertsscot]

46 minutes ago, ger intae them said:

Elizabeth line is an upgrade…… but not sure how they ever got the mammoth cost of building new stations and tunnels to save a few mins. Correct me if wrong but I’d be surprised if it allows you to do anything you couldn’t do before……. air conditioned and more direct (depending on where you’re going) but not opening up anything new.

And what do people do with those extra few minutes, buy another coffee, scroll through social media, find they've got longer to hang about for another train?

[Toepoke]

1 hour ago, ger intae them said:

Elizabeth line is an upgrade…… but not sure how they ever got the mammoth cost of building new stations and tunnels to save a few mins. Correct me if wrong but I’d be surprised if it allows you to do anything you couldn’t do before……. air conditioned and more direct (depending on where you’re going) but not opening up anything new.

I suppose it is, but then HS2 is merely an upgrade to an existing service as well.

 

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, Toepoke said:

Having used the Elizabeth line for the first time recently I'd say it's made a huge difference to travelling into and around London. I doubt HS2 would deliver anywhere near the same benefit, especially when you factor in the enormous physical and environmental cost.

 

Lets be honest thats all that really matters to the current UK  government isn’t it. 

‘Levelling up’ , utter bullshit peddled by snake oil salesmen and lapped up by the gullible. 

Meanwhile, not content with wasting money equivalent to the GDP of a small country , the next bright levelling up idea is to slash inheritance tax. 
 

[vanderark14]

But but but the ferries THE FUCKING FERRIES 😆 

[Malcolm]

Ferries a shambles run by muppets, HS2 a shambles run by muppets.

[Hertsscot]

6 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Lets be honest thats all that really matters to the current UK  government isn’t it. 

‘Levelling up’ , utter bullshit peddled by snake oil salesmen and lapped up by the gullible. 

Meanwhile, not content with wasting money equivalent to the GDP of a small country , the next bright levelling up idea is to slash inheritance tax. 
 

Quite how slashing inheritance tax helps social mobility is quite beyond me. I'm not an economist but this will cut tax revenue so presumably has to be made up either by cuts to public services or by other taxes going up.

Similarly promise to keep triple lock on pensions tells us a lot about his priorities. Keep the Daily Mail happy, keep elderly Tory voters on side but they've also weakened their commitment to net zero so if you're under forty you'll be reaping the consequences. Sunak has no moral leadership. Popular policies aren't wrong per se but he's just doing the easy thing rather than the right thing, short termism is the curse of politics.

[Caledonian Craig]

9 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Ferries a shambles run by muppets, HS2 a shambles run by muppets.

Ferries costing maybe 1% of HS2.

Ferries situation hasn't lead to many, many people kicked off their land to make way for it. Ferries has not destroyed acres of greenbelt land for nothing. Ferries needed doing whereas HS2 is no more than a Tory vanity project.

 

[StirlingEgg]

Was wondering about this too. Given that we are still part of the UK it should be reported in terms of the impact on Scotland; at the very least due to the sum involved and how that affects spending available across the UK. The daily brass neck of telling us there's no money left for the stuff that helps us all while at same time making it obvious how billions are misspent.

Supposedly initial cost for HS2 was 33 billion and now it's 100. Does anyone know if part of this goes on to Scotland’s spending as a % of the UK population? I'm never sure if our 'deficit' that's always highlighted as a key issue includes this kind of thing. 

[TDYER63]

18 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Quite how slashing inheritance tax helps social mobility is quite beyond me. I'm not an economist but this will cut tax revenue so presumably has to be made up either by cuts to public services or by other taxes going up.

Similarly promise to keep triple lock on pensions tells us a lot about his priorities. Keep the Daily Mail happy, keep elderly Tory voters on side but they've also weakened their commitment to net zero so if you're under forty you'll be reaping the consequences. Sunak has no moral leadership. Popular policies aren't wrong per se but he's just doing the easy thing rather than the right thing, short termism is the curse of politics.

👍👍

93% of estates dont incur Inheritance tax but thats clearly not enough. It’s despicable that poor wee Poppy will be taxed on £100k of the £1.1 mio left by mummy and daddy. 

[Squirrelhumper]

10 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Ferries costing maybe 1% of HS2.

Ferries situation hasn't lead to many, many people kicked off their land to make way for it. Ferries has not destroyed acres of greenbelt land for nothing. Ferries needed doing whereas HS2 is no more than a Tory vanity project.

 

Ferries are needed, they've been an absolute disaster though. 

Group from my local were meant to be in Arran the other week, booked on a ferry. Turned up, knocked back, waited until next one - no ferry. Couldn't get over that day. Golf course lost out on a party of 20, restaurant lost out on a party of 20, nights digs for nothing. Tried again next day and finally got on but couldn't get home when they arrived due to you've guessed it, a cancelled ferry!

Happens on a weekly basis without fail. Getting to the stage where it's too much hassle to plan a trip to the islands. 

HS2 is an absolute staggering waste of money/huge waste of money that should see some do jailtime the sheer scale of corruption but i hate it when folk underplay just how much of an impact the shocking level or incompetence the full ferry fiasco has been. 

[TDYER63]

2 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Ferries are needed, they've been an absolute disaster though. 

Group from my local were meant to be in Arran the other week, booked on a ferry. Turned up, knocked back, waited until next one - no ferry. Couldn't get over that day. Golf course lost out on a party of 20, restaurant lost out on a party of 20, nights digs for nothing. Tried again next day and finally got on but couldn't get home when they arrived due to you've guessed it, a cancelled ferry!

Happens on a weekly basis without fail. Getting to the stage where it's too much hassle to plan a trip to the islands. 

HS2 is an absolute staggering waste of money/huge waste of money that should see some do jailtime the sheer scale of corruption but i hate it when folk underplay just how much of an impact the shocking level or incompetence the full ferry fiasco has been. 

Completely agree. Its not enough just to say at least the money is being spent on something that is needed when its been a total calamity .
Of course political opponents will be maximising it to their benefit but that doesn’t mean they are entirely wrong. Whataboutery isnt a great example here , the SG may not be wasting money to quite the same degree as HS2 , but its still substantial and people living on the islands  pay tax and have livelihoods, they deserve better . 

[Squirrelhumper]

42 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Completely agree. Its not enough just to say at least the money is being spent on something that is needed when its been a total calamity .
Of course political opponents will be maximising it to their benefit but that doesn’t mean they are entirely wrong. Whataboutery isnt a great example here , the SG may not be wasting money to quite the same degree as HS2 , but its still substantial and people living on the islands  pay tax and have livelihoods, they deserve better . 

Exactly my point. 

Surprised at how many folk are happy to downplay it and compare it to Westminster. 

Sad day when you're using them as a yardstick. Both HG2 and the Ferries reek of negligence and dodgy deals. 

[Hertsscot]

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Exactly my point. 

Surprised at how many folk are happy to downplay it and compare it to Westminster. 

Sad day when you're using them as a yardstick. Both HG2 and the Ferries reek of negligence and dodgy deals. 

Tbh it never does any harm to own up to mistakes, things that you've got wrong or could have done better. Ferries does fit into that category as far as I can see. I think it's difficult for the SNP and Greens to do this as they know they'll get panned in the short term but beyond that I think they should be less defensive and own up to mistakes. However when Tories attack SNP on the issue they aren't clever because they have also mismanaged public money on a massive scale and the same could be said of Labour with regards to PFI.

[Hertsscot]

7 hours ago, StirlingEgg said:

Was wondering about this too. Given that we are still part of the UK it should be reported in terms of the impact on Scotland; at the very least due to the sum involved and how that affects spending available across the UK. The daily brass neck of telling us there's no money left for the stuff that helps us all while at same time making it obvious how billions are misspent.

Supposedly initial cost for HS2 was 33 billion and now it's 100. Does anyone know if part of this goes on to Scotland’s spending as a % of the UK population? I'm never sure if our 'deficit' that's always highlighted as a key issue includes this kind of thing. 

I've seen it claimed that HS2 is not affecting Scottish taxpayer's but is this really so? If expenditure is added to the national debt don't we get some of that dumped on us?

[aaid]

11 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I've seen it claimed that HS2 is not affecting Scottish taxpayer's but is this really so? If expenditure is added to the national debt don't we get some of that dumped on us?

In a roundabout way, Scotland gets Barnett consequentials for HS2, however those consequentials along with the core cost for HS2 are funded by issuing government debt.

The Scottish Government gets to choose what it wants to spend that money on, but it’s not free, it still has to be repaid and will still form part of our debt.  

[Hertsscot]

31 minutes ago, aaid said:

In a roundabout way, Scotland gets Barnett consequentials for HS2, however those consequentials along with the core cost for HS2 are funded by issuing government debt.

The Scottish Government gets to choose what it wants to spend that money on, but it’s not free, it still has to be repaid and will still form part of our debt.  

Cheers, that confirms what I suspected. We may not fund it directly but nonetheless pay indirectly. I also remember seeing some modelling about the economic impact of HS2 and iirc Scotland didn't gain and in some areas like NE it actually had a noticeable negative impact.

[StirlingEgg]

4 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Exactly my point. 

Surprised at how many folk are happy to downplay it and compare it to Westminster. 

Sad day when you're using them as a yardstick. Both HG2 and the Ferries reek of negligence and dodgy deals. 

I'm not sure it's always a case of downplaying it but in some instances frustration at the conclusions being drawn ie 'Scotland shouldn't be independent because they can't sort out the ferries'. Somehow the perceived status quo is preferable (UK govt in charge) even though the dodginess and £ is potentially on a far greater scale. 

The comparison is made when it feels like issues are treated as a uniquely Scottish problem, even if Scotgov departments should be doing better and criticism is justified. 

Wonder how things would have turned out if that ferry contract had been awarded abroad. Plenty of seethe no doubt. They must dread the weather forecasts as any cancellation treated as another failure. 

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

On 9/24/2023 at 4:49 AM, ger intae them said:

Elizabeth line is an upgrade…… but not sure how they ever got the mammoth cost of building new stations and tunnels to save a few mins. Correct me if wrong but I’d be surprised if it allows you to do anything you couldn’t do before……. air conditioned and more direct (depending on where you’re going) but not opening up anything new.

Used it first time few weeks back

looking at the map its got a huge difference in cross london -east:west commute

i only used it for heathrow to paddington/central london ; and compared to extortionate heathrow express ( i read most expensive in europe ; cost per distance) and the antiquated picaddily line ; 50 mins / no luggage space - moving sardine can - was way better ; efficient and cheaper

[Hertsscot]

32 minutes ago, StirlingEgg said:

I'm not sure it's always a case of downplaying it but in some instances frustration at the conclusions being drawn ie 'Scotland shouldn't be independent because they can't sort out the ferries'. Somehow the perceived status quo is preferable (UK govt in charge) even though the dodginess and £ is potentially on a far greater scale. 

I think your comment is spot on. Some indy supporters can get very defensive for those reasons. The reality is that all governments will make poor decisions from time to time. Scottish government make poor decisions, big deal. The same is true of the UK Government (in spades), the same is true of any government. 

To my mind Indy is more likely to get more competent government as we choose them as opposed to getting whoever England votes for and it will be easier to get rid of them if they're not doing the job well.