HS2 Fiasco

[Squirrelhumper]

Like clockwork, the Arran ferry broke down today.

[Squirrelhumper]

55 minutes ago, StirlingEgg said:

They must dread the weather forecasts as any cancellation treated as another failure. 

Didn't have the weather as an excuse today. Most cancelled ferries (to Arran anyway) haven't been weather related. 

[StirlingEgg]

33 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Didn't have the weather as an excuse today. Most cancelled ferries (to Arran anyway) haven't been weather related. 

Looks like it just exacerbates the problem though; one out of action long term so high winds etc can further reduce capacity. 

[Squirrelhumper]

1 hour ago, StirlingEgg said:

Looks like it just exacerbates the problem though; one out of action long term so high winds etc can further reduce capacity. 

Biggest issue is aging fleet and years of delays.

[StirlingEgg]

7 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Biggest issue is aging fleet and years of delays.

That's it and I don't think anyone is disputing that. However the ferry issue is already an open goal that just seems to get wider every time there's service disruption. Even when the new ferries are in action there will still be cancellations for whatever reason, such is the nature of living on an island. I'm not saying it's ok or acceptable but it's how the conclusions are framed that's so galling. It feels like there's a real drive to hammer home a sense of Scotland’s incompetence.

I am at the stage of being a defensive indy person! 🙄 Not sure if it's paranoia but I see the derision or casual talking us down everywhere. Whether it's about devolved areas of governance or reporting on the rugby/football; any reason to talk us down is rife. When reading about the latest HS2 story, I felt the same as Caledonian Craig, I didn’t comment to defend the ferry situation. The Edinburgh trams have been a focus again and something else reported as solely an SNP problem. 

 

 

 

[Bzzzz]

39 minutes ago, StirlingEgg said:

That's it and I don't think anyone is disputing that. However the ferry issue is already an open goal that just seems to get wider every time there's service disruption. Even when the new ferries are in action there will still be cancellations for whatever reason, such is the nature of living on an island. I'm not saying it's ok or acceptable but it's how the conclusions are framed that's so galling. It feels like there's a real drive to hammer home a sense of Scotland’s incompetence.

I am at the stage of being a defensive indy person! 🙄 Not sure if it's paranoia but I see the derision or casual talking us down everywhere. Whether it's about devolved areas of governance or reporting on the rugby/football; any reason to talk us down is rife. When reading about the latest HS2 story, I felt the same as Caledonian Craig, I didn’t comment to defend the ferry situation. The Edinburgh trams have been a focus again and something else reported as solely an SNP problem. 

 

 

 

The thing with this subject is that it's very personal to people, I take it personally when I hear this constant "Scotland's shite" narrative from the BBC and other outlets, it enrages me and it's difficult to reign in reaction. 
I also find it difficult to cope with that people will happily and quietly let this pish wash over them, this is personal and this is why people react angrily. Trouble is the british state media/propaganda machine is so powerful we really need to be on our toes ALL the time but I still dispute the need for a "nicey nicey" approach, play them at their own game IMO. 

FTU

[Squirrelhumper]

I don't think you;ll get many people here disagreeing with that. Some are a bit more objective, we are far from without our own problems and we can't blame all of them on Westminster unfortunately. Some of the decisions/policy are entirely the SG's own doing. 

I think ignoring that or underplaying it has led to the SG get in too deep on certain issues that are way out of sync with the electorate. 

[StirlingEgg]

2 hours ago, Bzzzz said:

The thing with this subject is that it's very personal to people, I take it personally when I hear this constant "Scotland's shite" narrative from the BBC and other outlets, it enrages me and it's difficult to reign in reaction. 
I also find it difficult to cope with that people will happily and quietly let this pish wash over them, this is personal and this is why people react angrily. Trouble is the british state media/propaganda machine is so powerful we really need to be on our toes ALL the time but I still dispute the need for a "nicey nicey" approach, play them at their own game IMO. 

FTU

Glad it's not just me then 😏

Although I'm not sure we can get away with not being 'nicey nicey' going by the full blown whitey that ensues after we step out of line...

 

[TDYER63]

3 hours ago, StirlingEgg said:

That's it and I don't think anyone is disputing that. However the ferry issue is already an open goal that just seems to get wider every time there's service disruption. Even when the new ferries are in action there will still be cancellations for whatever reason, such is the nature of living on an island. I'm not saying it's ok or acceptable but it's how the conclusions are framed that's so galling. It feels like there's a real drive to hammer home a sense of Scotland’s incompetence.

I am at the stage of being a defensive indy person! 🙄 Not sure if it's paranoia but I see the derision or casual talking us down everywhere. Whether it's about devolved areas of governance or reporting on the rugby/football; any reason to talk us down is rife. When reading about the latest HS2 story, I felt the same as Caledonian Craig, I didn’t comment to defend the ferry situation. The Edinburgh trams have been a focus again and something else reported as solely an SNP problem. 

 

 

 

Its very difficult not to be defensive. I sometimes think I am the only bugger that cares within my group of friends hence the reason I am probably on here so much.

A lot of what is going on will be totally unnoticed by most people , but when you do start to notice the way Scotland is condescendingly treated its hard to ignore. Unfortunately that does then lead to paranoia and being overly defensive . 
This isnt helpful  as it just looks like crazy nationalist reaction to people who are not switched onto politics. You need to pick your battles and be honest when things have gone wrong. I personally think we have more chance of being listened to if we do.
Despite what we  like to think, we are not a passionate nation, folk want facts and answers and security. Its a big call for a lot of people plus they don’t realise how much the SG is being systematically put down. 

I really dont know where we are just now. No man’s land it would seem, but this country would never go to war for something as insignificant as independence. 

[StirlingEgg]

36 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Its very difficult not to be defensive. I sometimes think I am the only bugger that cares within my group of friends hence the reason I am probably on here so much.

A lot of what is going on will be totally unnoticed by most people , but when you do start to notice the way Scotland is condescendingly treated its hard to ignore. Unfortunately that does then lead to paranoia and being overly defensive . 
This isnt helpful  as it just looks like crazy nationalist reaction to people who are not switched onto politics. You need to pick your battles and be honest when things have gone wrong. I personally think we have more chance of being listened to if we do.
Despite what we  like to think, we are not a passionate nation, folk want facts and answers and security. Its a big call for a lot of people plus they don’t realise how much the SG is being systematically put down. 

I really dont know where we are just now. No man’s land it would seem, but this country would never go to war for something as insignificant as independence. 

Yeah it is difficult to address people's wariness over uncertainty and concrete answers. Again ideal for the UK to use this to their advantage when in reality uncertainty about the future is always there. There is no safe status quo. There's always a demand for Scotgov or SNP to show their hand on various topics, inc the route to independence itself so then it can easily be shot down. 

I went to a debate here in 2014 where the speakers were Patrick Harvie, Adam Tomkins, Dame Anne McGuire and Bruce Crawford. Tomkins was thoroughly unpleasant, dismissive of Scotland and got heckled quite a bit. Anne McGuire just came out with tired old soundbites. Both Harvie and Crawford spoke well (I was biased obviously) but what struck me about Harvie at that point was how sensible and measured he was in explaining that both govts would end up taking a pragmatic approach. He highlighted that some of the questions couldn't be answered until independence was actually voted for and at that point both govts would have to agree on stuff rather than the posturing happening beforehand. I could accept that then and still do. How do you get other folk to do the same is the problem. Plus the fact that the current UK govt have no interest or capacity to negotiate with anyone about anything. 

[Bzzzz]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

Its very difficult not to be defensive. I sometimes think I am the only bugger that cares within my group of friends hence the reason I am probably on here so much.

A lot of what is going on will be totally unnoticed by most people , but when you do start to notice the way Scotland is condescendingly treated its hard to ignore. Unfortunately that does then lead to paranoia and being overly defensive . 
This isnt helpful  as it just looks like crazy nationalist reaction to people who are not switched onto politics. You need to pick your battles and be honest when things have gone wrong. I personally think we have more chance of being listened to if we do.
Despite what we  like to think, we are not a passionate nation, folk want facts and answers and security. Its a big call for a lot of people plus they don’t realise how much the SG is being systematically put down. 

I really dont know where we are just now. No man’s land it would seem, but this country would never go to war for something as insignificant as independence. 

I agree, we are neither passionate nor brave. I find it utterly embarrassing that my own country voted AGAINST it's own independence because it was feart. The "union" really has done a hell of a job on fowk here. 

[Shaundy]

Having Union jocks to fill their pockets while deliberately idling has led to a culture of “look how shite we are” 

looks like an absolute piss take to me. 
 

when the Chunnel opened the Thatcherite government where telling everyone they were going to match the German and French high speed rail network construction. 
there were gonna be high speed trains from Glasgow and Cardiff to Cologne , Paris and the rest . Knew it was a lie then and the north has retreated to after the midlands of England and Wales and and Scotland have returned to the back of beyond. If only we’d shut up. 

[Hertsscot]

3 hours ago, Bzzzz said:

I agree, we are neither passionate nor brave. I find it utterly embarrassing that my own country voted AGAINST it's own independence because it was feart. The "union" really has done a hell of a job on fowk here. 

I may have told this story before. Day after the referendum I went into my school in Essex. English teacher in my classroom told me that he'd won £20 because, in his words, he knew the Scots would bottle it.

[TDYER63]

14 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I may have told this story before. Day after the referendum I went into my school in Essex. English teacher in my classroom told me that he'd won £20 because, in his words, he knew the Scots would bottle it.

This has been posted on here before, it is a section of a much longer piece by AA Gill in The Times , written a few days before the referendum. He was married to Amber Rudd for many years, not exactly your screaming Nat. Reading the whole article still makes me feel very sad. 
 

I should come clean and declare that if I had a vote, I would vote for independence in a heartbeat, and if Scots take what is theirs I’ll be the first in the queue for a passport. But like all expats I do not have a vote, and our view looking back is more tweedy and heathery and smells more of shortbread than that of people who have to live there. I do know that making a nation is more than just your pension and your water rates, your fear about a currency and whether or not you’ll be able to get the BBC. A country isn’t just for life, it’s for all the lives to come, and the final lesson from history is not actually Scots, but from just over the way.

Ireland had a far more fraught and aggressive struggle for independence. They did not have oil and they don’t even have a fishing fleet, they’ve got second-rate whiskey and tweed and, finally, they gained a grudging and penurious independence without the EU, with a currency that was tied to the pound, and they immediately fell into a vicious civil war and then a depression. The new Eire had precious little goodwill from London or the continent. The Republic will be 100 years old in eight years, and if they had a referendum and were asked “Look, you’ve had a century of this, wouldn’t you rather come back and be part of the UK again?” do you imagine there would be a single vote for yes? Because whatever happens, it is always better to be yourself.

And when you ask, “Will it be different the morning after?” well, everything will be different and how fabulously exciting will that be? And if you have a vote, how will you be able to turn to your grandchildren in years to come and say: “Well, I did have the chance to right an old wrong, but actually I couldn’t be bothered. I was a bit scared.” 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by TDYER63

[Shaundy]

9 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I may have told this story before. Day after the referendum I went into my school in Essex. English teacher in my classroom told me that he'd won £20 because, in his words, he knew the Scots would bottle it.

Did they though? Lots of us didn’t get to vote because like your self, I assume, I live where the Uk spends the most. The people registered in Scotland got to vote. 
In addition the EU residents were allowed to vote as I believe they weren’t in the brexit vote. We know the EU people were told to vote No in the Scotland independence vote in order to remain in the EU as an Independent Scotland would get kicked out of the EU. 
the postal vote advance information given to baroness mummy Davidson completes the uk stink over the referendum. And like the linesman at Wembley in 66 we will be reminded of the result so long as they can .

[Squirrelhumper]

35 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I may have told this story before. Day after the referendum I went into my school in Essex. English teacher in my classroom told me that he'd won £20 because, in his words, he knew the Scots would bottle it.

Sounds like he bottled it if he only won £20. 

[Shaundy]

7 hours ago, StirlingEgg said:

Yeah it is difficult to address people's wariness over uncertainty and concrete answers. Again ideal for the UK to use this to their advantage when in reality uncertainty about the future is always there. There is no safe status quo. There's always a demand for Scotgov or SNP to show their hand on various topics, inc the route to independence itself so then it can easily be shot down. 

I went to a debate here in 2014 where the speakers were Patrick Harvie, Adam Tomkins, Dame Anne McGuire and Bruce Crawford. Tomkins was thoroughly unpleasant, dismissive of Scotland and got heckled quite a bit. Anne McGuire just came out with tired old soundbites. Both Harvie and Crawford spoke well (I was biased obviously) but what struck me about Harvie at that point was how sensible and measured he was in explaining that both govts would end up taking a pragmatic approach. He highlighted that some of the questions couldn't be answered until independence was actually voted for and at that point both govts would have to agree on stuff rather than the posturing happening beforehand. I could accept that then and still do. How do you get other folk to do the same is the problem. Plus the fact that the current UK govt have no interest or capacity to negotiate with anyone about anything. 

Your last line is so pivotal. 
the uk has never been positive in its decolonisation, dismantling of the empire. Often to their own detriment because of the bloody mindedness of some of these private school nutters. Singapore is my favourite example of orcsbridge types trying to fuk a people over . That turned out shite for the five million Singaporeans didn’t it. 

[Bzzzz]

3 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Sounds like he bottled it if he only won £20. 

😂

[Toepoke]

Cancelled north of Birmingham...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66998692

What a farce, all that cash to shave about 20 minutes off going from Birmingham to London.

Should've started off the project with a high speed link between Liverpool and Leeds.

 

[Caledonian Craig]

11 hours ago, Toepoke said:

Cancelled north of Birmingham...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66998692

What a farce, all that cash to shave about 20 minutes off going from Birmingham to London.

Should've started off the project with a high speed link between Liverpool and Leeds.

 

The big issue being overlooked too are the hundreds of families kicked off their land to make way for HS2 and houses bulldozed - and now it isn't happening. Utterly disgraceful especially when you consider how hard those people fought against this.

[Toepoke]

20 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The big issue being overlooked too are the hundreds of families kicked off their land to make way for HS2 and houses bulldozed - and now it isn't happening. Utterly disgraceful especially when you consider how hard those people fought against this.

It's supposed to still be happening between Birmingham and (west) London. Or has construction work started on the Manchester leg?

 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

It's supposed to still be happening between Birmingham and (west) London. Or has construction work started on the Manchester leg?

 

Wherever it is on the original planned route hundreds have been kicked off their land and I know construction work has begin in London and just north of London into the Cotswalds. In any case those forced to sell up will not get their land back even if construction has not begun yet.

[Caledonian Craig]

People like these have had their lives ruined by HS2 and now it isn't happening:-

BBC News - Man forced to sell home for HS2 has 'lost everything'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67006024

[Alibi]

17 hours ago, Toepoke said:

Cancelled north of Birmingham...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66998692

What a farce, all that cash to shave about 20 minutes off going from Birmingham to London.

Should've started off the project with a high speed link between Liverpool and Leeds.

 

Actually they should have started at about Inverness and worked south.  That would have given them an imperative to complete it.  

[Toepoke]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

People like these have had their lives ruined by HS2 and now it isn't happening:-

BBC News - Man forced to sell home for HS2 has 'lost everything'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67006024

TBF that headline is a bit disingenuous, the guy wasn't forced to sell by HS2, although it would've affected his sale price.

The flipside is another family have bought his house at a knockdown price and won't now have a railway running past.