Indyref 2 (2)

[PapofGlencoe]

4 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Who is actually to blame for that though? NS wanted that but there was apathy from within her party and (look back to the posts) apathy on here towards a Defacto Referendum and generally apathy nationwide to the idea.

It's an unknown if there was apathy nationwide.  The polls immediately afterwards showed a path could have existed. let's not rewrite history, 2017 happened.  But so so did circa 10 polls in favour in a row after the verdict 2022.

If the party was not united enough to follow through then don't press the button.  Wait until it is willing to fight the next election on that basis or figured out its position.

As it stands theyve needlessly weakened the position for no gain.  we now have years of the mantra Scotland needs permission to counter.

I cannot believe they went to the SC without nailing down their own side's tactics alongside greens and the whole civic movement prior.  Did Nicola really go off piste and on the hoof here?  I like her but poor error of judgement if so.  tactics here are about how to gain independence, not find a way to leave office with a foot in both camps (I admit this last sentence I am unsure of but the rest I feel is self evident).  A listless shambles.  I genuinely believed real discussions must have been had.  Clearly they weren't and it was all in her head.  No political machinery ready to go. Crackers.    

[Ally Bongo]

43 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

If I lived there I would sign it. Some things are more important than party politics. She deliberately put other people's lives at risk when folk in her position should have been setting an example.

How many times is she to be punished ?

Or is it a case that an SNP MP is made scapegoat for every other MP that broke the rules ?

[ParisInAKilt]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:10 AM, Caledonian Craig said:

It keeps the thought of independence alive and in people's minds and shows unionists they are wrong to presume Scotland has zero interest in independence.

And, by the way, no Scot political or otherwise, has had a coherent strategy on independence. Why? Because in this union the only route to getting a say is requesting a Section 30 order from Westminster and we know how that always ends.  

The nationalist case for too wee too stupid and too poor for independence 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

The nationalist case for too wee too stupid and too poor for independence 

Thete has been one referendum in 300+ years and that came about because a Section 30 order was granted by Westminster. 

I do not like it at all but those are the facts.

I would prefer us to be far less compliant to Westminster. Be far more obnoxious to them and show the contempt politically that we feel. Demonstrate how unhappy we are at the lack of democracy being shown to us. Maybe that will help Scots to see the light and start to be more pro-independence. Also take up Salmond's plan to unite the pro-independence parties in elections or at least display a far more united front. Turn the pressure up on Westminster. And make Scottish Election a Defacto Referendum. Even if Westminster says it is not legal it will show the world how undemocratic this union is which can only help the cause.

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Thete has been one referendum in 300+ years and that came about because a Section 30 order was granted by Westminster. 

I do not like it at all but those are the facts.

I would prefer us to be far less compliant to Westminster. Be far more obnoxious to them and show the contempt politically that we feel. Demonstrate how unhappy we are at the lack of democracy being shown to us. Maybe that will help Scots to see the light and start to be more pro-independence. Also take up Salmond's plan to unite the pro-independence parties in elections or at least display a far more united front. Turn the pressure up on Westminster. And make Scottish Election a Defacto Referendum. Even if Westminster says it is not legal it will show the world how undemocratic this union is which can only help the cause.

Slippers Wishart has taken it on himself to rubbishing this twice daily at the moment due to ALBA being "too toxic" and the drones replying agree with him

[hampden_loon2878]

8 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

LOL even i know that is out of the question

It's for the General Election - not a Holyrood election

 

Sorry my mistake, they won’t get any for a GE 

[Caledonian Craig]

Surely, any Defacto Referendum would need to be in Scottish Elections. Independence for Scotland is all about Scotland only. A General Election would see too many people more eager to vote on UK issues which is what we are trying to breakaway from. Too many may choose to vote Scottish Labour to remove the Tories from power watering down the pro-independence vote. Scottish Elections are fought on truly Scottish issues and would be far better indication of the feelings on independence.

[aaid]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Surely, any Defacto Referendum would need to be in Scottish Elections. Independence for Scotland is all about Scotland only. A General Election would see too many people more eager to vote on UK issues which is what we are trying to breakaway from. Too many may choose to vote Scottish Labour to remove the Tories from power watering down the pro-independence vote. Scottish Elections are fought on truly Scottish issues and would be far better indication of the feelings on independence.

On the contrary, independence is about trying to break down the Union, it is the WM government which is the problem.  

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

On the contrary, independence is about trying to break down the Union, it is the WM government which is the problem.  

 

[Caledonian Craig]

34 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

That may not seem as loony an idea as you think if we are canny about things.

It could be a way to leverage more power away from Westminster and rephrase/reword things making it far easier to hold referendums without Westminster's say so. Just get someone in to word agreements that make it far easier to break the unionists chains they have on us.

As long as we are never giving up on total independence we will be no worse off than we are now certainly.

However, any such deal and I'd want assurances independence was going to be No 1 priority for the SNP or else I'd be taking my vote elsewhere.

[TDYER63]

38 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

That may not seem as loony an idea as you think if we are canny about things.

It could be a way to leverage more power away from Westminster and rephrase/reword things making it far easier to hold referendums without Westminster's say so. Just get someone in to word agreements that make it far easier to break the unionists chains they have on us.

As long as we are never giving up on total independence we will be no worse off than we are now certainly.

However, any such deal and I'd want assurances independence was going to be No 1 priority for the SNP or else I'd be taking my vote elsewhere.

Never in a million years will Labour agree to anything like that. They would rather pull together a mongrel government from every other party. 

[aaid]

3 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

I think it’s a shite idea, but then I thought it was a shite idea a couple of years ago when Kenny MacAskill was trumpeting it.  I don’t recall you shouting it down then, funny that.

https://belfastmedia.com/scotland

[Hertsscot]

17 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Slippers Wishart has taken it on himself to rubbishing this twice daily at the moment due to ALBA being "too toxic" and the drones replying agree with him

Alba may be toxic, certainly appear to have some idiots on social media but Wishart is totally oblivious to the fact that SNP and particularly the Greens have their fair share as well. Too many MPs/MSPs appear to be not listening and out of touch and too interested in their own egos or their own agenda.

[aaid]

8 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Never in a million years will Labour agree to anything like that. They would rather pull together a mongrel government from every other party. 

I agree with you.  It’s worth pointing out that nowhere in that interview is Hepburn actually advocating for a Devo Max solution, the opposite in fact, what he is saying that it might be worth considering it on the ballot paper if that’s the cost in getting a referendum.  In 2014, Devo Max would’ve been the most popular option, I’m not sure it would be today.  

[hampden_loon2878]

Had a little laugh at this

[chaff]

I never ever thought I would see the day where I despised the SNP and couldn't give a fuck about independence.

Well done.

 

[Orraloon]

2 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Had a little laugh at this

What's all that about then?

[TDYER63]

11 hours ago, chaff said:

I never ever thought I would see the day where I despised the SNP and couldn't give a fuck about independence.

Well done.

 

I can understand why you feel like that. But whether you think it’s deliberate , or just shit management from the SNP on independence , you are giving the other side exactly what they want. If you truly want independence , a single political party should not have the ability to make you indifferent . 

[TDYER63]

On 6/8/2023 at 9:16 PM, Ally Bongo said:

At this stage of the debate, "keeping the thought of Independence alive and in people's minds" whilst doing fuck all makes a mockery of the SNP - which this facade does

There is a coherent strategy - one which the SNP will not touch under the current leadership in a million years because clearly Independence takes a back seat to the gravy train

https://archive.is/2023.06.06-101000/https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2023/06/alex-salmond-bids-to-disrupt-labour-with-pro-independence-electoral-pact

At this stage I would gamble with Salmonds suggestion as we are getting absolutely nowhere with the current strategy . IMO some sort of shake up is required, even if it fails, its currently like being in Dantes first circle of hell . A different SNP leader could have been the shake up but that didn’t happen. 

I have 8000 leaflets to get delivered in my area on independence produced by the SNP , the leaflet is ok but it says absolutely nothing different to what has been said for years. We are not going to get people convinced by sticking another bloody leaflet through their doors. They need to be more radical. 

[Ally Bongo]

18 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I can understand why you feel like that. But whether you think it’s deliberate , or just shit management from the SNP on independence , you are giving the other side exactly what they want. If you truly want independence , a single political party should not have the ability to make you indifferent . 

Pete Wishart

·

1h

 

That was a very good interview with Humza on #BBCLaura. Reassured to hear him say a vote for the SNP at the next General Election would be a vote for independence. And it’s a ‘No’ to Alba’s daft plans for ‘unity’ candidates.

[killiefaetheferry]

Sturgeon arrested 🍿

[Squirrelhumper]

3 minutes ago, killiefaetheferry said:

Sturgeon arrested 🍿

There will stlll be folk blowing smoke up her arse.

Done more damage to independence than any tory could dream of.

 

[AlfieMoon]

The next chapter in the saga. 
Not going to know anything until a prosecution is presented. 

[TDYER63]

Let me guess.

Released without charge pending further enquiries. 

[hampden_loon2878]

11 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

There will stlll be folk blowing smoke up her arse.

Done more damage to independence than any tory could dream of.

 

Cocorrect