Indyref 2 (2)

[weekevie04]

32 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Hiw will it work if we are back in thr EU as an independent scotland but with open borders to england for trade?

Don't worry about it, Malcolm, its about as relevant as the UK rejoining EU. Neither are going to happen in the next ten years.

[stocky]

1 hour ago, Malcolm said:

Hiw will it work if we are back in thr EU as an independent scotland but with open borders to england for trade?

Same way as it works between Norway and Sweden, between Switzerland and France,

Between N.I. and Eire...

It really is not that hard, unless you are saying Scottish people are too stupid to implement it.

[Ally Bongo]

5 minutes ago, stocky said:

It really is not that hard, unless you are saying Scottish people are too stupid to implement it.

Or England through spite will block the billions of pounds of trade it does with Scotland

[Caledonian Craig]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:47 PM, Ally Bongo said:

Or England through spite will block the billions of pounds of trade it does with Scotland

They can't get on their high horse too much. England would lose much by getting on their high horse such as water, renewable energy, Scotch Beef, Whisky and more. And lest we forget they'll be desperate for us to allow them to keep Trident in our waters.

[Dave78]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

They can't get on their high horse too much. England would lose much by getting on their high horse such as water, renewable energy, Scotch Beef, Whisky and more. And lest we forget they'll be desperate for us to allow them to keep Trident in our waters.

This all sounds a bit too much like the brexiteer's 'German car makers' argument to me. I suspect the Tories (at least the hard-right brexiteer wing) would love to make Scotland's independence as hard as possible. To try and strangle it at birth (see Darien).

As for Trident, if need be the rUK could do a deal with the USA or France to look after their subs while a new base is built. I'm sure that's an option they'd explore.

The key for Scotland will be getting back into the EU asap.

 

 

[Alibi]

2 hours ago, Dave78 said:

This all sounds a bit too much like the brexiteer's 'German car makers' argument to me. I suspect the Tories (at least the hard-right brexiteer wing) would love to make Scotland's independence as hard as possible. To try and strangle it at birth (see Darien).

As for Trident, if need be the rUK could do a deal with the USA or France to look after their subs while a new base is built. I'm sure that's an option they'd explore.

The key for Scotland will be getting back into the EU asap.

 

 

Or EFTA , ither as an interim measure or even long term - in my view we must have a vote on our European status rather than it being a cut and dried consequence of indy as currently proposed by the SNP.  I would vote to be in the eU myself but the main things I want are single market and freedom of movement.

[Freeedom]

36 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Or EFTA , ither as an interim measure or even long term - in my view we must have a vote on our European status rather than it being a cut and dried consequence of indy as currently proposed by the SNP.  I would vote to be in the eU myself but the main things I want are single market and freedom of movement.

Indeed. 40% of Scots voted for brexit.

Independence is dead regardless of who wins the SNP leadership contest anyway. That party will never get us there

[aaid]

12 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

Indeed. 40% of Scots voted for brexit.

Independence is dead regardless of who wins the SNP leadership contest anyway. That party will never get us there

And 68% of Scots want an independent Scotland to join the EU.

[Freeedom]

14 minutes ago, aaid said:

And 68% of Scots want an independent Scotland to join the EU.

Then let the people have a referendum on the issue after independence. In the meantime go for EFTA

[Orraloon]

5 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

Then let the people have a referendum on the issue after independence. In the meantime go for EFTA

I can't understand why the SNP don't just come out and say this. "After we are independent we will negotiate to rejoin the EU but we will only rejoin after a referendum". The EU probably won't even let us rejoin unless we do have a referendum. There is no need to combine the two things. Just keep them separate. Independence first, then we decide if we want to rejoin the EU. 

 

 

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

And 68% of Scots want an independent Scotland to join the EU.

Yes, but I think we should formalise that after indy rather than alienating folk who would like indy but don't want to be in the EU.  If you allow an EU/EFTA/nothing referendum after indy, we can decide it for ourselves and put an end to any arguments.  Doing it that way will increase the indy vote as it will persuade at least some anti-EU voters to support indy.

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

I can't understand why the SNP don't just come out and say this. "After we are independent we will negotiate to rejoin the EU but we will only rejoin after a referendum". The EU probably won't even let us rejoin unless we do have a referendum. There is no need to combine the two things. Just keep them separate. Independence first, then we decide if we want to rejoin the EU. 

 

 

Exactly.  There should be no conditions attached to an indy vote.  Anything piggybacked on it will only reduce the Yes vote.  Keep it a simple question about indy and indy only.

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Yes, but I think we should formalise that after indy rather than alienating folk who would like indy but don't want to be in the EU.  If you allow an EU/EFTA/nothing referendum after indy, we can decide it for ourselves and put an end to any arguments.  Doing it that way will increase the indy vote as it will persuade at least some anti-EU voters to support indy.

By the same token pro-EU people may think "They don't mean it" and will vote no.   There's two sides to the coin. 

 

[stocky]

2 hours ago, Freeedom said:

Indeed. 40% of Scots voted for brexit.

Independence is dead regardless of who wins the SNP leadership contest anyway. That party will never get us there

 

Oops didn't mean to quote 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by stocky

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

By the same token pro-EU people may think "They don't mean it" and will vote no.   There's two sides to the coin. 

 

Well there is one thing for certain, Pro Eu folk will definitely NOT be in the EU sticking with the UK. At least there is a chance in an independent Scotland. With Scotland regularly polling at 60+ % pro eu they are pretty goods odds. 

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Well there is one thing for certain, Pro Eu folk will definitely NOT be in the EU sticking with the UK. At least there is a chance in an independent Scotland. With Scotland regularly polling at 60+ % pro eu they are pretty goods odds. 

True but some may prefer to just be out of one Union, not two.  I just think that too often when looking at growing the Yes support, when it comes to changing policy, they don’t pay any attention to what the impact might to those already voting Yes.   It’s a “who else are they going to vote for” attitude which is very dangerous.   I used to say that about Labour in the north of England, then 2019 happened.  

[Alibi]

16 hours ago, aaid said:

By the same token pro-EU people may think "They don't mean it" and will vote no.   There's two sides to the coin. 

 

 

14 hours ago, aaid said:

True but some may prefer to just be out of one Union, not two.  I just think that too often when looking at growing the Yes support, when it comes to changing policy, they don’t pay any attention to what the impact might to those already voting Yes.   It’s a “who else are they going to vote for” attitude which is very dangerous.   I used to say that about Labour in the north of England, then 2019 happened.  

You're all over the place on this. Desperately trying to justify SNP policy.  Bottom line is indy should be achieved without putting pre-conditions on it.

[Freeedom]

22 minutes ago, Alibi said:

 

You're all over the place on this. Desperately trying to justify SNP policy.  Bottom line is indy should be achieved without putting pre-conditions on it.

Agree, it's absurd.

I've spent the last couple of years talking about the fact that the SNP have done nothing to actually campaign and build support for independence and now that we are at a point where the referendum they promised this year is no longer possible the party are saying that they need to build more support. It's completely comical. 

 

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

 

You're all over the place on this. Desperately trying to justify SNP policy.  Bottom line is indy should be achieved without putting pre-conditions on it.

All I’m saying is that as more people support Scotland being in the EU, so it makes more sense to target them than those who don’t.   It’s simple arithmetic, not purist ideology. 

[Caledonian Craig]

I do find it highly comical how everyone talks about referendums and why aren't we having one. Where have you been living the last 300+ years?

If Westminster says no then forget it. The Supreme Court decision confirmed that too. Sturgeon cited a defacto referendum to satisfy those of us baying for it anyway but my guess is too many within her party were against it as we seem to be seeing from the step back from that stance by her potential replacements.

We have the unionist myth they cannot answer as in if we are such a financial burden why are Westminster desperate to hold on to us? Well the independence movement has its own unanswerable question of how do we get a referendum on independence when Westminster do not allow it?

Edited February 24, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[Freeedom]

24 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I do find it highly comical how everyone talks about referendums and why aren't we having one. Where have you been living the last 300+ years?

If Westminster says no then forget it. The Supreme Court decision confirmed that too. Sturgeon cited a defacto referendum to satisfy those of us baying for it anyway but my guess is too many within her party were against it as we seem to be seeing from the step back from that stance by her potential replacements.

We have the unionist myth they cannot answer as in if we are such a financial burden why are Westminster desperate to hold on to us? Well the independence movement has its own unanswerable question of how do we get a referendum on independence when Westminster do not allow it?

Perhaps we need to stop being so servile by "asking for permission" and take matters into our own hands? It's not going to be given to us, so it's up to us to do it. 

If we build enough support for independence through smart campaigning  then the rest will follow.

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

Perhaps we need to stop being so servile by "asking for permission" and take matters into our own hands? It's not going to be given to us, so it's up to us to do it. 

If we build enough support for independence through smart campaigning  then the rest will follow.

This is a genuine question.   I presume by taking it into our own hands you mean some for pm of unilateral Declaration of Independence, if not then what do you mean?   If it is UDI, then how do you propose to build the international support to make that happen?   Have you looked at where UDI has been successful post WW2, in almost all cases it’s been as a result of a war or where former communist states - USSR and Yugoslavia - have broken up. 

[Malcolm]

6 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

Perhaps we need to stop being so servile by "asking for permission" and take matters into our own hands? It's not going to be given to us, so it's up to us to do it. 

If we build enough support for independence through smart campaigning  then the rest will follow.

it would go the same way as Catalonia.  
 

need to build a sustained significant majority… over 60%

[Caledonian Craig]

4 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

Perhaps we need to stop being so servile by "asking for permission" and take matters into our own hands? It's not going to be given to us, so it's up to us to do it. 

If we build enough support for independence through smart campaigning  then the rest will follow.

Declaring independence without a referendum is not an option as Scotland would not be recognised in the international community and would be lepurs. Not saying that is what you are suggesting we do Freedom.

Holding a defacto referendum was mooted by Sturgeon but it would seem too many of her party baulked at this idea so that leaves us at a dead end.

It is damned depressing it really is.

[Freeedom]

I want to see us get support consistently above 60% at minimum, if at that point Westminster is still not willing to budge we go ahead and hold a referendum and get the people's confidence on the issue. If Westminster pull a Catalunya on us it will only increase support. We can't just allow the British state to invoke fascist rule over us as a matter of "legality"

Sovereignty lies with the people as far as I am concerned and we have to be willing to take matters into our hands, if there is no legal route then we have no choice.

One way or another the dam will burst