U21s

[Hertsscot]

15 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Id rather have him in the squad than McCrorie. He isnt getting regular 1st team action but has played 3 times and at least made the move to attempt to get some football. McCrorie shouldnt be rewarded for lack of will / ambition to play 1st team football.

I feel the same about Jordan Archer who played for my local non-league team. He had a poor Scotland debut but was excellent when he was at Millwall and was linked to some EPL clubs. Just seems content to sit on the bench at QPR.

[ProudScot]

Doak - unreal skill there. 

Also Robbie Fraser is a player! 

[ProudScot]

Unbelievable touch from Mebude, wins. Pen brilliantly 

[BookhouseBoys]

Brilliant from Mebude there.

[ProudScot]

Ben Doak pen with 4 mins to go. Saved. Great save tbf. Mebude made it, great impact from him. 

[Yr Alban]

Almost inevitable that the penalty would be missed. I could feel it coming.

[ProudScot]

Finished 0-0. Standouts tonight were Slicker (undoubted MOM), Doak who needs drafted into the senior squad next squad undoubtedly - he has world class attributes, Mebude (should’ve started) and Robbie Fraser.

 

[BookhouseBoys]

Just now, Yr Alban said:

Almost inevitable that the penalty would be missed. I could feel it coming.

Yeah same here. Hungarian #8 should have had about 5 yellows, nevermind 2 and I think he got into Doak’s head a bit. 
 

Am I right that Mebude is just back from injury? Hopefully gets a good bit of game time in the coming months - looked really good when he came on.

Been impressed with Barron, Slicker and Mullen in particular over these two games.

[Marky]

2 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Finished 0-0. Standouts tonight were Slicker (undoubted MOM), Doak who needs drafted into the senior squad next squad undoubtedly - he has world class attributes, Mebude (should’ve started) and Robbie Fraser.

 

I’m assuming Doak was a standout in the first half then, because I only watched the second half and he barely touched the ball. Couple of decent turns but they never amounted to anything. Also got himself booked for waving an imaginary yellow card at the ref. Hate that shit. 

[Diamond Scot]

1 hour ago, ProudScot said:

Don’t know about that one. McCrories played in the champs league qualifiers, old firms and had a run of SPL starts, kept clean sheets in big games & made big saves.

Zander Clark should be binned same as Greg Taylor and Jacob Brown 

Not this season as far as im aware. I dont think he has played 1 minute this season and im pretty sure previous years early games were McLaughlin in goal. McCrorie only got a look in at the end of last season. 

[theabsentee]

7 hours ago, ProudScot said:

Finished 0-0. Standouts tonight were Slicker (undoubted MOM), Doak who needs drafted into the senior squad next squad undoubtedly - he has world class attributes, Mebude (should’ve started) and Robbie Fraser.

 

Yeh there's no doubt Doak is potentially something very special. He is raw though, needs to brush up on a few things, final ball, passing , finishing & keeping his head. Boy looks like he has real belief in himself also, reckon he is at the perfect club to refine his flaws , if he can Scotland will have that truly world class game changing player we've all craved for decades.

   Also looking forward to seeing how Mebude progresses in Belgium now he is fit, he's also potentially a top quality player.

    Sorry to finish with something negative but even though he looked very confident & was excellent tonight Slicker doesn't look the biggest, to me he looks a keeper who will have a decent career but probably not at the top level.

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, theabsentee said:

 

    Sorry to finish with something negative but even though he looked very confident & was excellent tonight Slicker doesn't look the biggest, to me he looks a keeper who will have a decent career but probably not at the top level.

Already seen enough of him to  know he is better than Zander Clark and should be third keeper for the Euros.

[BryanBlessed]

11 hours ago, ProudScot said:

Finished 0-0. Standouts tonight were Slicker (undoubted MOM), Doak who needs drafted into the senior squad next squad undoubtedly - he has world class attributes, Mebude (should’ve started) and Robbie Fraser.

 

He isn't the finished article but I agree with this. It looked like the Hungarians were terrified of what he could do. When we played Norway, part of the reason we didn't look great is because we were concentrating so much on Haaland. None of our current forwards would put the fear into any defence. Doak could.

[ProudScot]

26 minutes ago, BryanBlessed said:

He isn't the finished article but I agree with this. It looked like the Hungarians were terrified of what he could do. When we played Norway, part of the reason we didn't look great is because we were concentrating so much on Haaland. None of our current forwards would put the fear into any defence. Doak could.

Agreed.
Also Incorrect, Jacob Brown puts the fear into our own defence 

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

I have to say that was another disappointing watch. Although there is clear quality in that team (Slicker, Doak, Barron et al.) they were utterly outplayed by Hungry. It was attack vs defence and our players seemed incapable of much more than hopeful punts forward. Much of this, as always, is down to our pal Gemmill. I'm sorry, but King is not a top class midfielder and when we are under significant enough pressure that the wingbacks are constantly pushed back having him and Barron as the two in the middle is not enough. The formation isn't necessarily wrong but the selection was and the way they played within it was too. Gemmill made no attempt at any point to change the way we were playing. We just couldn't keep the ball for more than a few passes. Hungry are on the up for sure but I struggle to believe they are an absolute top U21 side - we should be looking to be far less supplicant that the 30% odd possession we had shows we were. Just very dispiriting how easily we were dominated.

[marinello]

A tad harsh. Remember we were the away team.

When we played Hungary at FP we were clearly the better side.

Also worthy of note that we were without several first picks such as Doig, Johnston and the left back who played at FP against Malta.

Yup, we ain't pulling up trees but we are much better than recent under 21's.

 

[henry george]

Gemmill seems to have a bias in favour of players (however limited) who can put in a "shift" rather than accommodating ball players who can do something special and open up defences but whose work ethic falls below his exacting standards.  Lowry must wonder why he bothered showing up for the squad and Josh Adam wasn't even in the squad despite being outstanding against France U19's last year. 

[scotlad]

14 hours ago, Marky said:

I’m assuming Doak was a standout in the first half then, because I only watched the second half and he barely touched the ball. Couple of decent turns but they never amounted to anything. Also got himself booked for waving an imaginary yellow card at the ref. Hate that shit. 

Nah, he was much the same in the first half too. To be fair to him, Hungary obviously identified him as a threat and basically kicked lumps out of him. I usually cannae stand the imaginary yellow card waving thing either but I am not going to be too critical of him there. If I was getting kicked up and down the park I might be asking the ref to intervene too!

Doak has pace to burn, lovley balance, good ball control and skill, but his end product is almost non-existent. He has ample time to improve that aspect of his game and with time, experience and working with good coaches he'll almost certainly get there, but he had two golden opportunities to score yesterday and fluffed them both - and mind, it was a U21 game he was playing in. People are talking about taking him to the Euros but for me he isn't ready yet.

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

5 hours ago, marinello said:

A tad harsh. Remember we were the away team.

When we played Hungary at FP we were clearly the better side.

Also worthy of note that we were without several first picks such as Doig, Johnston and the left back who played at FP against Malta.

Yup, we ain't pulling up trees but we are much better than recent under 21's.

 

Not pulling up trees is a bit of an under-statement for me. We were completely and comprehensively outplayed by Hungry. That *might* be forgivable if a) it was an outlier because we were short of our best players and b) we were playing lovely football when we had the ball. Neither of those things are true - our 21s consistently play like this even with our best players available, we were playing 1980s British style football and humping it long every opportunity. 

This is probably the best 21s side on paper I can remember. We have multiple players playing at a high level in our squad including at the top level in England, Austria, Belgium, Italy and Scotland as well as multiple players playing at a decent level across the divisions in England. I think every single one of the Hungarians is playing in Hungarian domestic football and some of them are playing in the second tier of their domestic league. They may or may not be decent but this isn't a top class side - they made ours look like diddies. 

 

[adamntg]

26 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Not pulling up trees is a bit of an under-statement for me. We were completely and comprehensively outplayed by Hungry. That *might* be forgivable if a) it was an outlier because we were short of our best players and b) we were playing lovely football when we had the ball. Neither of those things are true - our 21s consistently play like this even with our best players available, we were playing 1980s British style football and humping it long every opportunity. 

This is probably the best 21s side on paper I can remember. We have multiple players playing at a high level in our squad including at the top level in England, Austria, Belgium, Italy and Scotland as well as multiple players playing at a decent level across the divisions in England. I think every single one of the Hungarians is playing in Hungarian domestic football and some of them are playing in the second tier of their domestic league. They may or may not be decent but this isn't a top class side - they made ours look like diddies. 

 

Not at home to Hungary they didn’t.  They were 3-0 up inside half an hour. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by adamntg

[marinello]

1 hour ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Not pulling up trees is a bit of an under-statement for me. We were completely and comprehensively outplayed by Hungry. That *might* be forgivable if a) it was an outlier because we were short of our best players and b) we were playing lovely football when we had the ball. Neither of those things are true - our 21s consistently play like this even with our best players available, we were playing 1980s British style football and humping it long every opportunity. 

This is probably the best 21s side on paper I can remember. We have multiple players playing at a high level in our squad including at the top level in England, Austria, Belgium, Italy and Scotland as well as multiple players playing at a decent level across the divisions in England. I think every single one of the Hungarians is playing in Hungarian domestic football and some of them are playing in the second tier of their domestic league. They may or may not be decent but this isn't a top class side - they made ours look like diddies. 

 

I maybe wrong but I'm sure the commentator said a number of the Hungarian lads played elsewhere in Europe. He certainly said at least 2 of the players had been in the Hungarian A squad which of course had just finished top of their qualifying group.

 

[Burj_Alba]

5 hours ago, scotlad said:

Nah, he was much the same in the first half too. To be fair to him, Hungary obviously identified him as a threat and basically kicked lumps out of him. I usually cannae stand the imaginary yellow card waving thing either but I am not going to be too critical of him there. If I was getting kicked up and down the park I might be asking the ref to intervene too!

Doak has pace to burn, lovley balance, good ball control and skill, but his end product is almost non-existent. He has ample time to improve that aspect of his game and with time, experience and working with good coaches he'll almost certainly get there, but he had two golden opportunities to score yesterday and fluffed them both - and mind, it was a U21 game he was playing in. People are talking about taking him to the Euros but for me he isn't ready yet.

Think this match more or less emphasised Doak's potential world class credentials but also highlighted why he shouldn't be promoted to the first team yet. Really needs to learn when to try and beat the world and when a simple pass will suffice. Ok, anyone can miss a penalty and survive (can't they Gareth?) but there was one incident late in the game when both full backs were bombing forward in space but Doak decided to try take the whole Hungarian defence in by himself. Hungary had a big break on but either poor play or good defending stopped the break. Could imagine Steve Clark having palpitations if the was a first team match. 

Happened at other times in the match too. 

Maybe Doak only does that at underage levels, but he has got to work it out by himself for the benefit of the team.

Over to you, Herr Klopp!!

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

3 hours ago, adamntg said:

Not at home to Hungary they didn’t.  They were 3-0 up inside half an hour. 

Aye of course, you are right. We were 3-0 up in a completely different match inside half an hour therefore our performance last night was reminiscent of 1970s Brazil or Ajax 95.

[mccaughey85]

17 hours ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Not pulling up trees is a bit of an under-statement for me. We were completely and comprehensively outplayed by Hungry. That *might* be forgivable if a) it was an outlier because we were short of our best players and b) we were playing lovely football when we had the ball. Neither of those things are true - our 21s consistently play like this even with our best players available, we were playing 1980s British style football and humping it long every opportunity. 

This is probably the best 21s side on paper I can remember. We have multiple players playing at a high level in our squad including at the top level in England, Austria, Belgium, Italy and Scotland as well as multiple players playing at a decent level across the divisions in England. I think every single one of the Hungarians is playing in Hungarian domestic football and some of them are playing in the second tier of their domestic league. They may or may not be decent but this isn't a top class side - they made ours look like diddies. 

 

Our u21s usually look out of their depth in the games I watch. It's frustrating because on paper they should be able to play much better or you would hope so. 

We seem to pull out decent results from time to time which papers over the cracks but it's just not good enough overall. 

Saying that their is some positives to be had from this group of players. Slicker looks pretty good and will probably play a reasonable level of football. I think if he starts getting any sort of gametime for his club then our 3rd place keeper spot should go to him. Maybe a loan move to a league 1 or spl club could help him.

Mullin and bowat look good defenders. I was particularly impressed by mullin, he reads the game well and makes key blocks and tackles. Would like to see him get a loan move as well.

Although doak is raw it's obvious that the talent is there. He looks dangerous whenever he gets the ball and even if he doesn't make it at Liverpool I think he will still make it in a top league.

End of the day the results at u21 really don't matter to me much. It's a case of getting 2 or 3 players from this group who can go on to play for the main team that matters. Doak will probably be with the main team soon enough and guys like bowat and slicker will be too old for the u21s in a year or so. Just need them to get playing regular club football and eventually see where they go from there. 

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

Our u21s usually look out of their depth in the games I watch. It's frustrating because on paper they should be able to play much better or you would hope so. 

We seem to pull out decent results from time to time which papers over the cracks but it's just not good enough overall. 

Saying that their is some positives to be had from this group of players. Slicker looks pretty good and will probably play a reasonable level of football. I think if he starts getting any sort of gametime for his club then our 3rd place keeper spot should go to him. Maybe a loan move to a league 1 or spl club could help him.

Mullin and bowat look good defenders. I was particularly impressed by mullin, he reads the game well and makes key blocks and tackles. Would like to see him get a loan move as well.

Although doak is raw it's obvious that the talent is there. He looks dangerous whenever he gets the ball and even if he doesn't make it at Liverpool I think he will still make it in a top league.

End of the day the results at u21 really don't matter to me much. It's a case of getting 2 or 3 players from this group who can go on to play for the main team that matters. Doak will probably be with the main team soon enough and guys like bowat and slicker will be too old for the u21s in a year or so. Just need them to get playing regular club football and eventually see where they go from there. 

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that there are talented players in that group (and indeed in previous groups) but I think the way they are managed is incredibly damaging, most notably that they play regressive football not aligned with the way the first team play. They have indeed picked up some notable results but they were achieved with a combination of luck and horrible backs to the wall punt it away football. We are better than that, or at least we should aspire to be if we want to continue our current upward trajectory in international football.

My view is the impact on the core objective of developing good footballers must be there - both in mindset and in their ability to integrate effectively into the first team when the time comes. For instance, I would have loved to see Connor Barron taking on exactly the same role that McGregor takes on in the first team with a view to eventually taking that spot in the side. I would have loved to see the fullbacks, particularly Doig and Johnston who have been around our first team play the same way that would be expected if they needed to be slotted in (we were one more injury on either fullback position from them being on the bench against Norway). For that to happen effectively we need our centrebacks at U21 level to play in the same way too which they don't. I would have loved to have seen Doak tried out in either a McGinn type role or a Christie type role again with a view to integration into the first team. Again, not the way they play. It's not just positions though, it is attempting to set up the team to play our way out from the back and to play a brand of football that is at least somewhat possession based. 

Even if you discount the results, and Gemmill has an atrocious 31.5% win record, the development of the players/team/style is simply not there. Its just very poorly managed in my opinion and pointing at 1 or 2 decent results without considering the manner those results were achieved is hiding the bigger picture.