Scunnered Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Going by the tone of this thread.... Does this mean that the SNP boys and girls don't agree that lovely Nicola has played a blinder in removing the red line of Trident on a Labour agreement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Going by the tone of this thread.... Does this mean that the SNP boys and girls don't agree that lovely Nicola has played a blinder in removing the red line of Trident on a Labour agreement? Hmmm. She's not removed that red line though. She's quite clear there will be no official SNP support for Labour that involved renewing Trident? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Hmmm. She's not removed that red line though. She's quite clear there will be no official SNP support for Labour that involved renewing Trident? I might be wrong, as I haven't seen any previous quotes from Nic. But a couple of months ago I remember SNP boys and girls, and a few Scottish CND boys and girls celebrating that any case by case agreement would hinge on Labour agreeing not to renew trident. By her Guardian interview the other day this is no longer the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jie Bie Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 There is absolutely no way they've just won an historic independence referendum, and fudged the Smith Commission to be utterly toothless, to then give up devo max, full fiscal autonomy and everything else because the SNP had a great election. They'd sooner rerun the election or go into government together. (And this is where I disagree with Parklife. If devo max was somehow offered (and I don't think there is any chance it will), the SNP must take it. It is too good an offer to refuse. There is no way I would gamble full fiscal autonomy in the hope the next referendum was successful.) IMO there's no chance Labour would agree to go into government with the Tories - they'd be signing their own death sentence! Going by the tone of this thread.... Does this mean that the SNP boys and girls don't agree that lovely Nicola has played a blinder in removing the red line of Trident on a Labour agreement? For me, I wouldn't be happy if the cost of Home Rule was that Trident got renewed and stayed on the Clyde. However, surely it would be idiotic of any government to spend billions on a weapons system that was based in a part of their country which was likely to secede in the near future? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maq Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Scunnered - think it was James Cook, or someone else at the beeb last week who tweeted a link to an article, about the trident situation. His tweet asked 'Had Nicola removed Trident as a red line issue'. Nicola tweeted back one word, "No" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Forgive me if this has already been posted but I love this "This is me announcing that Ed Miliband is in the pocket of someone else." https://twitter.com/DavidChameron/status/574912703942254592/photo/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mee Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 If the SNP don't join with another party then they will never get any of their ideas passed in government. They can never have an overall majority in the UK parliament and this election presents the strongest hand they will ever (or could ever) have in UK government. They will need to be careful how they play it to get the most promises made in their favour. Refusing to work with any other party on any matters is a waste of time and would make voting for SNP in UK general elections pointless going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I might be wrong, as I haven't seen any previous quotes from Nic. But a couple of months ago I remember SNP boys and girls, and a few Scottish CND boys and girls celebrating that any case by case agreement would hinge on Labour agreeing not to renew trident. By her Guardian interview the other day this is no longer the case? If I remember right she said she would never support trident on the Clyde. Now does this mean she would support it if it was moved elsewhere or that she doesn't support it full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goozay Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I might be wrong, as I haven't seen any previous quotes from Nic. But a couple of months ago I remember SNP boys and girls, and a few Scottish CND boys and girls celebrating that any case by case agreement would hinge on Labour agreeing not to renew trident. By her Guardian interview the other day this is no longer the case? Yep, you're wrong. Previous quotes from Sturgeon said that a vote for Labour was a vote for Trident renewal, making it very clear on where the two parties differed on that issue. What wasn't clear was whether SNP would work with Labour because of their difference over Trident. What's now clear from The Guardian interview is that the SNP would consider working with Labour on an issue-by-issue basis, are unlikely to form a coalition with Labour and will vote against Trident renewal during the next Parliament. They also wouldn't touch The Tories with yours. To answer your earlier question she has indeed played a blinder, as have The Tories since Ashcroft's latest figures came out. Labour and The Lib Dems continue to flounder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 No coalition with Labour thank you. Let Red Tories or the Blue Tories coalesce if they chose or better yet form a minority government, like the SNP had to for many a year. Then the free opposition can vote according to their conscience. Any partnership with Labour will poison the SNP. Avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 We shouldn't ally with the Borg just to fight species 8472 to use a star trek analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killiefaetheferry Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 There is absolutely no way they've just won an historic independence referendum, and fudged the Smith Commission to be utterly toothless, to then give up devo max, full fiscal autonomy and everything else because the SNP had a great election. They'd sooner rerun the election or go into government together. (And this is where I disagree with Parklife. If devo max was somehow offered (and I don't think there is any chance it will), the SNP must take it. It is too good an offer to refuse. There is no way I would gamble full fiscal autonomy in the hope the next referendum was successful.) Potentially we have a 'no lose' scenario. We demand Devo Max as the price of putting Labour in Downing Street, or we end up with a Tory/Lab coalition. I would probably go for the latter as it would make Indyref2 a walk in the park. I still think Devo Max would eventually lead to independence, maybe 10 years down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wine bibber Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) The deluge of propaganda can have a lasting effect on our short term memories as well as long term.Currency was not considered a huge vote winning issue.We have to remember Salmond won both debates .His strategy on the first on currency was to expose Darling and Labour's association with the Tories."You Jocks cant .have what is already yours".I noticed a huge surge on the streets of Edinburgh for YES when campaigning after the first debate.And like Scunnered i was convinced we were going to hit 60%.Eck gave a detailed summary of plans B D E and F in the second debate whilst also exposing other inadequacies.Darling's statement about Scotland "not being able to have any financial services industry" was the biggest lost opportunity to discredit the "No"side of the whole campaign IMO.In the melee i was one of the few people who seemed to notice. After months of thought i have come to the conclusion we lost for several reasons.We seem to have been colonised by the back door and not just the 500,000 white settlers from South of the border.Nearly 80 per cent per cent of whom voted no. The last 300 years has seen an assault on our own culture through the invasion and erosion of our own institutions and values.So much so that many of our own inhabitants have become Scotaphobes by default ,dulled by the airbrushing of our nations history and its replacement from 1707 .Our own year zero.They see their own country as a region and inferior to the much grander institutions of their much larger neighbour. You can actually feel the fear of our own resident private schoolboy as he types ,terrified that his part of being resident in a "normal Northern European country" will mean disaster on a biblical scale.But after the inevitable independence we must convince him his mud hut will still be of a higher quality then his neighbour. The campaign also exposed us to the massive differences in our society and forced us to look ourselves as Rabbie would have wanted.It became a contest of rich and poor.Borne out by 80% plus votes for Yes in the poorest areas and vice versa in the private schools.The campaign became not just our human right to govern but a better and fairer society for all Scots and not just to gain what other countries took for granted.The problem is many of our own population do not want to to be equal with their fellow countrymen.They want to stay above the pack and they will generate or believe any lie or myth that enables them to do so. We just assumed everyone YES or NO was fighting for what they wanted their equality to be,but on different sides.We were wrong. Even some yes voters made the decision purely in financial terms, not even considering the moral argument or a tribute to the hundreds of thousands of their ancestors who died a brutal death at the hands of the invader over centuries .We're quite happy to aplogise for our role in the African slave trade but what schoolchild knows of the fate our our own kind after the second Dunbar. So ,next time we must concentrate not just on equality and social justice and the distribution of resources ,we must concentrate also on the aspiration of individual wealth.But above all we have to take control our our media and ensure we are never subjected to the level of propaganda that we endure .A propaganda that causes uniquely our own countrymen to deny their own birthright.Above all we must celebrate our own history as a country for 700 years.We must all understand rich or poor .left or right .North or South that we are Scottish not British.This especially to our own white settlers .They and their ancestors must become proud Scots too Edited March 9, 2015 by Wine bibber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) The fact the Labour, Tory & Liberal parties are almost merging their political identities to fight the threat of the SNP was and is a huge tactical error. What they are doing in the eyes of the electorate is boiling the political landscape down and reforming it into two new parties, the SNP, essentially 'the revolution' and the remnants of the old decaying deeply corrupt and dysfunctional political system, fighting a hopeless rearguard defence of their privilege and power. The fear in their eyes gives the SNP an accelerating momentum. Edited March 9, 2015 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) Yep, you're wrong. Previous quotes from Sturgeon said that a vote for Labour was a vote for Trident renewal, making it very clear on where the two parties differed on that issue. What wasn't clear was whether SNP would work with Labour because of their difference over Trident. What's now clear from The Guardian interview is that the SNP would consider working with Labour on an issue-by-issue basis, are unlikely to form a coalition with Labour and will vote against Trident renewal during the next Parliament. They also wouldn't touch The Tories with yours. To answer your earlier question she has indeed played a blinder, as have The Tories since Ashcroft's latest figures came out. Labour and The Lib Dems continue to flounder. Are you Sure? I'm at the mercy of Train wifi just now. But a search brings up a joint statement from SNP, Plaid and Greens stating the red line of Trident renewal... But the statement won't load cos First Scotrail.So far I've seen 2 people say the Guardian interview was a blinder, yourself and the Bristol Hibby chap... The majority are keeping quiet and a few are concerned. If it was my party I'd be concerned. Edited March 9, 2015 by Scunnered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasMc1973 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Forgive me if this has already been posted but I love this see, that's clever.... like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Scunnered - think it was James Cook, or someone else at the beeb last week who tweeted a link to an article, about the trident situation. His tweet asked 'Had Nicola removed Trident as a red line issue'. Nicola tweeted back one word, "No" That's what I'm trying to establish... My memory suggests, although purely going from SNP and CND supporters opinions, that Trident was a Red Line to a case by case agreement with Labour. The Guardian interview, which I've watched, suggests that has now changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Yep, you're wrong. Previous quotes from Sturgeon said that a vote for Labour was a vote for Trident renewal, making it very clear on where the two parties differed on that issue. What wasn't clear was whether SNP would work with Labour because of their difference over Trident. What's now clear from The Guardian interview is that the SNP would consider working with Labour on an issue-by-issue basis, are unlikely to form a coalition with Labour and will vote against Trident renewal during the next Parliament. They also wouldn't touch The Tories with yours. To answer your earlier question she has indeed played a blinder, as have The Tories since Ashcroft's latest figures came out. Labour and The Lib Dems continue to flounder. Trident is a moot point anyways. The SNP can vote with their conscience along with the Lib Dems, but it will still get passed by a Labour/Tory majority. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Trident is a moot point anyways. The SNP can vote with their conscience along with the Lib Dems, but it will still get passed by a Labour/Tory majority. J If Labour form the government, I think they will have a lot of internal issues with Trident renewal anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capital Saint Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) What are peoples thoughts regarding the EU citizens vote? My wife (Lithuanian) voted for independence but a lot of work colleagues and other acquaintances from the EU now living in Scotland voted no. The thing is, they don't get a vote in the General Election. So, if we are using the referendum as a pointer to the numbers voting for the SNP or otherwise, is the loss of the EU citizens vote going to be significant one way or the other? Edited March 9, 2015 by Capital Saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 If Labour form the government, I think they will have a lot of internal issues with Trident renewal anyway. I'm not so sure. IMO if they scrape in they will have to govern in the middle of the road. No government since the War has got rid of Nuclear weapons. There's a lot of Realpolitik of government that will kick in. And remember the Global military industrial complex is a powerful beast and is not going to take lightly to a massive amount of £ not being spent. There is shareholder wealth to think about, don't you know. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wine bibber Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 If Labour form the government, I think they will have a lot of internal issues with Trident renewal anyway. I think your right here.It would be easy to delay trident renewal and claim to divert funds to more needy causes in the short term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 That's what I'm trying to establish... My memory suggests, although purely going from SNP and CND supporters opinions, that Trident was a Red Line to a case by case agreement with Labour. The Guardian interview, which I've watched, suggests that has now changed. Which part of "No", don't you understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I not sure Trident is as big an issue for the SNP as it used to be. More and more folk at UK level don't want to renew it. We can't afford to renew it. IMO, it wont be renewed. If the UK is to have nuclear weapons going forward it will only happen if the US pays for them. Which is only fair considering they are effectively US weapons anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jie Bie Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 We shouldn't ally with the Borg just to fight species 8472 to use a star trek analogy. Even if it gets us closer to our destination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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