First Female First Minister

[Toepoke]

Interesting feature on the Beeb, the world's female leaders...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30087358

[kumnio]

If I may rephrase...

In the absence of any inside knowledge, it would be my guess, based on my life experience, and supported by many, many social studies, that their gender would not have been the deciding factor.

For males being overlooked, or females, or both?

I think you have said that your past was the steel industry, or something akin to this, at the top of that industry Id expect 80-90% male domination, and Id find that perfectly acceptable, and thats just called realism, not sexism.

I would like to see some genuine studies on this subject, anyone looking at it purely hoping to see a 50/50 split is being simplistic beyond belief.

For anyone to suggest that the entire system is biased towards men, well thats just staggeringly inept. The system isnt perfect, women do not have equality, but the income issue is of far more importance to the general public that this faux idea that we need forced 'equality' at the top.

[G-Man]

Nicola Sturgeon becoming FM shows not only what Females can achieve if they put their minds to it but also what anyone from a working class background can achieve.

She is to be congratulated.

It's not their minds. it's men's minds who have to believe women can do it.

ah ha ha, sorry never understood that at first read. Are you saying I am 'on my period'? Well this thread is a bit of a reversal in many ways. But yeah I am. Permanently.

How many times I've heard that comment in my life when I've been pissed off for a legitimate reason.

Ach you know this all pervasive and general 'women are good and men are bad' shit gets on my teats. My life experience is that you find as many utter prikks in the manworld as find utter kunts in the womanworld. If you want to draw conclusions based on sex here is one - only one female PM to date - Maggie Thatcher.

You get chunts in both sexes but when women in charge are mentioned Thatcher is always thrown up. Blair left her standing in the utterly abhorrent stakes.

And if you think I am going to rise to this...

I will I'm afraid.

Yes millions died but the biggest lie is 'the first casualty in war if truth', is it fu ck, it's females. Rape, murder, pillage recognise that expression? How many times throughout history are vast numbers of men raped by invading forces. Fu ck all to do with sex, all about power and destruction of souls. How many major religions put women on equal footings? How long till women got the vote, WW1 was a war not a fight for votes. White feathers, they handed them out as so many women were thick as mince due to lack of education. I know you'll come back with educated women who did it but they were too busy covering their legs, passing out in corsets, dying through childbirth to study war records.

I would heartily disagree with that.

I can't remember why I quoted this but probably as much mince as Thplinth. (still want to be in GTA though.)

Biggest frustration I have is the amount of times I have seen fantastic skilled women effectively give up their career when they have kids. Priorities change and have seen many times where they no longer wish to work full time or indeed climb the corporate ladder.

I believe this to be a major factor in us not achieving 50/50 at the top end. I genuinely have not seen or heard anyone indicate in any boardrooms/management meetings where decisions are made to prevent woman from going for interviews for roles. In fact , the only evidence of any discrimination I have seen is in positive discrimination.

How many times when a woman is out do people say "oh is *insert dad's name' babysitting?" No he's the fu cking dad, he's not a babysitter. How often when men are out would anyone even think to ask who was looking after the children? I have many mother's as clients and when the children are unwell and unable to go to nursery/child minder it, without exception in my personal experience, falls to the mum to sort out where the child has to go or she stays off work. It even falls to them to sort out the childcare in the first place. How many businesses won't give certain jobs to women of child bearing years as they may take time off to have children? How many men would be stupid enough to talk openly about this discrimination?

A few years ago there was a picture of Paul McArtney in the paper his flabby belly hanging out over his shorts whilst walking on the beach and they story was how good he was looking for his age! Few days later they had some female celebrity who was looking very similar to Paul but she was being slagged. I've listened to fat, bald and deeply unattractive men pass comments on women on away trips who in comparison to them were near model like.

I can't put myself into men's shoes and men definitely cannot understand women's lives. Walk along a road with your dog that you walk every night but one night have a fu ckwad walk too close deliberately intimidating you and know you can't do anything about it as no matter how brave you are when push comes to shove most men can physically overpower women and then do far more damage than woman can to men. I'm sure someone will come back with how many men are attacked, beaten up, killed by other men but check out figures of wives killed by husbands/partners every week. Rape figures against women as against men.

I was very lucky to be brought up by very strong women but i was also exceptionally lucky that my grandpa and biological father had the upmost respect for women and enjoyed their company, in my father's case more than he enjoyed the company of men.

Do you know what, I may as well tell my rabbits all this, not a fu cking clue why I'm on a predominantly male board talking about this. If anyone still thinks all things are equal and women and men are judged on equal terms then they'll never change. I don't blame men, it's like the women who handed out the white feathers, it comes from deep rooted ignorance, lack of knowledge and learning and years and years of indoctrination.

[OLAS]

Aww whoopy ing doo. I was quite see sad to see the back of a great man but apparently I should be celebrating the election of a woman for being a woman. Load of garbage. Nicola got the job because she was the best candidate. Celebtrate that FFS.

Just like kumino said, I agree with this. It never crossed my mind she was... a she. She is the right person for the job. Just like the ideal person for SLab is a monkey.

Having been brought up by two women since the age of 2, I'm delighted about this. Didn't do me any harm (although some may argue to the contrary....).

Lesbian son? Good on ye!

Think i fell in love with her when i seen her tartan heels

She's not got a fat arse though... I think we can almost picture your perfect woman the woman who gets the top job in your hoose

[phart]

Oh and if there is a media war on men it is being carried out by men - 30% women in top media jobs

I don't know why folk are arguing, my understanding is woman still get paid less, under-represented , worse conditions than men. (That understanding may be wrong, but so might everyone else)

It's of no surprise though, men always try and domesticate the hungers they can't manage. For hunger we domesticated our food stuff, for procreation....?

i've even noticed this being reported lately on the radio so if i'm picking it up from mainstream media by chance it seems likely anyone who watched or reads the news would be informed as well.

[phart]

I don't know why folk are arguing, my understanding is woman still get paid less, under-represented , worse conditions than men. (That understanding may be wrong, but so might everyone else)

It's of no surprise though, men always try and domesticate the hungers they can't manage. For hunger we domesticated our food stuff, for procreation....?

i've even noticed this being reported lately on the radio so if i'm picking it up from mainstream media by chance it seems likely anyone who watched or reads the news would be informed as well.

there is also problems the other way, for example females get treated more leniently in sentencing for crimes. Just to acknowledge them.

[thplinth]

It's not their minds. it's men's minds who have to believe women can do it.

How many times I've heard that comment in my life when I've been pissed off for a legitimate reason.

You get chunts in both sexes but when women in charge are mentioned Thatcher is always thrown up. Blair left her standing in the utterly abhorrent stakes.

Yes millions died but the biggest lie is 'the first casualty in war if truth', is it fu ck, it's females. Rape, murder, pillage recognise that expression? How many times throughout history are vast numbers of men raped by invading forces. Fu ck all to do with sex, all about power and destruction of souls. How many major religions put women on equal footings? How long till women got the vote, WW1 was a war not a fight for votes. White feathers, they handed them out as so many women were thick as mince due to lack of education. I know you'll come back with educated women who did it but they were too busy covering their legs, passing out in corsets, dying through childbirth to study war records.

I believe truth is the first casualty but not the biggest. The First World War was not fought for the vote but after they had sent hundreds of thousands of conscripts to their deaths for fukk all they were forced to otherwise there would have been a revolution in Britain. It was only the fact so many men had been slaughtered and maimed that they were forced into it.

Ten years later they gave women the vote but all you hear now is about poor Emelline Pankhurst. Who incidentally was a big white feather merchant...

World War I[edit]

In August 1914, at the start of the First World War, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather with support from the prominent author Mrs Humphrey Ward. The organization aimed to shame men into enlisting in the British Army by persuading women to present them with a white feather if they were not wearing a uniform.[2][3]

This was joined by prominent feminists and suffragettes of the time, such as Emmeline Pankhurst and her daughter Christabel. They, in addition to handing out the feathers, also lobbied to institute an involuntary draft of men, including those who lacked votes due to being too young or not owning property.[4][5][6]

The campaign was very effective[citation needed], and spread throughout several other nations in the Empire, so much so that it started to cause problems for the government when public servants came under pressure to enlist. This prompted the Home Secretary, Reginald McKenna, to issue employees in state industries with lapel badges reading "King and Country" to indicate that they too were serving the war effort. Likewise, the Silver War Badge, given to service personnel who had been honourably discharged due to wounds or sickness, was first issued in September 1916 to prevent veterans from being challenged for not wearing uniform. The poetry from the period indicates that the campaign was not popular amongst soldiers (e.g. Wilfred Owen's Dulce et Decorum Est[citation needed]) - not least because soldiers who were home on leave could find themselves presented with the feathers.

One such was Private Ernest Atkins who was on leave from the Western Front. He was riding a tram when he was presented with a white feather by a girl sitting behind him. He smacked her across the face with his pay book saying: "Certainly I'll take your feather back to the boys at Passchendaele. I'm in civvies because people think my uniform might be lousy, but if I had it on I wouldn't be half as lousy as you." [7]

The supporters of the campaign were not easily put off. A woman who confronted a young man in a London park demanded to know why he was not in the army. "Because I am a German", he replied. He received a white feather anyway.[8]

Perhaps the most ironic use of a white feather was when one was presented to Seaman George Samson who was on his way in civilian clothes to a public reception in his honour. Samson had been awarded the Victoria Cross for gallantry in the Gallipoli campaign.[9]

Roland Gwynne, later mayor of Eastbourne (1929–1931) and lover of suspected serial killer John Bodkin Adams, received a feather from a relative. This prompted him to enlist, and he subsequently received the Distinguished Service Order for bravery.[10] The writer Compton Mackenzie, then a serving soldier, complained about the activities of the Order of the White Feather. He argued that these "idiotic young women were using white feathers to get rid of boyfriends of whom they were tired". The pacifist Fenner Brockway claimed that he received so many white feathers he had enough to make a fan.

The white feather campaign was briefly renewed during World War II.[11][12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather

Edited November 20, 2014 by thplinth

[ParisInAKilt]

I don't know why folk are arguing, my understanding is woman still get paid less, under-represented , worse conditions than men. (That understanding may be wrong, but so might everyone else)

I work in Health, an industry dominated by females but generally managerial roles are held in the majority by males. Not sure why that is.

Edited November 20, 2014 by ParisInAKilt

[Armchair Bob]

there is also problems the other way, for example females get treated more leniently in sentencing for crimes. Just to acknowledge them.

Easier to get a lift hitch hiking if you are a woman.

Better paid modelling jobs.

After that, I am struggling to think of many in-built advantages in society for women when compared to those for men...

But, we've come a long way, this isn't Scandinavia but it's not the Victorian era either. The key to further advances is education - not just of girls but of boys.

[Lamia]

For males being overlooked, or females, or both?

I think you have said that your past was the steel industry, or something akin to this, at the top of that industry Id expect 80-90% male domination, and Id find that perfectly acceptable, and thats just called realism, not sexism.

Why?

[thplinth]

And I agree with you about the rapes.

'They raped every German female from eight to 80'

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

[scoobydoo]

After that, I am struggling to think of many in-built advantages in society for women when compared to those for men...

Retirement age and a free week to do all at work every month except greet.

Anyway, what a bizarre headline in the Hootsman.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-28-against-new-referendum-1-3607362

[thplinth]

And I do not mean to pick out Russians that is just one example, Nanking being another with many many more.... Fact is rape has become a 'weapon of war'.

Maybe you would reply men make the wars. Well some undoubtedly do but most others just get maimed or die in them. So perhaps men and women are both victims of something else?

They have done a brilliant job fracturing us into groups that blame each other instead of looking elsewhere. Colours, classes, sexes and most recently the young versus the old, a new one even for me, although I do recall you lambasting the baby boomers on here recently G-man. (But as that was No related I let it go. )

[phart]

Nature fractured us into male and female not "they"

[Orraloon]

Nicola Sturgeon becoming FM shows not only what Females can achieve if they put their minds to it but also what anyone from a working class background can achieve.

She is to be congratulated.

To me that is more important than the fact that she is a woman. Somebody from her background (woman or man) will never get to be heed honcho at Westminster.

[thplinth]

Nature fractured us into male and female not "they"

Same with colours. 'Who blame each other' however is not down to nature.

[Lamia]

Retirement age

Not me

[Lamia]

To me that is more important than the fact that she is a woman. Somebody from her background (woman or man) will never get to be heed honcho at Westminster.

The woman is still very significant there. How many women leaders have their been a Westminster

[Orraloon]

The woman is still very significant there. How many women leaders have their been a Westminster

It's clearly significant for you. Not so much for me though. She is clearly the best person for the job and she has said she will continue the fight for independence. That's good enough for me.

[Lamia]

It's clearly significant for you. Not so much for me though. She is clearly the best person for the job and she has said she will continue the fight for independence. That's good enough for me.

So the fact that there have been virtually no women leaders isn't significant for you? I think that demonstrates the issue

No one is disputing that Nicola isn't the best person for the job what I am disputing is that the best person for the job is more likely to be a man

[Orraloon]

So the fact that there have been virtually no women leaders isn't significant for you? I think that demonstrates the issue

No one is disputing that Nicola isn't the best person for the job what I am disputing is that the best person for the job is more likely to be a man

She is our 5th First Minister. During the tenure of the other 4 male First Ministers, which women do you think would have been better for the job and how do you think they were prevented from getting it?

[thplinth]

What, no thread already on this historic day?

Well done Nicola - exciting times ahead

Well I read your first sentence as some sort of insinuation, that we were somehow being typical men for not celebrating Nicola's ascension. Truth is I was feeling pretty sad that Alex was simultaneously stepping down and the comment just jarred but reading it again I was a bit rude, an overreaction on my part. I stand by the points I made I just could have said it better. Sorry for any offense. (Hopefully G-Man has not retired in disgust.) Everything is ing me off right now (well for the last two months at least). I'll wind it in.

Congrats. She has big shoes to fill.

[thplinth]

Well it was noticeable that many No-women had a real loathing of the SNP and in particular Alex Salmond. I'll be curious to see how the same folk talk about Nicola and the SNP a year from now. Maybe this is the way to turn them to Yes...

[kumnio]

No one is disputing that Nicola isn't the best person for the job what I am disputing is that the best person for the job is more likely to be a man

Unfortunately, the best candidate will usually be a man.

Thats no my fault, nor Orraloons though, you may blame the male sex, and you may have a point, but Id argue that you need to look elsewhere as well.

I recall that you posted a comment about being sick of women in the build up to the Referendum, you said most were uninterested in real life and only interested in soaps, or something like that.

In the campaign run up, I was at many meetings, marches and debates, and the majority, if not significant majority of attendees were men. These were free to attend, most were open to the public, so why the difference in attendance?

Why is there a need for a Women for Independence group? If I were invited to a Men for Independence group, Id tell them where to go.

Theres a few photos from the most politically engaged period of our lives, and the majority are men.

No one is saying its an ideal world, but woman up and stop passing the buck. Also, as much as some dont want to accept it, children will still be an issue for a significant number of women, and that quite simply will affect top position stats.

[jock strap]

Good luck to Nicola.