First Female First Minister

[kumnio]

The lives of those families in Dundee was horrendous my point was simply that children can be looked after by either parent, We could also improve childcare significantly

My much earlier point of men receiving better pay than women would lead to many families having a working dad and stay at home/part time work mum, than the other way round.

Equal pay is far more important, incredibly more important in fact.

[Lamia]

My much earlier point of men receiving better pay than women would lead to many families having a working dad and stay at home/part time work mum, than the other way round.

Equal pay is far more important, incredibly more important in fact.

Have I disagreed this this?

[phart]

thatcher v kinnock being a reverse example.

I'm too young to accurately remember how they were judged at the time.

[kumnio]

You think I am wrong - I think you are wrong and any women who agree with you. Dundee proves it.

Not sure that the 1800s are really the best barometer of whats possible.

[Lamia]

Not sure that the 1800s are really the best barometer of whats possible.

Of course it is. Times change they can change again. There is no reason whatsoever that with more male involvement in childcare and/or improved childcare facilities and costs that more women can't end up in more senior roles

Edited November 22, 2014 by Lamia

[kumnio]

Of course it is. Times change they can change again. There is no reason whatsoever that with more male involvement in childcare and/or improved childcare facilities and costs that more women can't end up in more senior roles

In the 1800s, women were treated appallingly, were working in conditions that men wouldnt work, paid a pittance for long hard days, looking after children wasnt quite as important as kids in poor families had terrible death rates, or were forced into work before they even hit ten years old.

New Lanark would have been a better example than Dundee.

Had we voted for Indepedence, we may have had a far better system, we may still under the SNP.

One of my girls at work had to do overtime today, she earns just under £11 an hour, which is a decent rate for Dundee, she had to pay her childminder time and a half today, so barely broke even. Its shite, but its the way it is sadly.

[thplinth]

In the 1800s, women were treated appallingly, were working in conditions that men wouldnt work, paid a pittance for long hard days, looking after children wasnt quite as important as kids in poor families had terrible death rates, or were forced into work before they even hit ten years old.

New Lanark would have been a better example than Dundee.

Had we voted for Indepedence, we may have had a far better system, we may still under the SNP.

One of my girls at work had to do overtime today, she earns just under £11 an hour, which is a decent rate for Dundee, she had to pay her childminder time and a half today, so barely broke even. Its shite, but its the way it is sadly.

It is a treadmill.

[Lamia]

In the 1800s, women were treated appallingly, were working in conditions that men wouldnt work, paid a pittance for long hard days, looking after children wasnt quite as important as kids in poor families had terrible death rates, or were forced into work before they even hit ten years old.

I was simply making the point that women didn't have to be the ones who stay at home. I wasn't making any wider point I totally accept the women were treated appallingly as were all working class people.

On the subject of Dundee it really helped me understand why it is like it is today and its socialist roots. Really enjoyed my few days there

[G-Man]

For me personally it's not just women in Scotland and or Britain it's women the world over. Songs out about Ebola, charity shows to end poverty/starvation/aids/malaria when every single minute of every single day rape is being used as a weapon of war. Literally since things have been recorded women have been treated as objects and in the majority of the world for the majority of recorded time as 3rd class citizens. African continent today. Far East today. Much of the Middle East today. Whoop de doop we're no doing too bad in Scotland, 3 women leading parties. 1 through merit, 1 because she wouldn't argue and one because she was a lesbian and therefore her party were 'pure modern'. Women have to look after the weans, why? Because men, on the whole,are still paid more than women. Ever met a divorced women who left the kids with their dad? Fu cking hell they're ostracised. Its nice that some people think we're all equal but if you think that's how it is in the real world you're deluded. Someone earlier talked about age discrimination and rich and poor divide. We all get old and rich can become poor and vice versa, the latter not easily and not often I accept but it can happen. Apart from gender reassignment women don't all become men. Regarding feathers Thplinth, horrible and I doubt any women would disagree but women were on the whole kept uneducated and ignorant then. I'm sure they were all carried away by the sheer joy of actually being able to do something the high heid yins were telling them was important war work. I hope the 'canaries' especially the 100's who died maybe made up a wee bit for the White feather brigade. Or maybe the young women who against all sorts of odds worked and died in hospitals near the front or at home looking after men with injuries never seen or dealt with before helped a bit. No they didn't fight but then again they weren't even allowed to choose divorce easily or treated as equals in marriage. Everything left to sons, not allowed on house deeds/mortgages, etc so front line action definitely wasn't available. In fact 100 years later we're still arguing that point!

I'm on a train trying to type this on a piffly wee screen so all errors Apple's fault. Phart I probably should have retired with your endorsement ringing in my ears. ?

[mariokempes56]

Miliband has been criticised about looking like a cartoon character, looking weird eating a bacon roll, having scary eyes, sniffing someones hair, getting caught in the headlights.

Lamont has been criticised about her BBC income tax interview, her dreadful FMQ performances, her appalling performances on debates.

Lets beat everyone with the same stick.

Yep 100%

[Lamia]

For me personally it's not just women in Scotland and or Britain it's women the world over. Songs out about Ebola, charity shows to end poverty/starvation/aids/malaria when every single minute of every single day rape is being used as a weapon of war. Literally since things have been recorded women have been treated as objects and in the majority of the world for the majority of recorded time as 3rd class citizens. African continent today. Far East today. Much of the Middle East today. Whoop de doop we're no doing too bad in Scotland, 3 women leading parties. 1 through merit, 1 because she wouldn't argue and one because she was a lesbian and therefore her party were 'pure modern'. Women have to look after the weans, why? Because men, on the whole,are still paid more than women. Ever met a divorced women who left the kids with their dad? Fu cking hell they're ostracised. Its nice that some people think we're all equal but if you think that's how it is in the real world you're deluded. Someone earlier talked about age discrimination and rich and poor divide. We all get old and rich can become poor and vice versa, the latter not easily and not often I accept but it can happen. Apart from gender reassignment women don't all become men. Regarding feathers Thplinth, horrible and I doubt any women would disagree but women were on the whole kept uneducated and ignorant then. I'm sure they were all carried away by the sheer joy of actually being able to do something the high heid yins were telling them was important war work. I hope the 'canaries' especially the 100's who died maybe made up a wee bit for the White feather brigade. Or maybe the young women who against all sorts of odds worked and died in hospitals near the front or at home looking after men with injuries never seen or dealt with before helped a bit. No they didn't fight but then again they weren't even allowed to choose divorce easily or treated as equals in marriage. Everything left to sons, not allowed on house deeds/mortgages, etc so front line action definitely wasn't available. In fact 100 years later we're still arguing that point!

I'm on a train trying to type this on a piffly wee screen so all errors Apple's fault. Phart I probably should have retired with your endorsement ringing in my ears.

No you shouldn't have - great post

[Flora MaDonald]

For me personally it's not just women in Scotland and or Britain it's women the world over. Songs out about Ebola, charity shows to end poverty/starvation/aids/malaria when every single minute of every single day rape is being used as a weapon of war. Literally since things have been recorded women have been treated as objects and in the majority of the world for the majority of recorded time as 3rd class citizens. African continent today. Far East today. Much of the Middle East today. Whoop de doop we're no doing too bad in Scotland, 3 women leading parties. 1 through merit, 1 because she wouldn't argue and one because she was a lesbian and therefore her party were 'pure modern'. Women have to look after the weans, why? Because men, on the whole,are still paid more than women. Ever met a divorced women who left the kids with their dad? Fu cking hell they're ostracised. Its nice that some people think we're all equal but if you think that's how it is in the real world you're deluded. Someone earlier talked about age discrimination and rich and poor divide. We all get old and rich can become poor and vice versa, the latter not easily and not often I accept but it can happen. Apart from gender reassignment women don't all become men. Regarding feathers Thplinth, horrible and I doubt any women would disagree but women were on the whole kept uneducated and ignorant then. I'm sure they were all carried away by the sheer joy of actually being able to do something the high heid yins were telling them was important war work. I hope the 'canaries' especially the 100's who died maybe made up a wee bit for the White feather brigade. Or maybe the young women who against all sorts of odds worked and died in hospitals near the front or at home looking after men with injuries never seen or dealt with before helped a bit. No they didn't fight but then again they weren't even allowed to choose divorce easily or treated as equals in marriage. Everything left to sons, not allowed on house deeds/mortgages, etc so front line action definitely wasn't available. In fact 100 years later we're still arguing that point!

I'm on a train trying to type this on a piffly wee screen so all errors Apple's fault. Phart I probably should have retired with your endorsement ringing in my ears.

Well said, Mrs. Vaughan

[G-Man]

Well said, Mrs. Vaughan

Ray?

Long journey home still has my brain rattled.

[thplinth]

For me personally it's not just women in Scotland and or Britain it's women the world over. Songs out about Ebola, charity shows to end poverty/starvation/aids/malaria when every single minute of every single day rape is being used as a weapon of war. Literally since things have been recorded women have been treated as objects and in the majority of the world for the majority of recorded time as 3rd class citizens. African continent today. Far East today. Much of the Middle East today. Whoop de doop we're no doing too bad in Scotland, 3 women leading parties. 1 through merit, 1 because she wouldn't argue and one because she was a lesbian and therefore her party were 'pure modern'. Women have to look after the weans, why? Because men, on the whole,are still paid more than women. Ever met a divorced women who left the kids with their dad? Fu cking hell they're ostracised. Its nice that some people think we're all equal but if you think that's how it is in the real world you're deluded. Someone earlier talked about age discrimination and rich and poor divide. We all get old and rich can become poor and vice versa, the latter not easily and not often I accept but it can happen. Apart from gender reassignment women don't all become men. Regarding feathers Thplinth, horrible and I doubt any women would disagree but women were on the whole kept uneducated and ignorant then. I'm sure they were all carried away by the sheer joy of actually being able to do something the high heid yins were telling them was important war work. I hope the 'canaries' especially the 100's who died maybe made up a wee bit for the White feather brigade. Or maybe the young women who against all sorts of odds worked and died in hospitals near the front or at home looking after men with injuries never seen or dealt with before helped a bit. No they didn't fight but then again they weren't even allowed to choose divorce easily or treated as equals in marriage. Everything left to sons, not allowed on house deeds/mortgages, etc so front line action definitely wasn't available. In fact 100 years later we're still arguing that point!

I'm on a train trying to type this on a piffly wee screen so all errors Apple's fault. Phart I probably should have retired with your endorsement ringing in my ears.

Fair enough, look no further than india right now for a nasty example, but this thread was about Scotland and Nicola becoming the first female FM here. So the fact it did not even register with most of us this board is I suspect because (had Lamont not quit) we would currently have female leaders of every major party.

[thplinth]

And also rape is not male versus female thing as men rape men as well. A crime which goes massively unreported I would think. Most of the stuff coming out about these care homes where all the abuse took place seems to involve young boys. Prison rape in the US is a huge problem. Folk like Carl Panzram...

Edited November 24, 2014 by thplinth

[MacWalka]

I was simply making the point that women didn't have to be the ones who stay at home. I wasn't making any wider point I totally accept the women were treated appallingly as were all working class people.

On the subject of Dundee it really helped me understand why it is like it is today and its socialist roots. Really enjoyed my few days there

It is correct that women don't have to be the ones to stay at home but more often than not in my experience, they want to.

My sister-in-law is now part-time after having a kid, not because she needs to stay at home but because she wants to. She earns more doing part-time than her husband doing full-time. Before she had a kid, she was very career driven, very ambitious and was destined to be in a top job but as soon as she had a kid, that all seemed to become secondary.

I know several women in my work that are the same. High fliers that as soon as they have a kid, they just aren't interested in climbing the "corporate ladder". None of them have been mistreated by the work that I know of, none of them have been passed up for promotions they should have gotten but once they start having a family, their priorities change.

Equality is a noble goal but I think it will be hard to realise in terms of a 50/50 split in the top jobs as I just think that women in general lose interest in that aspect (at least for a while) when they have kids. It may be something biological in that having a baby growing inside for 9 months before going through childbirth will have an effect on a woman, I don't know. After all child birth predates jobs and careers.

I do agree however that women are mistreated by society as a whole and that needs to be addressed. Women being paid less than a man in the same job (ridiculous IMO). Although in general I don't agree that two people doing the same job should be paid the same but any differences in pay should be because of difference in ability rather than difference in gender. The current trend for having women "rolemodels" such as Kim Kardashian or singers behaving like strippers on stage does little for teenage girls aspirations.

My work is very male orientated as it's traditionally a male industry but the women that are here do get promoted well and the management positions are definitely more fairly balanced compared to the rest of the industry. I think more needs to be done in terms or inspiring teenage girls to try and get into different industries in the first place though.

[kumnio]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30183711

Not very helpful comments.

[Lamia]

It is correct that women don't have to be the ones to stay at home but more often than not in my experience, they want to.

My sister-in-law is now part-time after having a kid, not because she needs to stay at home but because she wants to. She earns more doing part-time than her husband doing full-time. Before she had a kid, she was very career driven, very ambitious and was destined to be in a top job but as soon as she had a kid, that all seemed to become secondary.

I know several women in my work that are the same. High fliers that as soon as they have a kid, they just aren't interested in climbing the "corporate ladder". None of them have been mistreated by the work that I know of, none of them have been passed up for promotions they should have gotten but once they start having a family, their priorities change.

Equality is a noble goal but I think it will be hard to realise in terms of a 50/50 split in the top jobs as I just think that women in general lose interest in that aspect (at least for a while) when they have kids. It may be something biological in that having a baby growing inside for 9 months before going through childbirth will have an effect on a woman, I don't know. After all child birth predates jobs and careers.

I do agree however that women are mistreated by society as a whole and that needs to be addressed. Women being paid less than a man in the same job (ridiculous IMO). Although in general I don't agree that two people doing the same job should be paid the same but any differences in pay should be because of difference in ability rather than difference in gender. The current trend for having women "rolemodels" such as Kim Kardashian or singers behaving like strippers on stage does little for teenage girls aspirations.

My work is very male orientated as it's traditionally a male industry but the women that are here do get promoted well and the management positions are definitely more fairly balanced compared to the rest of the industry. I think more needs to be done in terms or inspiring teenage girls to try and get into different industries in the first place though.

Some women may want to and that is fine. Some men may also want to and that is fine to. I do believe however that some women want to because they are conditioned that way. This is the way it is always been - people often just conform to the norm

[thplinth]

When I mentioned the fact that men die a significant amount of years before women and that we kill ourselves in several multiples more than women it was almost sneered at.

So I ask. What net-benefits do you think men are enjoying that can explain this 'anomaly'?

We have listened to your hardships but we face death and disfigurement not unequal pay.

Maybe these stats indicate the truth... that these male 'benefits' we enjoy are not benefits but are a burden we take on to give you and our children a softer ride because we love you.

Edited November 25, 2014 by thplinth

[phart]

thplinth you think no civilians die in wars or get dismembered?

"

Number of women and children killed in Iraq air raids 'disproportionately high' Execution-style killings, not headline-grabbing bombings, have been the leading cause of death among civilians in the Iraq war, a study showed."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/5161326/Number-of-women-and-children-killed-in-Iraq-air-raids-disproportionately-high.html

Least the men get weapons and get to gang up in armour etc.

EDIT: Seemingly a study on civilian casualites in war says

"On the average, half of the deaths caused by war happened to civilians, only some of whom were killed by famine associated with war...The civilian percentage share of war-related deaths remained at about 50% from century to century."

Edited November 25, 2014 by phart

[thplinth]

No. (I was carrying on a discussion with Lamia / G-Man about the status of men v women in the UK's (early 20th Century to be specific).

edit:admittedly across multiple threads, sorry for any confusion.

Edited November 25, 2014 by thplinth

[phart]

Just as well i found the weakness in the point before they did

[thplinth]

Only if Lamia Gman or Nicola is Iraqi.

[Flure]

Only if Lamia Gman or Nicola is Iraqi.

Here

,

[ParisInAKilt]

http://youtu.be/4z46JXK92e0