Nathan Patterson....🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿💪

[BryanBlessed]

3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

What do you mean by top player? Ferguson was never a top player anyways.

If you are saying he wouldn't have played in the epl then I would disagree. He was big strong athletic and had underrated ability with his feet. By the late 90s and early 00s the epl was in full flow and had top talent from around the globe on crazy wages. Ferguson was good enough to play in that period.

I think he would still be a lower half epl striker if he was around today especially if he was less injury prone.

A lot of his game (I know he was good with his feet) revolved around intimidation and thuggery. Some of the things he used to do to get space would simply be impossible now. 

[mccaughey85]

17 minutes ago, BryanBlessed said:

A lot of his game (I know he was good with his feet) revolved around intimidation and thuggery. Some of the things he used to do to get space would simply be impossible now. 

Yeh I see your point. He would maybe not get away with being as rough or dirty as he was.

I still think he would be playing epl football as he was actually quite a decent player when he was fit.

[duncan II]

3 hours ago, N4Footsoldier said:

Iand Paterson just about makes the squad as 2nd choice 

So he doesn't quite make it?

[N4Footsoldier]

48 minutes ago, duncan II said:

So he doesn't quite make it?

Your full backs in the squad will be: Robertson, Tierney, Hickey, Paterson.

Then an additional 4or so centre backs to complete the defence

[theabsentee]

3 hours ago, broraboy said:

T.Livramento is only filling in at LB due to Newcastle's injury crisis, S.Burn will slot back into that position when he returns! 

As for England LB position, that belongs to Luke Shaw

With L.Shaw now returning to the fold (after injury) he is pretty much a shoe in for a G.Southgate selection along with B.Chilwell who has now racked up a fair few caps for Engerland. As for the RB situation, which is where T.Livramento plays - he’s behind so many players. The list is almost endless with K.Trippier T.Arnold K.Walker R.James & R.Lewis (think he might be left footed though) it will be a big ask to even get a selection and may have to wait several years? 

 

Livramento dropped when bang average Dan Burn is fit I really can't see that.

Wish what you where saying Is true that Livramento is too far down the pecking order to make the England squad for the foreseeable future but I don't agree, I reckon there's only 2 injury prone left backs & 3 to 4 right backs ahead of him. It just needs a couple of injuries & his versatility makes him a very useful edition to their squad. If he performs really well through until spring don't be surprised  if southgate selects him for their friendlies as he is also very aware he could lose him if he doesn't. 

[Orraloon]

2 hours ago, N4Footsoldier said:

Your full backs in the squad will be: Robertson, Tierney, Hickey, Paterson.

Then an additional 4or so centre backs to complete the defence

But you said earlier that Patterson wouldn't make the squad. Make your mind up.

[Caledonian Craig]

Kivramento is living the dream (his dream) playing for the country of his birth and country he has lived all of his life and has all his friends. On that note Scotland's full-backs/wing-backs at the Euros will be Robertson, Tierney, Hickey and Patterson.

[theabsentee]

5 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Kivramento is living the dream (his dream) playing for the country of his birth and country he has lived all of his life and has all his friends. On that note Scotland's full-backs/wing-backs at the Euros will be Robertson, Tierney, Hickey and Patterson.

I agree he will end up playing for England but I don't think he has been brought up as a child walking around his home with the 3 lions shirt on so it's hardly been his dream more likely just a preference.

[Caledonian Craig]

4 hours ago, theabsentee said:

I agree he will end up playing for England but I don't think he has been brought up as a child walking around his home with the 3 lions shirt on so it's hardly been his dream more likely just a preference.

Parents can only influence you so much. His mum being Scottish was bending his ear to represent Scotland. His dad was bending his ear for Portugal. That is all well and good but Tino realises he was born in England, educated in England, has English mates, learned his trade in England, lived all of his life in England and no doubt feels, personally, the closest affinity to England hence why he has been representing them through the various age groups. His bond to England is strong. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[theabsentee]

30 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Parents can only influence you so much. His mum being Scottish was bending his ear to represent Scotland. His dad was bending his ear for Portugal. That is all well and good but Tino realises he was born in England, educated in England, has English mates, learned his trade in England, lived all of his life in England and no doubt feels, personally, the closest affinity to England hence why he has been representing them through the various age groups. His bond to England is strong. 

I'm not disagreeing with you, he has said something about how much he enjoys playing for England as they have treated him so well through all the age groups though what I haven't heard him state is his reasons are he feels English. He may well have & does but people can & do have a change of heart so until he is capped there is still a glimmer of hope for his Scottish side of his family.

  Our coaching staff should never give up on trying to persuade players especially the ones with a first generation qualification to represent us. This isn't grovelling to take other countries rejects this is part of their duty to try to improve the squad & hopefully results.  I would say though players that qualify through grandparents such as Anderson, Barnes, Gordon etc etc should only be asked once or twice then draw the line under them unless they come back later asking to be considered.

[theabsentee]

52 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Parents can only influence you so much. His mum being Scottish was bending his ear to represent Scotland. His dad was bending his ear for Portugal. That is all well and good but Tino realises he was born in England, educated in England, has English mates, learned his trade in England, lived all of his life in England and no doubt feels, personally, the closest affinity to England hence why he has been representing them through the various age groups. His bond to England is strong. 

I certainly hope that Darren Fletcher has enough influence over his twins to eventually make them both commit if they are good enough. Really disappointed the Gray family at Leeds haven't persuaded Archie to play for us also due to the rumour his little brother might turn out to be even better.

[Caledonian Craig]

46 minutes ago, theabsentee said:

I certainly hope that Darren Fletcher has enough influence over his twins to eventually make them both commit if they are good enough. Really disappointed the Gray family at Leeds haven't persuaded Archie to play for us also due to the rumour his little brother might turn out to be even better.

That is my point though. Parental persuasion counts for very little. It is what is in the individual's heart, mind and soul that counts. Listening to a dad waxing on about how he played for Scotland to a child born and brought up in England won't cut much ice with a kid intent on taking his own path in life especially if their lives have been predominantly spent in England growing up alongside English mates etc. There will be a few who may be swayed from a very young age such as McTominay if their dad displayed a real passion for Scotland but in some siblings case their parents may not be as forceful or encouraging and happy to let their son choose especially if that child has shown traits of allegiance to England.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[ger intae them]

58 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

……. Parental persuasion counts for very little. It is what is in the individual's heart, mind and soul that counts…….

Everyone’s obviously different, but I think parental persuasion counts for a lot. What is in a persons ‘heart, mind and soul’ could/should absolutely be heavily influenced by parents & upbringing. There are numerous examples of both outcomes, of kids to Scottish parents going either way. Don Hutchinson being an example of nationality defined by strong family ties, not his birthplace.
I think anyone with a passion for Scotland should be pushing (yes, pushing) it on the kid and influencing as much as poss. The Fletcher and Gray households may be doing that and due circumstance the kids go the other way. That’s fair enough. I would say good luck to them individually but not to their country of choice 😏

Has been reported that Livramento’s mum is more keen on him playing for Scotland than his dad is in him playing for Portugal. That’s one box ticked but if the kid isn’t convinced then fair enough. 
barnes & Anderson can be forgotten as far as I’m concerned….. bin them off now.

 

[BryanBlessed]

18 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Yeh I see your point. He would maybe not get away with being as rough or dirty as he was.

I still think he would be playing epl football as he was actually quite a decent player when he was fit.

Yeah maybe. There are other players who probably wouldn't have been professionals in today's game.  Colin Hendry said he wouldn't have made it today.

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, ger intae them said:

Everyone’s obviously different, but I think parental persuasion counts for a lot. What is in a persons ‘heart, mind and soul’ could/should absolutely be heavily influenced by parents & upbringing. There are numerous examples of both outcomes, of kids to Scottish parents going either way. Don Hutchinson being an example of nationality defined by strong family ties, not his birthplace.
I think anyone with a passion for Scotland should be pushing (yes, pushing) it on the kid and influencing as much as poss. The Fletcher and Gray households may be doing that and due circumstance the kids go the other way. That’s fair enough. I would say good luck to them individually but not to their country of choice 😏

Has been reported that Livramento’s mum is more keen on him playing for Scotland than his dad is in him playing for Portugal. That’s one box ticked but if the kid isn’t convinced then fair enough. 
barnes & Anderson can be forgotten as far as I’m concerned….. bin them off now.

 

It only counts for a lot in certain circumstances. Yes his mum may have said she was keen on him playing for Scotland but if he has lived all of his life in England aside from a week here or a week there then there won't be any degree of affinity to Scotland and the same with his dad's opinion about Portugal. In Archie Gray's instance he has again been born and brought up in England. His dad (I am presuming) has lived down in England all of his son's life so would he be able to convince his son considering he has no desire to return to live in Scotland himself? The real pull is how strong a Scottish upbringing he has had if next to none then no chance will he be convinced in my opinion. Remember he and Fletcher's sons have all been born and raised in England and no doubt there best mates at school were all England daft which influences too.

Obviously, there are cases out there such as Hutchison, McTominay and such-like but I'd harbour a guess the right mix was there in there upbringing. Their dad's perhaps took them to Scotland a lot as kids and spoke about passion for Scotland and left an impression hence they represented us even though born in England. But that is not always the case. For me there has to be a spark there and I see none in Tino Livramento.

[mccaughey85]

Surprised Portugal have not called up livramento. Not sure what their right back situation is like but surely they don't have that many top right backs that they can overlook a talent like livramento.

[ger intae them]

Because he’s way less Portuguese than he is Scottish and maybe he’s made that clear? I think this is unlikely as they all hedge their bets and commit late…… it is a business decision to most of them.

[Hertsscot]

I fully expect, injury permitting, Robbo, Tierney, Hickey and Patterson to be our choices at the Euros. They'll not let us down. Four years down the line that might not be the case due to injury and aging. I'd hate to think that we missed out on Livramento because we hadn't asked. 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

I fully expect, injury permitting, Robbo, Tierney, Hickey and Patterson to be our choices at the Euros. They'll not let us down. Four years down the line that might not be the case due to injury and aging. I'd hate to think that we missed out on Livramento because we hadn't asked. 

I prefer the more realistic reasoning though going on past Clarke activities. Clarke I'd say with a degree of certainty has already approached him and been knocked back. Probably the approach being made when we had Robertson and Tierney ruled out injured. Clarke is not one for not asking as we have seen with Che Adams, Angus Gunn and Elliott Anderson. We also got a clue approaches had been made when the English media urged Southgate to act as other countries were courting Livramento which he responded to. And a few days later Livramento was in the press speaking about loving life representing the England U21's and playing for their boss Lee Carsley.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[Hertsscot]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I prefer the more realistic reasoning though going on past Clarke activities. Clarke I'd say with a degree of certainty has already approached him and been knocked back. Probably the approach being made when we had Robertson and Tierney ruled out injured. Clarke is not one for not asking as we have seen with Che Adams, Angus Gunn and Elliott Anderson. We also got a clue approaches had been made when the English media urged Southgate to act as other countries were courting Livramento which he responded to. And a few days later Livramento was in the press speaking about loving life representing the England U21's and playing for their boss Lee Carsley.

I suspect you're right. I guess what I felt was missing from the discussion was any consideration of the future. We're well provided for in terms of full backs for the next few years, injuries permitting, but we should always be looking ahead.

[ceudmilefailte]

12 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

That is my point though. Parental persuasion counts for very little. It is what is in the individual's heart, mind and soul that counts. Listening to a dad waxing on about how he played for Scotland to a child born and brought up in England won't cut much ice with a kid intent on taking his own path in life especially if their lives have been predominantly spent in England growing up alongside English mates etc. There will be a few who may be swayed from a very young age such as McTominay if their dad displayed a real passion for Scotland but in some siblings case their parents may not be as forceful or encouraging and happy to let their son choose especially if that child has shown traits of allegiance to England.

Have you got any children?

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Have you got any children?

I come from a big family and have experienced enough to be qualified to talk. I was moved down to England as a school kid and spent over two decades down there but never lost my Scottishness or desire to represent Scotland if I had ever been good enough. That was down to being within a Scottish bubble of my family. Also, being born and initially brought up in Scotland played an immense part. Livramento has not had that. His one connection is a Scottish mum but has a Portugese dad and was born in England so his connection is far less watered down to Scotland than mine.

People are clutching at massive straws maybe through desperation if they think Livramento is going to represent us. The clues are there. Not once in any interviews has he even remotely hinted he wants to or will represent us. He has referred to his mum being Scottish and she wants him to represent Scotland but he never added to that with any hint of also wanting to represent us. He alse referred to his Portugese dad wanting him to represent Portugal but again he never said that he would like to. He has represented England at numerous levels without waivering. Just recently he has enthused about what a privilege it is to play for England U21s and Lee Carsley. What more of a clue do people need?

Like I said earlier some do represent us who were born in England with Scottish parents or grandparents. It happens no doubt but it needs a spark from the individual and from press reports/ interviews/his career path and the way he talks in the media that spark is not there for Livramento. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[thesaint]

Amazing how topics on this forum take on a life of their own.This post started with big ramy stating quite rightly that Nathan Paterson should have knutted that w..ker that grabbed him by the throat and me quoting the Everton fan site saying they would have liked to see him do that to big Duncan Ferguson.Somehow it has ended up being about whether Paterson is good enough for Scotland and even posts about this Liveramento fella.Odd but amusing.😗🤣😉

[Caledonian Craig]

8 hours ago, thesaint said:

Amazing how topics on this forum take on a life of their own.This post started with big ramy stating quite rightly that Nathan Paterson should have knutted that w..ker that grabbed him by the throat and me quoting the Everton fan site saying they would have liked to see him do that to big Duncan Ferguson.Somehow it has ended up being about whether Paterson is good enough for Scotland and even posts about this Liveramento fella.Odd but amusing.😗🤣😉

Like I said in my first post on this topic Patterson will be in our Euros squad alongside Hickey, Tierney and Robertson. They are the personnel who have grafted to get us to Germany and who will represent us in the wing-back positions out there barring injuries and I don't see why we should have any problem with that.

[thesaint]

6 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Like I said in my first post on this topic Patterson will be in our Euros squad alongside Hickey, Tierney and Robertson. They are the personnel who have grafted to get us to Germany and who will represent us in the wing-back positions out there barring injuries and I don't see why we should have any problem with that.

Aye fair enough but i was making the point about the original post by Ramy being about Nathan Paterson and that Chelsea fud. It wasn't about his playing ability. Just thought it was amusing how the original post ended up going down a totally different route. 😄