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Daz1982
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Just watched 2nd half of France v Croatia there.

Croatia are everything that we could or should be. Tight and compact without the ball. Comfortable when on the ball, and look dangerous also.

It’s actually sickening how far behind we are.

We’d be lucky to string 3 passes together away to France before shiting the bed and giving the ball away. Croatia were composed throughout.

Since becoming independent in the early 90s, Croatia have reached a WC semi final and final. They have also reached the knock out stages on various occasions, taking some massive scalps along the way.

All with a population of 4 million people.

Yet the dinosaurs in charge of our game, ex players, managers etc seem to think it’s unachievable for us to reach these heights.

Why do we have no ambition to achieve more at our national sport, why is there such a deep rooted acceptance of failure?

 

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I think it's a cultural long term issue.

If half the country, included half the politicians believe we can't run our own affairs ,how can we move forward.

They have no ambition for their country and this attitude prevails throughout Scottish society.

 

Even after independence it'll take a generation to overcome.

God knows how low we will go if we continue down the dependent ,un ambitious ,we Cannae do it route.

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9 hours ago, Daz1982 said:

Just watched 2nd half of France v Croatia there.

Croatia are everything that we could or should be. Tight and compact without the ball. Comfortable when on the ball, and look dangerous also.

It’s actually sickening how far behind we are.

We’d be lucky to string 3 passes together away to France before shiting the bed and giving the ball away. Croatia were composed throughout.

Since becoming independent in the early 90s, Croatia have reached a WC semi final and final. They have also reached the knock out stages on various occasions, taking some massive scalps along the way.

All with a population of 4 million people.

Yet the dinosaurs in charge of our game, ex players, managers etc seem to think it’s unachievable for us to reach these heights.

Why do we have no ambition to achieve more at our national sport, why is there such a deep rooted acceptance of failure?

 

According to a news paper article I read, they also have pretty crap facilities to train in, yet produce a conveyor belt of talent

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14 hours ago, stocky said:

I think it's a cultural long term issue.

If half the country, included half the politicians believe we can't run our own affairs ,how can we move forward.

They have no ambition for their country and this attitude prevails throughout Scottish society.

 

Even after independence it'll take a generation to overcome.

God knows how low we will go if we continue down the dependent ,un ambitious ,we Cannae do it route.

It amazes me how many folk think independence will undoubtedly make us a great footballing nation.

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1 hour ago, todd said:

It amazes me how many folk think independence will undoubtedly make us a great footballing nation.

I dont think many people think it will undoubtedly make us a great footballing nation. It would however improve psychological barriers , I think most people agree that mindset is a large factor in success . 

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21 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I dont think many people think it will undoubtedly make us a great footballing nation. It would however improve psychological barriers , I think most people agree that mindset is a large factor in success . 

Yep, that's it.

I see the difference in mindset all the time here in Ireland, a place that has mostly shaken off its colonial past. It shows up in both a sporting and business context.

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2 hours ago, todd said:

It amazes me how many folk think independence will undoubtedly make us a great footballing nation.

how many people do you know think this? I am willing to bet its none

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1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

I dont think many people think it will undoubtedly make us a great footballing nation. It would however improve psychological barriers , I think most people agree that mindset is a large factor in success . 

Wales...?

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Just now, daviebee said:

Wales...?

Their current team contains the best forward they've ever produced, and one of their best ever midfielders. They're an outlier/aberration/anomaly. 

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Well Independence has nothing to do with it as when part of Yugoslavia they reached 2 finals of the Euro's and finished 4th at a world cup so not as if there has been an upturn since being independent. 

I'd also discount strength of league as the Scottish league on paper is stronger but I would imagine there are more opportunities for young Croatians. 

I do believe culture and weather is a major factor. The weather in this country is horrific between October and March and it does not suit a style of play appropriate for the modern game. 

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7 minutes ago, daviebee said:

Wales...?

As Dave says, they have an outstanding individual in a striker role. When you are not blessed with that your team needs  a strong psychological mindset to overcome the shortcomings. I do not believe we will ever flourish when we are in the UK . Even small things like build up to matches on TV , highlights etc. It is always England first, then whatever of the other 3 home nations is more successful at that particular time. Of course England brings a bigger tv audience but this whole pecking order being ingrained year after year,   has a psychological affect,  I don’t care what anyone says. 
We need to be ourselves , not one of the ‘three others’ in the UK ..

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15 minutes ago, Ak91 said:

Well Independence has nothing to do with it as when part of Yugoslavia they reached 2 finals of the Euro's and finished 4th at a world cup so not as if there has been an upturn since being independent. 

I'd also discount strength of league as the Scottish league on paper is stronger but I would imagine there are more opportunities for young Croatians. 

I do believe culture and weather is a major factor. The weather in this country is horrific between October and March and it does not suit a style of play appropriate for the modern game. 

I do agree the culture and weather is a factor.

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I think some of us want to believe independence is a factor but how can you measure that? it’s not held back other people in individual sports. Or maybe Murray would have won more if we were independent 😂

Ultimately we don’t produce good enough players. Croatia have consistently had a run of technically gifted guys who play in some of the best teams in Europe year after year. 

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Seems to be a lot less pride in our country since nationalism became so prominent.

Went to the pub on Saturday for the game and asked the manager(an old mate)if there were more in than usual, he said just me and the two Irish guys in the corner.He knew that would be the case but got premier sports in so he could watch the game himself.

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14 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I think some of us want to believe independence is a factor but how can you measure that? it’s not held back other people in individual sports. Or maybe Murray would have won more if we were independent 😂

 

He might of done, we'll never know. Generally speaking, would the 'independence generation' of kids born in an indy Scotland have more self-belief? It's not unreasonable to think so.

One thing i'm sure of - i don't think it's a co-incidence that someone as mentally strong and full of self-belief as him, turned out to be a Yesser in 2014.

 

Was reading a good article today about this whole subject. It's not really related to politics, but interesting nonetheless.

"

Divided We Fall

With his usual clarity, the Indian mystic, Osho, identified the heart of the problem:

‘And the most important thing is, if you are seeking success, you are already divided. Then your heart is not in the work, your heart is already in the result. If you are divided, you will not succeed. Success happens only to undivided hearts who are not worried about the consequence, the result, who are enjoying tremendously the journey itself, and are not concerned about the goal…

‘If you are concerned about success, success is not going to come to you, because your mind will be somewhere in the future and you will not be working in the present. And success can only come if the work is totally done in the present.’

Returning home from the pub, or grappling with a suitcase as the taxi awaits, our minds are indeed ‘somewhere in the future’.

When Ben Stokes was smashing the ball with abandon against Australia, he was doing so with an undivided heart. Success was so far-distant that thoughts of the future did not affect his ability to be focused on his work in the present, on the ball spinning towards him in the moment. When victory was out of sight, there was no question of him thinking, ‘I don’t know what to do’, because his mind wasn’t involved; there was no point. He was in his feelings, not in his head. The closer he came to success, the more his mind felt the magnetic pull of a looming, glorious triumph; the more it started to intrude.

Up to that point, thanks to thousands of hours of physical practice, physical learning, Stokes’ body had known exactly what to do. Alarmed by the prospect of ultimate glory, his mind took charge of the bat and failed. Rather than his body responding to the potential of every moment, his mind tried to impose its pre-determined idea on reality – ‘Now I have to be cautious with whatever comes’, or, ‘Now I have to smash whatever comes’ – in a way that was not in accord with the truth of the moment. In fact, Stokes’ mind didn’t need to do anything; it needed to get out of the way and allow his heart to be centred, undivided in feeling; to respond instinctively to every ball in the moment. After all, that was how he’d got to the brink of success in the first place.

Eight-time major tennis champion, Andre Agassi, wrote a very telling comment in his autobiography, ‘Open’. Agassi explained how, in the 1999 final of the French Open tournament, his opponent, Andrei Medvedev, won the first two sets with ease and came within five points of winning the match and championship in straight sets. But after this opportunity slipped through Medvedev’s fingers, everything changed. Agassi wrote:

‘Now we play on my terms. I move Medvedev side to side, hit the ball big, do everything [coach] Brad [Gilbert] said to do. Medvedev is a step slower, notably distracted. He’s had too long to think about winning. He was five points away, five points, and it’s haunting him. He’s going over and over it in his mind. He’s telling himself, I was so close. I was there. The finish line! He’s living in the past, and I’m in the present. He’s thinking, I’m feeling. Don’t think, Andre. Hit harder.’ (Andre Agassi, ‘Open’, Alfred A. Knopf, 2009, p.302, my emphasis)

When our mind ‘is already in the result’, we are split between our heads and our feelings – like Medvedev, we are hardly in the present at all – so our energies are divided, weak, faltering.

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5 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Seems to be a lot less pride in our country since nationalism became so prominent.

 

A symptom of the political divide i imagine.

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6 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Seems to be a lot less pride in our country since nationalism became so prominent.

Went to the pub on Saturday for the game and asked the manager(an old mate)if there were more in than usual, he said just me and the two Irish guys in the corner.He knew that would be the case but got premier sports in so he could watch the game himself.

I live in a hugely unionist area and was in a hugely Rangers pub on  Saturday and it was packed. Infact I was at the table next to Ally McCoist. Not sure what your point is. 

Edited by TDYER63
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10 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

He might of done, we'll never know. Generally speaking, would the 'independence generation' of kids born in an indy Scotland have more self-belief? It's not unreasonable to think so.

One thing i'm sure of - i don't think it's a co-incidence that someone as mentally strong and full of self-belief as him, turned out to be a Yesser in 2014.

 

Was reading a good article today about this whole subject. It's not really related to politics, but interesting nonetheless.

"

Divided We Fall

With his usual clarity, the Indian mystic, Osho, identified the heart of the problem:

‘And the most important thing is, if you are seeking success, you are already divided. Then your heart is not in the work, your heart is already in the result. If you are divided, you will not succeed. Success happens only to undivided hearts who are not worried about the consequence, the result, who are enjoying tremendously the journey itself, and are not concerned about the goal…

‘If you are concerned about success, success is not going to come to you, because your mind will be somewhere in the future and you will not be working in the present. And success can only come if the work is totally done in the present.’

Returning home from the pub, or grappling with a suitcase as the taxi awaits, our minds are indeed ‘somewhere in the future’.

When Ben Stokes was smashing the ball with abandon against Australia, he was doing so with an undivided heart. Success was so far-distant that thoughts of the future did not affect his ability to be focused on his work in the present, on the ball spinning towards him in the moment. When victory was out of sight, there was no question of him thinking, ‘I don’t know what to do’, because his mind wasn’t involved; there was no point. He was in his feelings, not in his head. The closer he came to success, the more his mind felt the magnetic pull of a looming, glorious triumph; the more it started to intrude.

Up to that point, thanks to thousands of hours of physical practice, physical learning, Stokes’ body had known exactly what to do. Alarmed by the prospect of ultimate glory, his mind took charge of the bat and failed. Rather than his body responding to the potential of every moment, his mind tried to impose its pre-determined idea on reality – ‘Now I have to be cautious with whatever comes’, or, ‘Now I have to smash whatever comes’ – in a way that was not in accord with the truth of the moment. In fact, Stokes’ mind didn’t need to do anything; it needed to get out of the way and allow his heart to be centred, undivided in feeling; to respond instinctively to every ball in the moment. After all, that was how he’d got to the brink of success in the first place.

Eight-time major tennis champion, Andre Agassi, wrote a very telling comment in his autobiography, ‘Open’. Agassi explained how, in the 1999 final of the French Open tournament, his opponent, Andrei Medvedev, won the first two sets with ease and came within five points of winning the match and championship in straight sets. But after this opportunity slipped through Medvedev’s fingers, everything changed. Agassi wrote:

‘Now we play on my terms. I move Medvedev side to side, hit the ball big, do everything [coach] Brad [Gilbert] said to do. Medvedev is a step slower, notably distracted. He’s had too long to think about winning. He was five points away, five points, and it’s haunting him. He’s going over and over it in his mind. He’s telling himself, I was so close. I was there. The finish line! He’s living in the past, and I’m in the present. He’s thinking, I’m feeling. Don’t think, Andre. Hit harder.’ (Andre Agassi, ‘Open’, Alfred A. Knopf, 2009, p.302, my emphasis)

When our mind ‘is already in the result’, we are split between our heads and our feelings – like Medvedev, we are hardly in the present at all – so our energies are divided, weak, faltering.

Because Nadal, Federer and Djokovic were better tennis players and he was unlucky with injuries at a time when he might have been able to win more but yeah who knows for sure, he never struck me as someone held back by Scotland being in the Union. 

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1 minute ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Because Nadal, Federer and Djokovic were better tennis players and he was unlucky with injuries at a time when he might have been able to win more but yeah who knows for sure, he never struck me as someone held back by Scotland being in the Union. 

All true. Btw, i wouldn't describe any team/player has been 'held back' as such. That's putting it too strongly.

I have always believed though that - as a nation - we do suffer from a lack of mental strength / belief compared to our peers. I could never prove it, but it's not unreasonable to think the political situation has a negative effect on that.

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26 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I live in a hugely unionist area and was in a hugely Rangers pub on  Saturday and it was packed. Infact I was at the table next to Ally McCoist. Not sure what your point is. 

We had more pride in being Scottish when we're unionist as you appear to have just pointed out. 

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2 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

We had more pride in being Scottish when we're unionist as you appear to have just pointed out. 

😂 What a bizarre interpretation. 

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5 hours ago, Ak91 said:

Well Independence has nothing to do with it as when part of Yugoslavia they reached 2 finals of the Euro's and finished 4th at a world cup so not as if there has been an upturn since being independent. 

I'd also discount strength of league as the Scottish league on paper is stronger but I would imagine there are more opportunities for young Croatians. 

I do believe culture and weather is a major factor. The weather in this country is horrific between October and March and it does not suit a style of play appropriate for the modern game. 

The great climate must be a factor. There was a feature on Croatia done by Radio Scotland after they beat us last year. They interviewed a Scottish teacher working in Zagreb who said you do see more kids playing outside in the sunshine, but tellingly that people from that part of the world seem to have a natural competence at ball sports.

That's a good point about the strength of Yugoslavia as well. I always hark back to the team that hammered us in the 1990 under 21 Euro qualifiers.

What a team from a single age group: Prosinecki, Suker, Boksic, Mihajlovic, Mijatovic, Boban, Jarni (and errr Lekovic and Petric 😄) If Yugoslavia hadn't broken up that squad could've been all conquering in the 90s.

https://www.11v11.com/matches/yugoslavia-v-scotland-05-september-1989-258186/#google_vignette

 

 

 

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Did we not bear Yugoslavia 5-1,or6-1 at Hampden on a wet Wednesday in the early 80's.

 

Something is stirring the memory in my head .

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