The news thread

[Dave78]

12 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Almost to the day of the Hamas attacks I read this from a book about sin (of all things). It's lengthy and no one is compelled to read it, so don't moan!

'For years in the late eighties and early nineties, Israeli soldiers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip terrorized Palestinian civilians, bulldozed their houses, and imprisoned their occupants, including children, and did a lot of it without due legal process. All along, they tried to block the access of journalists to the truth pof these matters. Soldiers also fired teargas canisters at Palestinian teenagers—gas manufactured in the United States but rejected by U.S. domestic police because it was too toxic. “How easily,” remarks one observer, “the Israelis throw gas canisters at people.” During these years, violent Israelis would claim that they were answering Palestinian terrorists, and their claim was entirely plausible. On the other side, Palestinians who knifed Israeli civilians or shot up Israeli tourist buses would claim that they were answering the state terrorism of Israel. And, to distressed outsiders, their claim sounded entirely plausible too—though, of course, neither claim justified what had been done. In a striking commentary on the echoing and re-echoing of sin in history, James Burtchaell remarks on the phenomenon of breaking the peace. Despite centuries of war, no one has ever done it, he notes: nobody has ever fired a first shot. All strikes are claimed to be counterstrikes. All shots are return fire. “For the Allies, World War II began at the Polish border in 1939; for the Germans, hostilities dated back to Versailles. Your military operation is an attack; mine is a retaliation.” Consider the way most of us look at terrorism. Most citizens of powerful nations think of terrorists as irrational persons. On this view, terrorists possess some wild and nameless malice that turns them into enemies of the peace that has been established by decent people. And, indeed, a few groups do seem to be fueled by what Burtchaell calls “nihilist rage.” But such groups are rare. Terrorists nearly always think of their violence as retaliatory. True, the violence against which terrorists rage may be systemic rather than freelance like their own, but, as Solzhenitsyn knew, no matter how state violence is masked, euphemized, and defended, it may still be as grievous and unjust as any conventional war of aggression—or as any instance of terrorism. And terrorists do typically think of themselves as respondents to a history of state violence. Accordingly, “no one will ever comprehend or cope with [terrorism] without reconstructing the sense of the past that terrorists harbor.” But who has the qualities of vision, fairness, and world-class responsibility to do some of this reconstruction? Which heads of state possess the maturity to reject the narrow self-interest that typically defeats any attempt to understand the motives of one’s adversaries? As it is, powerful nations bomb to their deaths citizens of smaller and less powerful nations without bothering to understand the history of these citizens or their desperation and without trying very hard to understand their grievances in terms of this history. What we need in order to cut the loops of state violence and terrorist reprisal, says Burtchaell, is the kind of “great, patient statecraft” that relies less on sheer might than on a persistent determination to “inquire into the causes of grievances, think about them, and strive to allay them.”

Depressingly it was written some thirty years ago and is still as relevant today.

Jeremy Corbyn would have been one. And of course that's why (like Yitzak Rabin) he had to go.

[Ally Bongo]

 

[Rich NATA]

7 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

 

One of my former colleagues said the same.

I offered to walk through the city centre with him that lunchtime. "Let's count them" I said.

He declined.

 

That colleague of mine was full of sh*t and so is Tom Hunt. 

[Hertsscot]

8 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

 

So many euphemisms for sweaty words, 'You're a real Jeremy Hunt', can now be supplemented with 'He's a complete Tom Hunt'.

[vanderark14]

Israel getting ready for the ground invasion now to apparently get the hostages. If anything they will be risking those hostages lives as I doubt they will be alive for long of the IDF get close to them.

On a separate note I did it difficult to believe israel didn't anticipate this attack. A matter of days later they were 100% sure there was a terrorist compound beneath a hospital and mosque but they had no clue this attack was coming apart from the warning from Egypt of course 

[StirlingEgg]

2 hours ago, exile said:

Yes, I guess my earlier post was spurred by the thought: what if you are trying to be neutral here? But it is difficult to make 'neutral' statements when a statement that is acceptable applied to one side is not acceptable applied to the other side.

And yes, they are tying themselves in knots trying to say maybe there should be a 'pause' or a 'lull', anything but a 'ceasefire' which seems to be unacceptable to the western powers-that-be.

Och I suppose it's easy sitting here all safe and trying to be neutral and/or an idealist. It's just that sense of doom when it seems that even passing a neutral comment, historical observation or asking a question is seen at best as supporting one side or at worst as hostile. It's alarming that this is how world events play out and lives lost are just reeled off as a daily statistic.

Steve Earle (often a good reference point 🙂) got into bother for his song examining why an American guy would join the Taliban. It was viewed as support rather than just a healthy curiosity. Similarly with the UN Secretary General's recent comments, Steve Earle referred to his subject not arriving at his stance "in a vacuum". I should really just stick to the music thread! 

[ThistleWhistle]

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/family-of-al-jazeera-gaza-bureau-head-killed-in-israeli-air-raid

His kids recently posted this:

 

 

 

 

[Hertsscot]

1 hour ago, StirlingEgg said:

Och I suppose it's easy sitting here all safe and trying to be neutral and/or an idealist. It's just that sense of doom when it seems that even passing a neutral comment, historical observation or asking a question is seen at best as supporting one side or at worst as hostile. It's alarming that this is how world events play out and lives lost are just reeled off as a daily statistic.

Steve Earle (often a good reference point 🙂) got into bother for his song examining why an American guy would join the Taliban. It was viewed as support rather than just a healthy curiosity. Similarly with the UN Secretary General's recent comments, Steve Earle referred to his subject not arriving at his stance "in a vacuum". I should really just stick to the music thread! 

I was lucky enough to see Steve Earle at the Queens Hall recently. Quite why an artist of his calibre is not playing a bigger venue is beyond me but he played 'Jerusalem' towards the end of his set. He made a comment that preceded it about how peace in the Middle East seemed to many people to be impossible but that he knew miracles could happen because he was a recovering drug addict and hadn't touched heroin for however many years. That miracle just seems further away than ever. It really is so desperately sad.

[StirlingEgg]

7 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I was lucky enough to see Steve Earle at the Queens Hall recently. Quite why an artist of his calibre is not playing a bigger venue is beyond me but he played 'Jerusalem' towards the end of his set. He made a comment that preceded it about how peace in the Middle East seemed to many people to be impossible but that he knew miracles could happen because he was a recovering drug addict and hadn't touched heroin for however many years. That miracle just seems further away than ever. It really is so desperately sad.

I've not seen him for ages 😕think the last one might have been at Kelvingrove Bandstand though I'm not that sure...I like it when he talks between songs. He's always interesting. He did get heckled a bit at the Barras one time for a bit of commentary on Bush/Iraq if I remember right. It's not like you don't get a decent gig though or it kills the atmosphere. Sorry for taking this off piste a bit! 

 

 

[Big Ramy 1314]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/864601332045405?mibextid=9drbnH

[Ally Bongo]

5 minutes ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

https://www.facebook.com/reel/864601332045405?mibextid=9drbnH

I know that guy from other controversial interviews he has given on the holocaust and i can't remember his name

[Big Ramy 1314]

9 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

I know that guy from other controversial interviews he has given on the holocaust and i can't remember his name

Interesting the way he started, fair play to him....

[Ally Bongo]

9 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

I know that guy from other controversial interviews he has given on the holocaust and i can't remember his name

Norman Finkelstein

 

[Big Ramy 1314]

Just now, Ally Bongo said:

Norman Finkelstein

 

Aye, that's him mate...

[Orraloon]

Here we go. Whilst the Russians are preoccupied in Ukraine, this is the chance for the Yanks to take over the rest of the middle east. Will the Chinese sit back and watch it happen??????

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-27/us-launches-attack-on-iranian-targets-in-syria-as-fears-of-regional-war-grow

[Alibi]

Regarding Al Jazeera, I watched their English language news coverage of the Israel/Palestine situation a few weeks ago while in Spain.  I was impressed with how objective and even handed they were, with reports from both Israel & Gaza, and commentators from all sides of the debate.  It was as close to unbiased news coverage on this particular story as anything I've ever seen.  Contrast that with the cheerleading of SKY, the US channels and the BBC, all of which could have been propaganda outlets for their respective governments.  I can see why the Israelis decided to ban them because fair coverage is not what they want to see.  I've also been impressed in the past with Al Jazeera's coverage of Scottish political matters - again they do not blindly portray the UK government as in the right and the indy movement as a bunch of malcontents, which is the BBC's default position and also that of Sky.

[aaid]

Tory MP Crispin Blunt has been arrested on suspicion of rape and possession of controlled substances.  He’s been released pending further investigations.

Funnily enough I’m not seeing wall to wall tv coverage or a tent in anyone’s front garden. 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67233090

[Big Ramy 1314]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/326225633388362?mibextid=9drbnH

A good watch...

[Big Ramy 1314]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/814174507058975?mibextid=9drbnH

[Big Ramy 1314]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/301968756053330?mibextid=9drbnH

This is a tough one to watch... bastards....🤬

[vanderark14]

Maybe it's because I've never paid enough attention but this israel v hamas war seems to have divided people on a humongous scale worldwide. 

Personally I can't see what israel expect, if you lock people in like animals and take their land from them over 7 decades, don't get all shocked when those people act like animals

[Big Ramy 1314]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/352655230543017?mibextid=mHFdjq

👍

[dan cake]

6 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

Maybe it's because I've never paid enough attention but this israel v hamas war seems to have divided people on a humongous scale worldwide. 

Personally I can't see what israel expect, if you lock people in like animals and take their land from them over 7 decades, don't get all shocked when those people act like animals

The Palestinians are brown and poor so their lives are worth less than the richer white people seems to be the vibe I’m getting 🤷‍♂️

[Kirk]

Israel having their own wee Holocaust and the world watches on. Fucking mental. 

[Hertsscot]

More from my book about sin. Long read but I think it's relevant albeit talking about events from 40 years ago.

Victims victimize others, who then send their own vengeance ricocheting through the larger human family. Nobody is more dangerous than a victim. In an absorbing account of his years in the Middle East, Thomas Friedman pauses at one point to reflect on the character of Menachem Begin, prime minister of Israel from 1977 to 1983. Here was a man who had grown up in the middle of Polish and then German anti-Semitism, a man who from his youth knew what it was to be despised, marginalized, and targeted for spit. He longed so much for vengeance, says Friedman, that first the idea, and then the reality, of Jewish tanks, jets, and bombs became “his pornography,” the cure for Jewish impotence. Begin saw Yasir Arafat as another in the long line of Israel’s enemies and declared that the siege of Arafat’s forces was the moral equivalent of going after “Hitler in his bunker.” What made Begin dangerous, says Friedman, is that even after years of military successes he never ceased thinking of himself as a victim. What makes victims dangerous is that they are unlikely to exercise stern self-control. They feel entitled.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Hertsscot