22nd November - draw

[vanderark14]

4 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

France vs Ireland. Scotland vs Italy.

 

4 hours ago, irish said:

Don't fookin remind me 😪

10 years ago today. Le Cheat the coont!😡 

Didn't uefa change the draw to a seeded draw after the groups once they realised France and Portugal may not make it to the finals?

[The_Dark_Knight]

Talking of Ireland...

Tonight they have a back four, all of whom are now established EPL players: Docherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens.

I hope that we had such riches, soon.

[JECK]

3 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

Talking of Ireland...

Tonight they have a back four, all of whom are now established EPL players: Docherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens.

I hope that we had such riches, soon.

Denmark slowly taking a grip on things. 

[weekevie04]

59 minutes ago, JECK said:

Denmark slowly taking a grip on things. 

Ireland back in control now. Denmark sitting in for the point, and Ireland need the win to qualify automatically.

I've not seen enough of him, but Stevens looks a very good solid right back.

I've got an American co-commentator who is pretty good, no idea who he is, but a good pundit.

Edited November 18, 2019 by weekevie04

[weekevie04]

"Do you think so, Kasey?"

Must be Kasey Keller!

[The_Dark_Knight]

1 hour ago, JECK said:

Denmark slowly taking a grip on things. 

0:1 Denmark!

[weekevie04]

Apologies to Newyrep for jinxing youse.

[dohadeer]

6 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Two examples of ref's that were paid to make sure the big team went through.

You don't seriously believe that?!

Surely you're better than that.

'Big' teams do fail to qualify from time to time. If UEFA wanted the big teams to qualify that much, then they could just make the qualification process much easier for them.

 

You can't seriously think that the referee was corrupt, because a late decision went against your team, on the one recent occasion when they were closest to qualifying? I was absolutely devastated that night, but there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest corruption or foul play. Quite the opposite in fact, in terms of key decisions in that match going in our favour, rather than against us.

 

Surely we're better than resorting to slanderous claims like that when we lose?! Those type of conspiracy theories are best left to our neighbours from over the border. I'm embarrassed to hear a Scotland fan come out with such nonsense.

[Squirrelhumper]

12 hours ago, dohadeer said:

You don't seriously believe that?!

Surely you're better than that.

'Big' teams do fail to qualify from time to time. If UEFA wanted the big teams to qualify that much, then they could just make the qualification process much easier for them.

 

You can't seriously think that the referee was corrupt, because a late decision went against your team, on the one recent occasion when they were closest to qualifying? I was absolutely devastated that night, but there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest corruption or foul play. Quite the opposite in fact, in terms of key decisions in that match going in our favour, rather than against us.

 

Surely we're better than resorting to slanderous claims like that when we lose?! Those type of conspiracy theories are best left to our neighbours from over the border. I'm embarrassed to hear a Scotland fan come out with such nonsense.

The play offs are seeded, that's one way of making sure big countries don't play each other in the play offs if they have a bad campaign.

Are you seriously saying the France-Ireland game wasn't a stitch up?

I honestly couldn't give a fuck if you're embarrassed. You probably happily sung doh a dear when we're getting actually embarrassed  3-0 off Kazakstan away!

[ceudmilefailte]

12 hours ago, dohadeer said:

 

'Big' teams do fail to qualify from time to time. If UEFA wanted the big teams to qualify that much, then they could just make the qualification process much easier for them.

 

 

To a degree they have with the Nations League.

Had any of the top teams failed to qualify they would have the playoffs to fall back no matter were they finished in the nations league as long as they started high enough in the league in the first place.  If they didn't start high enough they can't be called a big team.

It will be interesting to see how or if they use the nations league for world cup qualification. I would imagine it would be the top teams in the overall league that didn't qualify rather than the way it worked this time.

It might not be good for us but it will ensure that that more of the best teams qualify.

 

[dohadeer]

7 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

The play offs are seeded, that's one way of making sure big countries don't play each other in the play offs if they have a bad campaign.

Are you seriously saying the France-Ireland game wasn't a stitch up?

I honestly couldn't give a fuck if you're embarrassed. You probably happily sung doh a dear when we're getting actually embarrassed  3-0 off Kazakstan away!

I don’t really know/remember the details of the game you are referring to.

If it comes down to whether I believe:

A. The referee/officials were part of some conspiracy theory to ensure France (?!) qualified for one specific tournament.

B. The referee/officials were not in a position to spot a handball.

Then yeah, I don’t think it was a ‘stitch-up.’

Again, as frustrating as it is to have a key decision which leads to a goal going against your team, so late in a qualifying campaign which is still alive, especially for teams who don’t regularly qualify, you can’t then just make the leap to corruption, rather than genuine mistake, unless you have evidence to back that up. That’s a paranoid thought pattern right there.

Big teams fail to qualify all the time. Your story doesn’t stack up. You’re just hand-picking two scenarios you happened to spot because they happened very late in games which were covered in this country.

[irish]

The Ireland-France pairing was a stitch up as UEFA changed the rules to seeded one a month before the draw as teams like France, Portugal and Germany (I think) were looking likely to finish second in their respective groups. UEFA obviously wanted the bigger teams with the huge tv viewership to qualify for the tournament. 

We did benefit from this seeded system a couple of years later when we got Estonia in the playoffs for EURO 2012. 

[dohadeer]

22 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

To a degree they have with the Nations League.

Had any of the top teams failed to qualify they would have the playoffs to fall back no matter were they finished in the nations league as long as they started high enough in the league in the first place.  If they didn't start high enough they can't be called a big team.

It will be interesting to see how or if they use the nations league for world cup qualification. I would imagine it would be the top teams in the overall league that didn't qualify rather than the way it worked this time.

It might not be good for us but it will ensure that that more of the best teams qualify.

 

That's the way it should be though, surely?

When the European Championships Finals take place, they should be between the top 24 teams in Europe. So, you have to have a reasonable seeding and qualification system in place to make sure that happens. For example, you wouldn't have a one-off, random draw, home/away knockout system, because then many of the top teams wouldn't be at the finals. That wouldn't make sense.

 

Also, if UEFA were really so desparate for all the 'big' teams to qualify, for financial reasons or whatever, then they'd just make it like the Champions League and award automatic qualification places to certain seeds. They wouldn't need to do it dishonestly by bribing match officials, and requiring them to have to make corrupt decisions which weren't spotted by the world's media, and make payments/communications with these officials which weren't spotted by the media either. That doesn't make any sense at all. You have to be a fairly paranoid conspiracy theorist to think that UEFA would choose that route, and be able to not get caught by the media!

The English media have such a bee in their bonnet about FIFA and UEFA, they'd have uncovered such a scam years ago, if such corruption was taking place.

[dohadeer]

2 minutes ago, irish said:

The Ireland-France pairing was a stitch up as UEFA changed the rules to seeded one a month before the draw as teams like France, Portugal and Germany (I think) were looking likely to finish second in their respective groups. UEFA obviously wanted the bigger teams with the huge tv viewership to qualify for the tournament. 

We did benefit from this seeded system a couple of years later when we got Estonia in the playoffs for EURO 2012. 

Oh, ok, if that's what you mean by 'stitch-up' then yeah, I don't agree with UEFA doing that, changing the rules after a competition has started, is not fair at all.

However, although it is frustrating if your country happened to be one of the few who were disadvantaged by that, equally, as a neutral football fan, it is important that all the top teams are at a major finals. UEFA should have foreseen that, and planned the seeded playoffs at the start of the qualifying process though.

That's totally different to any suggestions of bribing match officials though.

[ceudmilefailte]

6 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

That's the way it should be though, surely?

When the European Championships Finals take place, they should be between the top 24 teams in Europe. So, you have to have a reasonable seeding and qualification system in place to make sure that happens. For example, you wouldn't have a one-off, random draw, home/away knockout system, because then many of the top teams wouldn't be at the finals. That wouldn't make sense.

 

Also, if UEFA were really so desparate for all the 'big' teams to qualify, for financial reasons or whatever, then they'd just make it like the Champions League and award automatic qualification places to certain seeds. They wouldn't need to do it dishonestly by bribing match officials, and requiring them to have to make corrupt decisions which weren't spotted by the world's media, and make payments/communications with these officials which weren't spotted by the media either. That doesn't make any sense at all. You have to be a fairly paranoid conspiracy theorist to think that UEFA would choose that route, and be able to not get caught by the media!

The English media have such a bee in their bonnet about FIFA and UEFA, they'd have uncovered such a scam years ago, if such corruption was taking place.

I'm a 100% behind that as the concept, but it has been diluted this year with guaranteed  play off spots for some teams from all groups. 

One team from the bottom group will qualify which dilutes the quality of the finals. You could say that one team from our group qualifying does the same.

It should be up to us and every  one else to make our way up the league. 

Does lead to competitive football as by my reckoning staying in group B will be the only way to guarantee  the play off places in future years.

[irish]

4 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

Oh, ok, if that's what you mean by 'stitch-up' then yeah, I don't agree with UEFA doing that, changing the rules after a competition has started, is not fair at all.

However, although it is frustrating if your country happened to be one of the few who were disadvantaged by that, equally, as a neutral football fan, it is important that all the top teams are at a major finals. UEFA should have foreseen that, and planned the seeded playoffs at the start of the qualifying process though.

That's totally different to any suggestions of bribing match officials though.

I’d also say in fairness to that ref he was very good throughout the game and as far as I remember denied France a penalty claim that a hometown ref would probably give. Think it might’ve been Evra looking for it. He obviously missed Henry’s handball but what the fook was the linesman at?! He should have spotted it. The ref took all the blame.

That France team added nothing to the world cup and disgraced themselves with their mutiny towards their manager which made it even more sickening.  

Overall as bad as a decision as that was, I don’t think we’d have went through anyway. They would’ve beaten us on penalties as I think Robbie Keane was taken off and Duff had missed our big chance to get the second goal.

[aaid]

24 minutes ago, irish said:

The Ireland-France pairing was a stitch up as UEFA changed the rules to seeded one a month before the draw as teams like France, Portugal and Germany (I think) were looking likely to finish second in their respective groups. UEFA obviously wanted the bigger teams with the huge tv viewership to qualify for the tournament. 

We did benefit from this seeded system a couple of years later when we got Estonia in the playoffs for EURO 2012. 

Genuine question as I don't know the answer but did they *change* the format of the playoffs or did they just announce the format.

Qualification groups have been seeded for as long as I can remember and I don't see any complaints about that, don't see why the play-offs should be any different tbh

[dohadeer]

38 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

I'm a 100% behind that as the concept, but it has been diluted this year with guaranteed  play off spots for some teams from all groups. 

One team from the bottom group will qualify which dilutes the quality of the finals. You could say that one team from our group qualifying does the same.

It should be up to us and every  one else to make our way up the league. 

Does lead to competitive football as by my reckoning staying in group B will be the only way to guarantee  the play off places in future years.

Yeah, I don't understand the 'sympathy spots' for Leagues C and D at all. It should be the best 24 teams in Europe who qualify, I can't understand the benefits of having a League D team at the finals to make up numbers and potentially be on the end of a few thrashings.

(Or League C either, although those teams should be at a level to not be thrashed.)

[dohadeer]

36 minutes ago, irish said:

I’d also say in fairness to that ref he was very good throughout the game and as far as I remember denied France a penalty claim that a hometown ref would probably give. Think it might’ve been Evra looking for it. He obviously missed Henry’s handball but what the fook was the linesman at?! He should have spotted it. The ref took all the blame.

That France team added nothing to the world cup and disgraced themselves with their mutiny towards their manager which made it even more sickening.  

Overall as bad as a decision as that was, I don’t think we’d have went through anyway. They would’ve beaten us on penalties as I think Robbie Keane was taken off and Duff had missed our big chance to get the second goal.

Thanks for providing some sensible and unbiased insight! I thought that I was going mad, reading some of the conspiracy theories on here!

[todd]

6 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

Yeah, I don't understand the 'sympathy spots' for Leagues C and D at all. It should be the best 24 teams in Europe who qualify, I can't understand the benefits of having a League D team at the finals to make up numbers and potentially be on the end of a few thrashings.

(Or League C either, although those teams should be at a level to not be thrashed.)

The whole nations league concept is a safety net for any of the big nations slipping up.  But they couldn't do this without throwing the lesser nations a bone.

[irish]

33 minutes ago, aaid said:

Genuine question as I don't know the answer but did they *change* the format of the playoffs or did they just announce the format.

Qualification groups have been seeded for as long as I can remember and I don't see any complaints about that, don't see why the play-offs should be any different tbh

Do you know what, that's an excellent question.

I was under the impression it was an open draw and FIFA just changed it to a seeded one. They way they announced gives the impression that they just all-of-a-sudden decided it would be seeded.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/sep/29/world-cup-play-offs-seeded-sepp-blatter

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/fifa-to-seed-countries-for-play-off-draw-1.1229324

In any case it should have been clear that the draw was going to be seeded even before the qualifiers started the previous year.   

[dohadeer]

2 minutes ago, todd said:

The whole nations league concept is a safety net for any of the big nations slipping up.  But they couldn't do this without throwing the lesser nations a bone.

Yes they could. Just give play-offs to the teams starting from the League A downwards, rather than starting with four places for League D. I don't understand that and fail to see it as constructive.

I think that the Nations League as a whole is a wonderful idea for three reasons - far less meaningless friendlies; more competitive games against teams of a similar level; and genuine excitement rewards for League D teams who have perhaps spent years as the whipping boys of European qualification groups.

However, the playoff path system that is linked to the Nations League has been poorly constructed and will probably be changed in the very near future.

[ceudmilefailte]

13 minutes ago, dohadeer said:

.

(Or League C either, although those teams should be at a level to not be thrashed.)

In theory the best League C teams are on the upgrade and the worst League B teams are in decline so I think that is fair enough.

Not too sure how we fitted into all that mind you.

[todd]

1 hour ago, dohadeer said:

Yes they could. Just give play-offs to the teams starting from the League A downwards, rather than starting with four places for League D. I don't understand that and fail to see it as constructive.

I think that the Nations League as a whole is a wonderful idea for three reasons - far less meaningless friendlies; more competitive games against teams of a similar level; and genuine excitement rewards for League D teams who have perhaps spent years as the whipping boys of European qualification groups.

However, the playoff path system that is linked to the Nations League has been poorly constructed and will probably be changed in the very near future.

Hey you! Stop contradicting me 😂

[DaveyDenoon]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 1:53 PM, dohadeer said:

Do you have any evidence to back up that potentially-slanderous conspiracy theory?

I am thinking specifically about the campaign where we played the Netherlands in the playoffs.

The playoffs were meant to be an open draw, but UEFA then announced they were going to seed them.  Upon this announcement there was a lot of push back and cries of foul play (rightly so - if the draw was to be seed that should've been made clear form the outset, like it is nowadays) following which UEFA announced the draw would be open rather than seeded after all.

Cue the draw and miraculously (some may suggest almost mathematically impossibly, but certainly highly unlikely) the four teams which would have been seeded ended up playing the four teams which would not.

That kind of form is what I am referring to.