Scottish player transfers

[Diamond Scot]

1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

Most Countries our size don't produce lots of elite players anyways and never will. I am not expecting us to produce lots of elite players. What I want is a few more Frasers, Armstrongs and hickeys. We produce these level of guys in all positions who can cut it at epl level then we should stand a chance at going to more tournaments.

The way we produce these guys is by getting our best talent playing proper competitive football at a young age. Currently our best players have come from the route I am suggesting. The evidence overwhelmingly supports that route.

Most European countries our size do produce elite players.

Countries nearest to our population in order. Croatia, Ireland, Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Denmark, Bulgaria, Serbia, Switzerland.

Only Finland havent really had any elite players playing in the last 20 years. Possibly Bulgaria. Elite being somebody who plays reguarly for one of the top 4 or 5 teams in Engalnd, Spain, Italy or Germany.

Why do Ireland produce so many more elite players than Scotland? Thats probably the nearest we have to a country the size and culture of ours. Ireland ship pretty much all their players to England at the earliest opportunity and they have produced about 5 times the number of elite players than we have in the last 30 years.

[Miike]

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

Most European countries our size do produce elite players.

Countries nearest to our population in order. Croatia, Ireland, Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Denmark, Bulgaria, Serbia, Switzerland.

Only Finland havent really had any elite players playing in the last 20 years. Possibly Bulgaria. Elite being somebody who plays reguarly for one of the top 4 or 5 teams in Engalnd, Spain, Italy or Germany.

Why do Ireland produce so many more elite players than Scotland? Thats probably the nearest we have to a country the size and culture of ours. Ireland ship pretty much all their players to England at the earliest opportunity and they have produced about 5 times the number of elite players than we have in the last 30 years.

I live here in Finland and it's very much an Ice hockey country, (they were world champions in 2022 and are the current Olympic Champions), also the weather isn't very conducive to playing football most of the year. Still, even they produced Jari Litmanen and Sami Hyypiä in fairly recent memory.

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

Most European countries our size do produce elite players.

Countries nearest to our population in order. Croatia, Ireland, Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Denmark, Bulgaria, Serbia, Switzerland.

Only Finland havent really had any elite players playing in the last 20 years. Possibly Bulgaria. Elite being somebody who plays reguarly for one of the top 4 or 5 teams in Engalnd, Spain, Italy or Germany.

Why do Ireland produce so many more elite players than Scotland? Thats probably the nearest we have to a country the size and culture of ours. Ireland ship pretty much all their players to England at the earliest opportunity and they have produced about 5 times the number of elite players than we have in the last 30 years.

I said LOTS of elite players. Theres only three countries in the world similar in size to us who regularly produce lots of elite level players. Those three countries are Croatia, Denmark and Uruguay.

Ireland produces lots of elite players? Are you having a laugh. 

I can only name 5 or 6 in the last 30 years. That being McGrath, Irwin, Keane X2, duff and Given. Maybe theres one or two others but that's about it. Luckily they had ten year spell where most of those guys were together in the same team but if you average it out it's hardly alot.

I would say that we have had 4 or 5 elite players in the last 30 years. Lambert,Collins, Robertson, mccallister, Tierney, maybe even mcginn. 

Very few countries our size produce lots of elite players going by your definition of elite. It's extremely hard to do and expecting Scotland to start doing it is highly unlikely. What we need is to start making sure we produce a full squad of guys who play in top European leagues. If we can do that then we should stand a good chance of always going to the euros and maybe getting to a world cup every so often.

[mccaughey85]

2 minutes ago, Miike said:

I live here in Finland and it's very much an Ice hockey country, (they were world champions in 2022 and are the current Olympic Champions), also the weather isn't very conducive to playing football most of the year. Still, even they produced Jari Litmanen and Sami Hyypiä in fairly recent memory.

2 in 30 years isn't exactly great. Even we have had more than that. 

[Miike]

2 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

2 in 30 years isn't exactly great. Even we have had more than that. 

(Wouldn't mind us producing a Jari Litmanen though). My point was that in other countries other sports are a lot more popular and kids play a lot of different sports, while in Scotland its football football football, so we really should be doing better. 

[Dave78]

5 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

 

Why do Ireland produce so many more elite players than Scotland? Thats probably the nearest we have to a country the size and culture of ours. Ireland ship pretty much all their players to England at the earliest opportunity and they have produced about 5 times the number of elite players than we have in the last 30 years.

 

3 hours ago, Miike said:

(Wouldn't mind us producing a Jari Litmanen though). My point was that in other countries other sports are a lot more popular and kids play a lot of different sports, while in Scotland its football football football, so we really should be doing better. 

I think the point Miike makes is important. It also applies to Ireland. I don't think it's a coincidence that Ireland tends to produce good goalies and defenders. The reason of this, i think, is because most of them grow up playing Gaelic football, where the ball spends a lot of time in the air, and the players have to be physical/robust.

These skills transfer.

In Croatia the kids play a whole range of different sports, and the skills transfer.

Edited January 14 by Dave78

[Dave78]

3 hours ago, Miike said:

while in Scotland its football football football, so we really should be doing better. 

I think the opposite is true. Our mono sporting culture harms us.

Edited January 14 by Dave78

[gonzohiggy]

We should definitely do better. I firmly believe that the players are there and I also think the performance schools are fantastic for player development.

Where I think we fall down in player development is:

1) the players at youth level are taught to play out from the back, possession based style with ball on ground generally. The best ones then get in and around first team level but the game they meet at that level is totally different and they are ill prepared. I’ve seen every club in the premiership this season in person and other than Celtic, the only team who passed the ball on the ground were Dundee. Every other team is filled with 6ft plus guys built like brick s**t house but who are limited football players. These players are often not Scottish. This tendency towards brawn before brain in my opinion prevents enough technical young players getting a chance but also even when they do they aren’t getting experience of playing football the right way at the top level. Going a step beyond, this is why our clubs have traditionally struggled in Europe - they can’t keep the ball and the kick and rush style doesn’t work against the slower European build up.

2)  the clubs don’t place enough emphasis on playing their young players. Many would rather bring in someone from England on loan than give one of their own a shot. I’ve seen it with Kilmarnock this season - brought Andy Dallas on loan from Barnsley when 18 y/o Bobby Wales was already there. The league or SFA even needs to mandate the use of homegrown players in match day squads more than currently. Forget the B team nonsense.

no doubt lots more issues than these but both frustrate the life out of me.

[Tartan blood]

37 minutes ago, gonzohiggy said:

We should definitely do better. I firmly believe that the players are there and I also think the performance schools are fantastic for player development.

Where I think we fall down in player development is:

1) the players at youth level are taught to play out from the back, possession based style with ball on ground generally. The best ones then get in and around first team level but the game they meet at that level is totally different and they are ill prepared. I’ve seen every club in the premiership this season in person and other than Celtic, the only team who passed the ball on the ground were Dundee. Every other team is filled with 6ft plus guys built like brick s**t house but who are limited football players. These players are often not Scottish. This tendency towards brawn before brain in my opinion prevents enough technical young players getting a chance but also even when they do they aren’t getting experience of playing football the right way at the top level. Going a step beyond, this is why our clubs have traditionally struggled in Europe - they can’t keep the ball and the kick and rush style doesn’t work against the slower European build up.

2)  the clubs don’t place enough emphasis on playing their young players. Many would rather bring in someone from England on loan than give one of their own a shot. I’ve seen it with Kilmarnock this season - brought Andy Dallas on loan from Barnsley when 18 y/o Bobby Wales was already there. The league or SFA even needs to mandate the use of homegrown players in match day squads more than currently. Forget the B team nonsense.

no doubt lots more issues than these but both frustrate the life out of me.

1. This could be a good justification for Gilmour leaving. He is as technical as they come, and he may have had to abandon this style to make it in Scotland. Same goes for Hickey. He was given the time and space to develop in a slower paced technical league, instead of having to toughen up in Scotland.

You could probably argue certain positions might benefit more than others. E.g Goalkeepers and CBs would maybe develop well in Scotland, where as wingers who get chopped down at every opportunity wouldn't. Ryan Fraser, for example, made the correct choice to leave Scotland in his teens.

[Diamond Scot]

54 minutes ago, gonzohiggy said:

We should definitely do better. I firmly believe that the players are there and I also think the performance schools are fantastic for player development.

Where I think we fall down in player development is:

1) the players at youth level are taught to play out from the back, possession based style with ball on ground generally. The best ones then get in and around first team level but the game they meet at that level is totally different and they are ill prepared. I’ve seen every club in the premiership this season in person and other than Celtic, the only team who passed the ball on the ground were Dundee. Every other team is filled with 6ft plus guys built like brick s**t house but who are limited football players. These players are often not Scottish. This tendency towards brawn before brain in my opinion prevents enough technical young players getting a chance but also even when they do they aren’t getting experience of playing football the right way at the top level. Going a step beyond, this is why our clubs have traditionally struggled in Europe - they can’t keep the ball and the kick and rush style doesn’t work against the slower European build up.

2)  the clubs don’t place enough emphasis on playing their young players. Many would rather bring in someone from England on loan than give one of their own a shot. I’ve seen it with Kilmarnock this season - brought Andy Dallas on loan from Barnsley when 18 y/o Bobby Wales was already there. The league or SFA even needs to mandate the use of homegrown players in match day squads more than currently. Forget the B team nonsense.

no doubt lots more issues than these but both frustrate the life out of me.

Totally agree however one thing thats often overlooked for the cause if this is when we play.

In Scotland there is a very small window when both the pitches and weather are good. Most of the season is spent playing in the wind / rain or when the pitches have suffered from the cold or getting churned up. None of that is ideal for passing the ball around.

I believe one of the many benefits of summer football would be a better style of football being adopted by managers. Managers are paid to win and currently the best chances of that are by getting the ball up the pitch asap. 

[bdgsct]

38 minutes ago, gonzohiggy said:

We should definitely do better. I firmly believe that the players are there and I also think the performance schools are fantastic for player development.

Where I think we fall down in player development is:

1) the players at youth level are taught to play out from the back, possession based style with ball on ground generally. The best ones then get in and around first team level but the game they meet at that level is totally different and they are ill prepared. I’ve seen every club in the premiership this season in person and other than Celtic, the only team who passed the ball on the ground were Dundee. Every other team is filled with 6ft plus guys built like brick s**t house but who are limited football players. These players are often not Scottish. This tendency towards brawn before brain in my opinion prevents enough technical young players getting a chance but also even when they do they aren’t getting experience of playing football the right way at the top level. Going a step beyond, this is why our clubs have traditionally struggled in Europe - they can’t keep the ball and the kick and rush style doesn’t work against the slower European build up.

2)  the clubs don’t place enough emphasis on playing their young players. Many would rather bring in someone from England on loan than give one of their own a shot. I’ve seen it with Kilmarnock this season - brought Andy Dallas on loan from Barnsley when 18 y/o Bobby Wales was already there. The league or SFA even needs to mandate the use of homegrown players in match day squads more than currently. Forget the B team nonsense.

no doubt lots more issues than these but both frustrate the life out of me.

This 100%. There is zero medium to long term vision for clubs in Scotland. Owners need to buy in to a long term plan to play passing football and get the fans onboard then appoint a series of managers with the same mandate. Clubs seem to jump from one management style to another when results turn which is crazy.

The style of football played in Scotland isn't developing players of any nationality with the few that do get bought usually failing to cut it at the higher level and returning. There are the odd exceptions but they tend to be the technically sound players which would have probably benefitted from leaving even sooner, Christie, Armstrong, Ferguson etc. People get blinded by the current relative success of the national team but this will no doubt lead to a lack of depth in 5/6 years time.

[gonzohiggy]

2 hours ago, bdgsct said:

This 100%. There is zero medium to long term vision for clubs in Scotland. Owners need to buy in to a long term plan to play passing football and get the fans onboard then appoint a series of managers with the same mandate. Clubs seem to jump from one management style to another when results turn which is crazy.

The style of football played in Scotland isn't developing players of any nationality with the few that do get bought usually failing to cut it at the higher level and returning. There are the odd exceptions but they tend to be the technically sound players which would have probably benefitted from leaving even sooner, Christie, Armstrong, Ferguson etc. People get blinded by the current relative success of the national team but this will no doubt lead to a lack of depth in 5/6 years time.

Totally agree. There’s no coach in our top league other than Ange / Rogers who adopts a more modern, possession based style of play. There are clubs in the lower leagues Airdrie and Queens Park but none in the premiership. English clubs aren’t great at it either but you look at what De Zerbi has done at Brighton (ignoring their incredible recruitment) and it’s blown people away in general and gets them results. 
 

Also agree re the national team we are good just now but if we don’t address the premiership and issues I’ve noted we’ll be back to being crap again in no time. 

[gonzohiggy]

2 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Totally agree however one thing thats often overlooked for the cause if this is when we play.

In Scotland there is a very small window when both the pitches and weather are good. Most of the season is spent playing in the wind / rain or when the pitches have suffered from the cold or getting churned up. None of that is ideal for passing the ball around.

I believe one of the many benefits of summer football would be a better style of football being adopted by managers. Managers are paid to win and currently the best chances of that are by getting the ball up the pitch asap. 

Pitches can be an issue but I think that’s too easy an out for clubs. If clubs chose to invest in a forward thinking manager, they would need to invest in a pitch aligned with that. Motherwell, hibs, rangers are playing on bowling greens even in January.

 

[Diamond Scot]

5 minutes ago, gonzohiggy said:

Pitches can be an issue but I think that’s too easy an out for clubs. If clubs chose to invest in a forward thinking manager, they would need to invest in a pitch aligned with that. Motherwell, hibs, rangers are playing on bowling greens even in January.

 

Im not saying its the only reason but it is a factor.

Even with a good pitch, its alot harder to play patient passing build up football when the wind is howling, the rain is falling and its close to freezing.

I dont like it but I can see why managers in Scotland opt for physical over technical. 

Summer football negates some of the positives of a physical style and makes a technical style more beneficial. 

[gonzohiggy]

29 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Im not saying its the only reason but it is a factor.

Even with a good pitch, its alot harder to play patient passing build up football when the wind is howling, the rain is falling and its close to freezing.

I dont like it but I can see why managers in Scotland opt for physical over technical. 

Summer football negates some of the positives of a physical style and makes a technical style more beneficial. 

Don’t disagree it’s been a factor just feel like more could be done so that it’s not. 
 

I think it’s more about not having enough of the technical types available within budget. England is just next door so there’s an endless supply of big strong types but technical players are in far shorter supply. Integration of youths would greatly assist this because you can produce your own.

[Caledonian Craig]

A heck of a lot is also to do with facilities and quality and quantity of coaches. The billions of pounds flowing into the English game through massive TV deals helps massively to fund the facilities and ensure the very best coaches. Scotland are massively lacking in the financial stakes.

[dan cake]

Arsenal and Leeds now being linked with Doig

[Silversand]

51 minutes ago, dan cake said:

Arsenal and Leeds now being linked with Doig

Hopefully he stays well away from Arsenal.

[ProudScot]

3 hours ago, Silversand said:

Hopefully he stays well away from Arsenal.

Why?

[Silversand]

8 hours ago, ProudScot said:

Why?

I think he'll get limited game time there, look at Tierney. 

Better going somewhere where he'll be first choice.

[Squirrelhumper]

20 hours ago, ProudScot said:

Why?

As their manager is a cock.

Good enough reason. 

Plus he isn't a regular starter at Verona never mind Arsenal. 

[GroundsKeeper]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:17 AM, gonzohiggy said:

We should definitely do better. I firmly believe that the players are there and I also think the performance schools are fantastic for player development.

Where I think we fall down in player development is:

1) the players at youth level are taught to play out from the back, possession based style with ball on ground generally. The best ones then get in and around first team level but the game they meet at that level is totally different and they are ill prepared. I’ve seen every club in the premiership this season in person and other than Celtic, the only team who passed the ball on the ground were Dundee. Every other team is filled with 6ft plus guys built like brick s**t house but who are limited football players. These players are often not Scottish. This tendency towards brawn before brain in my opinion prevents enough technical young players getting a chance but also even when they do they aren’t getting experience of playing football the right way at the top level. Going a step beyond, this is why our clubs have traditionally struggled in Europe - they can’t keep the ball and the kick and rush style doesn’t work against the slower European build up.

2)  the clubs don’t place enough emphasis on playing their young players. Many would rather bring in someone from England on loan than give one of their own a shot. I’ve seen it with Kilmarnock this season - brought Andy Dallas on loan from Barnsley when 18 y/o Bobby Wales was already there. The league or SFA even needs to mandate the use of homegrown players in match day squads more than currently. Forget the B team nonsense.

no doubt lots more issues than these but both frustrate the life out of me.

Good post, why don't teams give Scottish youth a chance. 

Only 25% of that starting 11 in our top division were scottish. Poll was taken after league was won.

Far too many average foreIngers especially at the old firm. Callum McCgregor at Celtic is the only regular starter. Rangers no one. 

WTF They have lost their Scottish identity

[Squirrelhumper]

2 minutes ago, GroundsKeeper said:

Good post, why don't teams give Scottish youth a chance. 

Only 25% of that starting 11 in our top division were scottish. Poll was taken after league was won.

Far too many average foreIngers especially at the old firm. Callum McCgregor at Celtic is the only regular starter. Rangers no one. 

WTF They have lost their Scottish identity

Greg Taylor starts every week for Celtic. 

[GroundsKeeper]

1 minute ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Greg Taylor starts every week for Celtic. 

Forgot about him. OK two players. Still shocking

[Squirrelhumper]

John Soutar is a regular for Rangers also. 

Ryan Jack has played around 16 games this season for Rangers. Turnbull 18 for Celtic, Forrest 18 for Celtic.