Council elections

[thplinth]

The way to independence is a tightrope of guess what? Being independent. Go too far right or go too far left on that tightrope and guess what happens. You don't get there. Back to the start... again.

[Caledonian Craig]

9 minutes ago, thplinth said:

The way to independence is a tightrope of guess what? Being independent. Go too far right or go too far left on that tightrope and guess what happens. You don't get there. Back to the start... again.

No I don't think that is the case. People should/will back independence regardless of their political stance (left, right or centre). Those that won't back independence under any circumstances are unionists.

[thplinth]

5 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

No I don't think that is the case. People should/will back independence regardless of their political stance (left, right or centre). Those that won't back independence under any circumstances are unionists.

Equally those that will back independence 'under any circumstances' are extremists. Listen to yourself... 

If Independence looks like Derek McHatton types running Scotland, it will quickly have ever diminishing votes. It will be very gradual at first and then very quick. The left is like a self destructive parasite always seeking a new plump host. They drained labour to the point it is a husk and now they are eyeing up the the big fat juicy SNP. No wonder folk are starting to vote tory. Even the smell of it around the SNP is enough to give you a mini boak. 

 

 

 

[Caledonian Craig]

And listen to Tories urging to vote for them to vote for the union - their own brand of nationalism and extremism. I swear Theresa May is Nigel Farage in a frock the way he/she is talking now. UKIP voters are loving that hence they jumped ship to vote Tory.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Caledonian Craig

[hampden_loon2878]

Has there been any data telease RE first preference vites in the council election? The only thing i can find is a diagram on Wikipedia,

[aaid]

20 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Has there been any data telease RE first preference vites in the council election? The only thing i can find is a diagram on Wikipedia,

You were quoting the Banff and Buchan numbers earlier today. 

[hampden_loon2878]

16 minutes ago, aaid said:

You were quoting the Banff and Buchan numbers earlier today. 

Yes because i know a few mrs whitefords team, by the looks of it the snp were second in moray, banff and buchan, gordon, fife and perth amoungst others, 

[sbcmfc]

22 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Yes because i know a few mrs whitefords team, by the looks of it the snp were second in moray, banff and buchan, gordon, fife and perth amoungst others, 

Can you measure that way though, in terms of what will happen in June?

As an example; in my area SNP were 1st, but labour took 2nd and 3rd, so Labour may hypothetically have gotten more votes, but spread across 2 candidates.

[Guest flumax]

 

Not seen much re breakdown other than below which I think is wrong. Don't know where they could have the numbers from. Looks more like seat share to me. 

[ErsatzThistle]

No doubt hampden_loon will soon be predicting twenty Labour gains in the central belt 

[Dave78]

2 hours ago, thplinth said:

The way to independence is a tightrope of guess what? Being independent. Go too far right or go too far left on that tightrope and guess what happens. You don't get there. Back to the start... again.

I completely agree that the SNP should be as centrist as possible. As should the Yes campaign in general. I remember thinking that it was too heavily dominated by Yessers like Tommy Sheridan, et al.

But my question to you is, what should the SNP do differently? You say they suck lefty boaby... can we get an example?

[Toepoke]

[Ally Bongo]

 

 

Ross Colquhoun‏Verified account @rosscolquhoun

75% of No voters (2014) didn't vote for Tories at #Council17. Quite the statistic considering their core campaign message.

[hampden_loon2878]

5 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

 

Ross Colquhoun‏Verified account @rosscolquhoun

75% of No voters (2014) didn't vote for Tories at #Council17. Quite the statistic considering their core campaign message.

25% of that 85% turn out is till a huge number for a council election a better way to look at it would be how many % of their council voters voted no

Edited May 7, 2017 by hampden_loon2878

[hampden_loon2878]

7 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

No doubt hampden_loon will soon be predicting twenty Labour gains in the central belt 

No not at all,labour are finished for a good while, maybe once corbin gets the chop along with dugdale maybe then,, i see the labour party trying to lure david milliband back, that may also help as he is the best the have. I maybe do over play on the decreased support for the snp but its more to do with trying to protect myself from disappointment(the referendum about killed me and i will never get over it) i wish i did not care so much about Scottish politics, but since the run up to the referendum it has become a major part of my past time,,Believe it or not i often get judged as being snp daft as i am do pro snp.

[ErsatzThistle]

Here's the full text of the Sunday Herald investigation that Toepoke posted earlier

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15270068.Orange_Order_elected_to_councils_as_Labour_and_Tory_members/?ref=mr&lp=2

Quote

 

MEMBERS of the Orange Order have won council seats in the local elections by standing for the Labour and Tory parties, the Sunday Herald can reveal. The Orange Order has boasted that its elected councillors will work to derail a second independence referendum, the organisation’s Scottish leader said.

Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland Grand Master Jim McHarg said the organisation now wanted to stir the Unionist population against independence.

A “huge number” of Lodge supporters are Tories, McHarg said, as he praised Ruth Davidson for basing her council election campaign on opposition to a second referendum.

However, McHarg said most of the Protestant Order’s members are Labour supporters as he revealed the organisation’s attempt to extend its political influence. He said the majority of Orange Lodge members who had successfully been elected as councillors were Labour, but added that at least one Tory had also been voted in.

McHarg said at least six of members had been elected as councillors, with dozens more sympathisers also returned in the local elections.

The Grand Master said the Orange Order now had more elected politicians in Scotland among its membership than at any time in nearly 20 years. He said the organisation had members on councils in North and East Ayrshire, as well as in South and North Lanarkshire.

Members of the Orange Order could now sit on council committees that will make decisions on local education policy, including the funding of Catholic schools.

Labour and the Conservatives may end up running some local authorities after they became the largest party in nine areas, including South Ayrshire and North Lanarkshire.

The Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland’s website describes state sponsored Catholic education as “a thorn in the flesh”. It also criticises legislation which “fully legitimised religious apartheid in Scottish schools by enriching the Catholic Church by paying the full price for its school buildings”.

McHarg refused to reveal the identities of those winning seats, but claimed the victories were a growing sign of pro-Union strength.

He said: “We’re delighted that our members are taking part in community life and I’m personally very proud that they are working for the community in this way. It can do no harm to the Unionist people.”

McHarg said the lodge had yet to find out the exact numbers of its members who had been elected and in which areas they had won. However, he added that Glasgow and the east of Scotland were likely be other places where the lodge had new councillors.

McHarg said: “We are still collating the numbers of members elected, but we believe six members of the institution have been elected to councils and that various other friends have too.”

He added that there were “probably” dozens of other newly elected councillors who were sympathetic to the Lodge and that this was an increase on those in place after the 2012 local elections.

McHarg confirmed those standing had not explicitly stated in their election literature that they were Lodge members. However, he claimed they had not sought to hide their membership from the public.

He said: “They wouldn’t have hidden it from people. Everybody in the community would know who they are.”

McHarg said the Orange Order had intervened in politics to prevent a second independence referendum being held. He added that the organisation had shunned politics for decades, but that the rise of the independence movement had led to Orangemen deciding to get involved again.

He said: “A lot of people were fed up with politics. We felt like a lot of people weren’t being listened to.”

McHarg added that the number of lodge members elected as councillors was now at its highest rate “certainly since 2000” just a year after the start of devolution.

McHarg said that he had voted for two Labour candidates and one Tory in the North Ayrshire council area, including one who attends the same church as him, adding that he had yet to decide which Unionist party to back in the General Election.

The Lodge leader also went out of his way to praise Ruth Davidson for her role in the campaign against independence, saying: “It’s probably helpful that the Tory Party has gone down that line. Ruth Davidson comes across well.”

Speaking about the political leanings of Lodge members, McHarg added: “Our members are very diverse. There are a huge number of Tories, but the majority are Labour.”

He said the lodge would now be suggesting that its members back Unionist parties in the General Election on June 8. “We’ll never tell people how to vote, but I’d guide people to support Unionist candidates,” he added.

McHarg also said the Lodge could stage another mass parade against independence like that held in Edinburgh days before the referendum on September 18 in 2014.

He said: “At the moment we’ve no desire to, but if we think there’s a need to stir the Unionist people we’d consider it.” McHarg said the Lodge may even consider encouraging Orangemen to seek election to Holyrood.

However, the Lodge’s intervention sparked concerns from SNP and Green members. Scottish Green leader Patrick Harvie said: “Most people will view the Orange Lodge as an unpleasant organisation with a sectarian past. Any party that knowingly selected members of it would have some very difficult questions to answer.”

Scottish Greens’ local government spokesperson Andy Wightman added: “Residents will be very disappointed with councillors who feel that issues that have nothing to do with local politics are deemed important in local elections.”

An SNP source said: “The Orange Order has made claims before and any claim now that it has significant influence is certainly overestimated.”

In response to McHarg, a Scottish Labour spokesperson said: “Every Labour councillor elected will fight for their local communities, not a divisive second independence referendum the people of Scotland don’t want.”

The Tories declined to comment on McHarg’s claims that it had at least one councillor who is a Lodge member.

Meanwhile, the Electoral Commission, the independent body which oversees elections in the UK, confirmed it would have no locus over the Lodge’s activities in the event of any complaints being made.

 

Brilliant response from Labour 

[phil]

10 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

And listen to Tories urging to vote for them to vote for the union - their own brand of nationalism and extremism. I swear Theresa May is Nigel Farage in a frock the way he/she is talking now. UKIP voters are loving that hence they jumped ship to vote Tory.

How does supporting the union automatically make you a nationalist/extremist?

 

I’ve never waived a union jack in my life and would feel embarrassed to do so, and I’d guess most NO voters would say the same. The union was a grubby compromise put together by hard-headed pragmatists, or a ‘parcel of rogues’ if you prefer, at a time of crisis. It was not the work of starry-eyed idealists or die-hard nationalists. And like it or not, and probably for that reason, it has worked.

 

It makes sense in a small monolingual, monolcultural island to pool resources and run things centrally. You can argue endlessly about how much local power should be devolved to the regions, but the basic premise is sound.

A truly independent Scotland would, presumably, mean a separate treasury, parallel civil service, Scottish embassies around the globe, probably a new currency, and maybe even a new independent Scottish army. This mad process of ‘Scotification’ would duplicate what we already have, at enormous cost, in what would be an impoverished state, just to make some people feel good, for a short time.

It’s bonkers, and opposing it doesn’t make you an extremist – just sane and rational.

[aaid]

11 hours ago, thplinth said:

The 'left' is losing ground because they have adopted insidious tactics. 

The SNP is losing ground to the tories because they are sucking up to the left.

This is not that difficult.

Stop sucking leftie tadge is the simple solution.

The SNP isn't losing ground to the Tories.  The Tories may be gaining ground on the SNP but that's not the same as the SNP losing ground.  For the SNP to be losing ground they have to, you know, actually lose some ground.

What these elections - following on from last year's HR elections - demonstrate is the further hollowing out of Labour, this time though they're losing voters to the Tories rather than the SNP as they did post 2014.

Fair enough, the SNP being dominant - is Scotland still a one party state - and Labour being a laughing stock isn't exactly news in Scotland so you can understand the triumphant Tories narrative to an extent but let's put it into some perspective, they are polling less than they did when Thatcher was in charge and at a lower rate as an opposition party than Jeremy Corbyn is UK wide.

There really isn't a right wing resurgence in Scotland despite the spin.

 

[Caledonian Craig]

Nationalism is a connection with one nation and that is just as evident in those seeking to preserve the union as it is those seeking independence (that is the brush everyone is tarnished with even though that may be incorrect it is the way of the world). You claim the union has worked - perhaps it did but not now. It is obsolete, past its sell by date and many people do not see it as the way forward.

I get it you don't feel Scotland is up to running its own affairs and country which I find is a very sad indictment on Scots and this country. Just look at things at present - stats show Scotland's NHS is out-performing the rest of the UK (okay not great but still doing better under a SCOTTISH government who back independence). Prison service are imploding in this union you feel is working (not in Scotland). So you see the signs are definitely there that Scotland can do things better alone and with MP's solely focused on Scotland and not having to bother about passing bills/laws in the South of England or in Anglesey. 

[Ally Bongo]

42 minutes ago, phil said:

How does supporting the union automatically make you a nationalist/extremist?

 

 

 

I’ve never waived a union jack in my life and would feel embarrassed to do so, and I’d guess most NO voters would say the same. The union was a grubby compromise put together by hard-headed pragmatists, or a ‘parcel of rogues’ if you prefer, at a time of crisis. It was not the work of starry-eyed idealists or die-hard nationalists. And like it or not, and probably for that reason, it has worked.

 

 

 

It makes sense in a small monolingual, monolcultural island to pool resources and run things centrally. You can argue endlessly about how much local power should be devolved to the regions, but the basic premise is sound.

 

A truly independent Scotland would, presumably, mean a separate treasury, parallel civil service, Scottish embassies around the globe, probably a new currency, and maybe even a new independent Scottish army. This mad process of ‘Scotification’ would duplicate what we already have, at enormous cost, in what would be an impoverished state, just to make some people feel good, for a short time.

 

It’s bonkers, and opposing it doesn’t make you an extremist – just sane and rational.

 

http://www.andersoncaledonian.com/blog/the-strange-case-of-the-self-loathing-scot

[aaid]

1 hour ago, phil said:

How does supporting the union automatically make you a nationalist/extremist?

 

 

 

I’ve never waived a union jack in my life and would feel embarrassed to do so, and I’d guess most NO voters would say the same. The union was a grubby compromise put together by hard-headed pragmatists, or a ‘parcel of rogues’ if you prefer, at a time of crisis. It was not the work of starry-eyed idealists or die-hard nationalists. And like it or not, and probably for that reason, it has worked.

 

 

 

It makes sense in a small monolingual, monolcultural island to pool resources and run things centrally. You can argue endlessly about how much local power should be devolved to the regions, but the basic premise is sound.

 

A truly independent Scotland would, presumably, mean a separate treasury, parallel civil service, Scottish embassies around the globe, probably a new currency, and maybe even a new independent Scottish army. This mad process of ‘Scotification’ would duplicate what we already have, at enormous cost, in what would be an impoverished state, just to make some people feel good, for a short time.

 

It’s bonkers, and opposing it doesn’t make you an extremist – just sane and rational.

 

I'll summarise that for you in 11 words.

I'm a proud Scot but too wee, too poor, too stupid.

[Regenmann]

2 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Here's the full text of the Sunday Herald investigation that Toepoke posted earlier

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15270068.Orange_Order_elected_to_councils_as_Labour_and_Tory_members/?ref=mr&lp=2

Brilliant response from Labour 

However, the Lodge’s intervention sparked concerns from SNP and Green members. Scottish Green leader Patrick Harvie said: “Most people will view the Orange Lodge as an unpleasant organisation with a sectarian past."

Although Harvie is quite happy to prop up an organisation with a sectarian past - from Andrew Dewar Gibb in the 30s through to Billy Wolfe in the 80s.

[Ally Bongo]

2 minutes ago, Regenmann said:

However, the Lodge’s intervention sparked concerns from SNP and Green members. Scottish Green leader Patrick Harvie said: “Most people will view the Orange Lodge as an unpleasant organisation with a sectarian past."

Although Harvie is quite happy to prop up an organisation with a sectarian past - from Andrew Dewar Gibb in the 30s through to Billy Wolfe in the 80s.

Gibb resigned as leader of the SNP in 1940, due to what he regarded as its rapid lurch to the left.^[1] By 1947 he was considering returning to the Unionist Party, and possibly running for Parliament once more under their banner.^[7]

In a January 1982 letter to the Church of Scotland magazine, Life and Work, Wolfe attacked the appointment of a papal nuncio to the United Kingdom. In a subsequent letter to The Scotsman in April 1982, following the outbreak of the Falklands War, he said it would be a negation of democracy for "the cruel and ruthless fascist dictatorship of a Roman Catholic state", i.e. Argentina, to take over the "mainly Protestant and democratically minded Falklanders, mostly descendants of Scots".^[7][8] In both instances the SNP's National Executive Committee disowned Wolfe's statements, causing Wolfe to withdraw his candidacy from that year's election for the office of party president. Wolfe later apologised for his remarks, saying "I ask for forgiveness of those whom I hurt, if they understand me now. I can see myself then as others saw me ... I don't know why I did it.”^[9] His second wife, Kate McAteer, was a practising Roman Catholic.

 

Pathetic comparisons

[ErsatzThistle]

12 minutes ago, Regenmann said:

However, the Lodge’s intervention sparked concerns from SNP and Green members. Scottish Green leader Patrick Harvie said: “Most people will view the Orange Lodge as an unpleasant organisation with a sectarian past."

Although Harvie is quite happy to prop up an organisation with a sectarian past - from Andrew Dewar Gibb in the 30s through to Billy Wolfe in the 80s.

Firstly, Gibb left the SNP circa 1940 because he only supported advanced devolution and not independence.

Secondly, it was revealed after his death in 2010 that Wolfe had become a Roman Catholic upon his second marriage to Kate McAteer in 1993. Wolfe's funeral was a Roman Catholic mass in Hamilton.

Do keep up old chap.

It's also worth pointing out that one of the SNP's founders, Compton Mackenzie, was a devout Catholic.

Edited May 7, 2017 by ErsatzThistle

[hampden_loon2878]

12 hours ago, aaid said:

You were quoting the Banff and Buchan numbers earlier today. 

Conservatives won gordon by 3400 first preference votes