Poppies on shirts?

[Fermer]

When I was young we learned about Pavlov's dogs.  I hadn't thought much about them until recently on this board.  And it's brilliant the way it works with humans.  Our resident hater of all things British/Rangers/Establishment/Fire Brigade, etc etc.  You can picture the scene with him. WGS got him to a tee.  Sitting behind a keyboard with two cans of Kestrel and a whippet.  So lets try a word for response about the bad British Army who are thee worst in the world at anything and everything.  Ok lets try:

POPPIES

[Fermer]

Quote

His eyes are now red and mouth watering raring to respond but can't.  C'mon you hate us just let it flow..............

 

[DoonTheSlope]

Glasgow plod horses wearing poppies at the play-off game

 

 

[ceudmilefailte]

On 11/5/2016 at 0:10 AM, ErsatzThistle said:

Suggest you read about how "our soldiers" fought brutal campaigns against pro-independence and pro-civil rights movements in - Ireland (1916-1921), Iraq (1920), India (continuously until 1947), Burma (continuously until 1948), Kenya (1952-1960), Oman (1954-1959), Malaya (1948-1960) and Aden (1963-1967). They were brutal colonial oppressors and are not remembered fondly in these nations. Face the facts.

Read about the concentration camps established and "our brave boys" indulging in gang rapes in Kenya or the use of extremely harmful chemical defoliants and saturation bombing used in Malaya during the 1950s. Not to mention the casual torture of prisoners, many of them innocent. 

You may want to brush all that under the carpet but I'd like kids to learn about this. 

Your missing the point, we are not celebrating the British army. We are simply remembering an entire generation who fought and died in the most unimaginable conditions to secure our way of life. 

[ErsatzThistle]

1 minute ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Your missing the point, we are not celebrating the British army. We are simply remembering an entire generation who fought and died in the most unimaginable conditions to secure our way of life. 

You yourself may not be celebrating the British Army. But many others are.

Have you not seen the state of many of these jingoistic events across the UK ?

They are outright celebrations of militarism, death and destruction. There was even an army recruitment stall at one event in Glasgow a couple of years back. Kids are being brainwashed into believing that the Brits were always on the side of right. 

The legion have been keen to stress that the poppy is for Britain's military in all conflicts. Such conflicts include the ones I've listed previously - Oman, Malaya, Kenya - conflicts where the brave lads in khaki enforced internment without trial, destruction of property, shot unarmed civilians, gang rapes, torture etc. 

You do understand that many people throughout Africa and Asia would in fact tell you that the British Army done everything they could to suppress their way of life and forced them to live in the most unimaginable conditions ? 

Brutally crushing pro-independence and pro-civil rights movements in dozens of other countries across the globe should not be remembered with pride, it should be remembered with shame. 

I prefer to be one of "the scum" (as we are frequently described) who wears the Peace Pledge Union's white poppy for peace, reconciliation and to remember all the victims of all wars. 

The poppy should be kept out of sport at least.

[Jacques Hunt]

30 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

You yourself may not be celebrating the British Army. But many others are.

Have you not seen the state of many of these jingoistic events across the UK ?

They are outright celebrations of militarism, death and destruction. There was even an army recruitment stall at one event in Glasgow a couple of years back. Kids are being brainwashed into believing that the Brits were always on the side of right. 

The legion have been keen to stress that the poppy is for Britain's military in all conflicts. Such conflicts include the ones I've listed previously - Oman, Malaya, Kenya - conflicts where the brave lads in khaki enforced internment without trial, destruction of property, shot unarmed civilians, gang rapes, torture etc. 

You do understand that many people throughout Africa and Asia would in fact tell you that the British Army done everything they could to suppress their way of life and forced them to live in the most unimaginable conditions ? 

Brutally crushing pro-independence and pro-civil rights movements in dozens of other countries across the globe should not be remembered with pride, it should be remembered with shame. 

I prefer to be one of "the scum" (as we are frequently described) who wears the Peace Pledge Union's white poppy for peace, reconciliation and to remember all the victims of all wars. 

The poppy should be kept out of sport at least.

Another fine post with which I agree entirely.

[DonnyTJS]

57 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

You yourself may not be celebrating the British Army. But many others are.

Have you not seen the state of many of these jingoistic events across the UK ?

They are outright celebrations of militarism, death and destruction. There was even an army recruitment stall at one event in Glasgow a couple of years back. Kids are being brainwashed into believing that the Brits were always on the side of right. 

The legion have been keen to stress that the poppy is for Britain's military in all conflicts. Such conflicts include the ones I've listed previously - Oman, Malaya, Kenya - conflicts where the brave lads in khaki enforced internment without trial, destruction of property, shot unarmed civilians, gang rapes, torture etc. 

You do understand that many people throughout Africa and Asia would in fact tell you that the British Army done everything they could to suppress their way of life and forced them to live in the most unimaginable conditions ? 

Brutally crushing pro-independence and pro-civil rights movements in dozens of other countries across the globe should not be remembered with pride, it should be remembered with shame. 

I prefer to be one of "the scum" (as we are frequently described) who wears the Peace Pledge Union's white poppy for peace, reconciliation and to remember all the victims of all wars. 

The poppy should be kept out of sport at least.

Yes, the poppy should be kept out of sport. If it's imposed on individuals, its symbolism is devalued. However to claim that the British army were always on the wrong side is as historically illiterate as to claim it was always on the side of the right. In what sense was the Malaya insurgency a pro-independence or pro-civil rights movement? What evidence is there for British army involvement in gang rape in Oman? Do you know why Britain became involved in Kenya in the first place?

[Fermer]

26 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Yes, the poppy should be kept out of sport. If it's imposed on individuals, its symbolism is devalued. However to claim that the British army were always on the wrong side is as historically illiterate as to claim it was always on the side of the right. In what sense was the Malaya insurgency a pro-independence or pro-civil rights movement? What evidence is there for British army involvement in gang rape in Oman? Do you know why Britain became involved in Kenya in the first place?

Don't even try to have a sensible conversation mate.  No wi this one.  He is an expert in all wars with his specialist subject on mastermind: Oman.  Be better wi Bart Simpson conversation on Ooo man.

[Stu101]

25 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Yes, the poppy should be kept out of sport. If it's imposed on individuals, its symbolism is devalued. However to claim that the British army were always on the wrong side is as historically illiterate as to claim it was always on the side of the right. In what sense was the Malaya insurgency a pro-independence or pro-civil rights movement? What evidence is there for British army involvement in gang rape in Oman? Do you know why Britain became involved in Kenya in the first place?

Exactly. Not everything can be distilled into good and bad, unless your being overtly simplistic. And some of what ErsatzThistle is just nonsence - especially in relation to Malaysia (Unless you think Communism can be equated with civil rights).

Wear a poppy if you want, if you dont, then dont. Dont impose your views on anyone else. Otherwise your going down exactly the same line of thought that those brave men and woman fought against. 

The end.

[Fermer]

12 minutes ago, Stu101 said:

Exactly. Not everything can be distilled into good and bad, unless your being overtly simplistic. And some of what ErsatzThistle is just nonsence - especially in relation to Malaysia (Unless you think Communism can be equated with civil rights).

Wear a poppy if you want, if you dont, then dont. Dont impose your views on anyone else. Otherwise your going down exactly the same line of thought that those brave men and woman fought against. 

The end.

Well said.

[DoonTheSlope]

49 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

What evidence is there for British army involvement in gang rape in Oman? Do you know why Britain became involved in Kenya in the first place?

I don't know anything about gang rapes in Oman or Kenya but after the Serbia game many moons ago I did spend a short time in the company of an old boy from Aberdeen who got bumped by his grandsons who not only shared a pint with us but also stories all about his time serving in the British forces.

He took great delight in telling us about his time in Africa where he paid a local lass 5 pence for a blowjob in Rwanda only for an irate local to come out waving a spear about. 

He never got his blowjob in the end 

???

Edited November 6, 2016 by DoonTheSlope

[Orraloon]

1 minute ago, DoonTheSlope said:

I don't know anything about gang rapes in Oman or Kenya but after the Serbia game many moons ago I did spend a short time in the company of an old boy from Aberdeen who got bumped by his grandsons who not only shared a pint with us but also stories all about his time serving in the British forces.

He took great delight in telling us about his time in Africa where he paid a local dame 5 pence for a blowjob in Rwanda only for an irate local to come out waving a spear about. 

He never got his blowjob in the end 

???

Did he get his 5p  back? That wid be a sair one for an Aberdonian. I'm surprised he shared his pint with you. 3 straws was it?

 

[Stu101]

2 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Did he get his 5p  back? That wid be a sair one for an Aberdonian. I'm surprised he shared his pint with you. 3 straws was it?

 

[ErsatzThistle]

8 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Yes, the poppy should be kept out of sport. If it's imposed on individuals, its symbolism is devalued. However to claim that the British army were always on the wrong side is as historically illiterate as to claim it was always on the side of the right. In what sense was the Malaya insurgency a pro-independence or pro-civil rights movement? What evidence is there for British army involvement in gang rape in Oman? Do you know why Britain became involved in Kenya in the first place?

Wow, a serious defence of colonial rule 

Where did I claim they were always on the wrong side ? Nice try, I said most of the time they were, didn't say always.

Well done in also conflating many of my points.

The amount of atrocities committed in Ireland between 1916 and 1921 are too many to list here. The legions poster boy, Montgomery of Alamein even admitted to his own involvement in the destruction of houses and terrorising civilians. 

The UK government just a few years ago payed out £19,900,000 to 5,228 Kenyan's who proved that they were tortured, imprisoned, castrated or raped by the "heroes" of Britain's armed forces. During the early 1950s the British attorney general in Kenya during the insurgency wrote that the army's "detention" camps established out there were "distressingly reminiscent of conditions in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia". 

In 1952 a confidential report by colonial authorities regarding British troops killing prisoners, torturing others and mutilating corpses in Malaya said the following "there is no doubt that under international law a similar case in wartime would be a war crime". The RAF's dropping of powerful defoliants over huge stretches of bush and farmland resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilians starving and the land being rendered useless for years to come. 

The MNLA and the Mau-Mau were certainly not perfect, I don't claim that at all. However they were anti-colonial movements and it's no surprise that so many people joined them or where at least sympathetic to them. In fact many repudiated them after independence, they had used them as a means to an end, freedom from British colonial tyranny. 

The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders behaved appallingly during their time in Aden. Yet their veterans to this day regard their time out there and their daily routine of battering civilians unconscious, smashing up their houses, looting their possessions as something to have a good laugh about. These bullying thugs were an utter disgrace to Scotland. 

Too many people have a really disturbing bond with the British military. Time to let go I think.

2 minutes ago, Stu101 said:

Exactly. Not everything can be distilled into good and bad, unless your being overtly simplistic. And some of what ErsatzThistle is just nonsence - especially in relation to Malaysia (Unless you think Communism can be equated with civil rights).

Wear a poppy if you want, if you dont, then dont. Dont impose your views on anyone else. Otherwise your going down exactly the same line of thought that those brave men and woman fought against. 

The end.

What was so good about colonial rule and these lads from another country kicking them about, exploiting their labour and natural resources and believing they were superior because of the skin colour and faith ? I can understand why they wanted fought back.

The heroic myths about the army are too commonly accepted.

Kids at school should learn about the many war crimes the British Army committed.

I would like to think that the government of an independent Scotland would offer a full, unconditional apology to all these former nations where us Scots once caused so much pain, fear and misery. It takes a big nation to admit it was wrong and say sorry.

[DonnyTJS]

1 hour ago, ErsatzThistle said:

1 hour ago, ErsatzThistle said:

 

Wow, a serious defence of colonial rule 

Where did I claim they were always on the wrong side ? Nice try, I said most of the time they were, didn't say always

 

I would like to think that the government of an independent Scotland would offer a full, unconditional apology to all these former nations where us Scots once caused so much pain, fear and misery. It takes a big nation to admit it was wrong and say sorry.

Ah, so you get your knowledge of history from Wikipedia. Fine.

I've lived an worked in Africa and Asia for some 14 years and this: "You do understand that many people throughout Africa and Asia would in fact tell you that the British Army done everything they could to suppress their way of life and forced them to live in the most unimaginable conditions?" is tabloid bollocks.

Why should a Scottish government apologize for the eradication of the brutal East African Arab slave trade? It was David Livingstone's press campaign, and the public outcry that resulted, that led to British involvement in what became Kenya.

As has been said, history is far more complex that the simplistic take on it that you've provided us with.

 

[girvanTA]

7 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Ah, so you get your knowledge of history from Wikipedia. Fine.

I've lived an worked in Africa and Asia for some 14 years and this: "You do understand that many people throughout Africa and Asia would in fact tell you that the British Army done everything they could to suppress their way of life and forced them to live in the most unimaginable conditions?" is tabloid bollocks.

Why should a Scottish government apologize for the eradication of the brutal East African Arab slave trade? It was David Livingstone's press campaign, and the public outcry that resulted, that led to British involvement in what became Kenya.

As has been said, history is far more complex that the simplistic take on it that you've provided us with.

 

He'll be spitting feathers now and probably kick feck out his dug, who is called poppy

[DonnyTJS]

1 hour ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Wow, a serious defence of colonial rule 

 

Oh, and I'm not defending colonial rule. History isn't a matter of prosecution and defence - when it is it's bad history. It's looking at the facts, to the extent that they are available and identifiable, and trying interpret them in such as way as to give as close to a consistent narrative as possible. What you're indulging in is not history, it's polemic.

Notions of pride or shame for events over which one had no influence are equally meaningless. You suggested earlier that another poster should 'read'. I'm all for it, but read beyond the Wikipedia page on British Army War Crimes. In the cases of Aden, Malaya, Kenya and Oman we can also talk to those involved (with the exception of Oman, I have done so in each case - and not only the British) and learn from the perspectives of those who experienced those times. It's more edifying, and eye-opening, than ranting from a digital soapbox on a football forum.

[Stu101]

5 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Oh, and I'm not defending colonial rule. History isn't a matter of prosecution and defence - when it is it's bad history. It's looking at the facts, to the extent that they are available and identifiable, and trying interpret them in such as way as to give as close to a consistent narrative as possible. What you're indulging in is not history, it's polemic.

Notions of pride or shame for events over which one had no influence are equally meaningless. You suggested earlier that another poster should 'read'. I'm all for it, but read beyond the Wikipedia page on British Army War Crimes. In the cases of Aden, Malaya, Kenya and Oman we can also talk to those involved (with the exception of Oman, I have done so in each case - and not only the British) and learn from the perspectives of those who experienced those times. It's more edifying, and eye-opening, than ranting from a digital soapbox on a football forum.

Spot on.

[ErsatzThistle]

52 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Ah, so you get your knowledge of history from Wikipedia. Fine.

I've lived an worked in Africa and Asia for some 14 years and this: "You do understand that many people throughout Africa and Asia would in fact tell you that the British Army done everything they could to suppress their way of life and forced them to live in the most unimaginable conditions?" is tabloid bollocks.

Why should a Scottish government apologize for the eradication of the brutal East African Arab slave trade? It was David Livingstone's press campaign, and the public outcry that resulted, that led to British involvement in what became Kenya.

As has been said, history is far more complex that the simplistic take on it that you've provided us with.

Again you have completely twisted what I said.

However, I've noticed that's what you always do when you debate with anyone on this board, patronise and twist the content, your an expert at it. So what's the point ?

I've posted facts. All of them admitted by the British government and in their own archives declassified. It's all out there to read by anyone, even an apologist for colonial atrocities like you.

10 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Oh, and I'm not defending colonial rule. History isn't a matter of prosecution and defence - when it is it's bad history. It's looking at the facts, to the extent that they are available and identifiable, and trying interpret them in such as way as to give as close to a consistent narrative as possible. What you're indulging in is not history, it's polemic.

Notions of pride or shame for events over which one had no influence are equally meaningless. You suggested earlier that another poster should 'read'. I'm all for it, but read beyond the Wikipedia page on British Army War Crimes. In the cases of Aden, Malaya, Kenya and Oman we can also talk to those involved (with the exception of Oman, I have done so in each case - and not only the British) and learn from the perspectives of those who experienced those times. It's more edifying, and eye-opening, than ranting from a digital soapbox on a football forum.

Yeah sweep it under the carpet, that's a good idea. 

I actually used some old articles from the Guardian and event the Daily Mail but knock yourself out as an apologist for it all.

And yes I do believe the government of an independent Scotland should formally apologise to the former colonies because Scottish soldiers, colonial police, missionaries, merchants and colonial civil servants were at the rotten core of the empire and the oppression and exploitation of others. I repeat, it takes a big nation to admit it was wrong and say sorry.

I care not a jot for all these silly ridiculous regiments and corps of the army, or the meaningless little medals and ribbons. The whole notion of "Scotland's proud military heritage" leaves me cold and ashamed, not proud at all. All of it is just elaborate window dressing to distract people, to romanticise the whole vile, bloody business. 

My sympathies lie with those throughout history who had the guts to say "no" to war and imperialism.

The men and women who spoke out against the threatening other countries, recruitment for the forces or helping to manufacture munitions, against starving civilians by blockade or blasting their towns and cities to hell and bravely called for negotiated peace - are the real heroes.

And what did they suffer for it ? Imprisonment or fines, many were shunned by former friends and even by family. Many too lost their jobs and were expelled from clubs and societies they were members of. Daily venomous hatred inspired by the press and politicians, lapped up by the gullible and narrow minded resulted in those who spoke against war being physically assaulted and their properties attacked - all because they simply wouldn't follow the crowd.

A few posters on this thread would of course consider such people to be "treacherous scum" no doubt because they loved, respected and cared for humanity rather than killing.

I won't post on this thread again, I think everyone's getting bored with it all and will leave the billy brits to their worship of their precious military and making excuses for their brave boys in khaki acting like savages in foreign lands - but before I do I'll end with this hopeful reflection.

Thankfully an increasing number of people are beginning to reject this celebration of war and either ignore it altogether or campaign for peace and reconciliation instead.  

Edited November 7, 2016 by ErsatzThistle

[girvanTA]

Thank Christ that's his last post on this thread. Clearly something wrong with him

[greenforever]

From an outsider I find this practice of forcing people to wear poppys disgusting.

It is political and comments as made by Theresa May just reinforce this.

There is nothing genuine about this anymore and shows the UK as an intolerant society.

 

[Malcolm]

39 minutes ago, greenforever said:

From an outsider I find this practice of forcing people to wear poppys disgusting.

It is political and comments as made by Theresa May just reinforce this.

There is nothing genuine about this anymore and shows the UK as an intolerant society.

 

Nobody is being forced to wear a poppy.  It's entirely personal choice, and everyone should have that choice.  On a personal level i choose to do this to remember the poor souls who made the ultimate sacrifice to let me live the life I do today.  Not, as some people here are suggesting, as part of any triumphalist   Statement.  Unfortunately, like many aspects of the game, some people take a political view on it.

[vanderark14]

3 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Nobody is being forced to wear a poppy.  It's entirely personal choice, and everyone should have that choice.  On a personal level i choose to do this to remember the poor souls who made the ultimate sacrifice to let me live the life I do today.  Not, as some people here are suggesting, as part of any triumphalist   Statement.  Unfortunately, like many aspects of the game, some people take a political view on it.

Nobody is forced to wear one but public figures often face online abuse for choosing not to wear one. On a personal level I don't wear one because of the change in reason for the poppy. I will instead observe the minutes silence and respect those who died for our freedom in WW1 and WW2. That's where it ends, I don't have to respect the sacrifices made in any of the other armed conflicts which the poppy now represents. 

 

[girvanTA]

4 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Nobody is being forced to wear a poppy.  It's entirely personal choice, and everyone should have that choice.  On a personal level i choose to do this to remember the poor souls who made the ultimate sacrifice to let me live the life I do today.  Not, as some people here are suggesting, as part of any triumphalist   Statement.  Unfortunately, like many aspects of the game, some people take a political view on it.

Well said

[greenforever]

5 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Nobody is being forced to wear a poppy.  It's entirely personal choice, and everyone should have that choice.  On a personal level i choose to do this to remember the poor souls who made the ultimate sacrifice to let me live the life I do today.  Not, as some people here are suggesting, as part of any triumphalist   Statement.  Unfortunately, like many aspects of the game, some people take a political view on it.

How can you say noone is firced to wear a poppy if its embroided into the nwtch day shirt

James McClean refuses to wear one and gets death threats in social media and a huge amount of abuse.

How you can even think that this is a voluntary gesture ? - 

Wear a poppy or face massive abuse

Some freedom that is