Have The Wheels Come Off

[ShedTA]

In all honesty I used to change daily on what I thought the result would be. I used to think on the whole that it probably wouldn't happen but a week ago I felt the momentum and polls were with Yes and that it could happen. That momentum has seemed to have stalled a bit and if I had to bet my house on it I would say that no will probably win.

Hope I am wrong and that it is just anxiety taking hold.

I am the same but I hate to admit it to myself.

[Tartan Eagle]

I don't need this right now. I am so low about how they are now trying to paint our wonderful campaign and the fantastic experience I have been part of!

I've been following from down south but am no less committed to this campaign for that.

My best friend is, like you, an active campaigner.

I told him months ago that if there's YES it'll be down to people like him, and you, and the thousands of others in this wonderful grass roots movement [how about the "Lawn Dawn"?!]

Folk like me, who've wanted this all their lives (my first vote was in the '79 refy) stand in awe of what you are all achieving.

My mate spoke with Jim Sillars a few months ago, who echoed what a poster on this thread said recently, namely that after a lifetime of campaigning, in which he had won and lost in all sets circumstances, he has never been more sure of winning than throughout this campaign.

Now, you can agree or not with his politics (of course that's where the fun starts post-Yes) but it's hard not to take his campaign experience seriously. He said this in a quiet off-stage moment and not for the audience.

The media/establishment/state/big corporate onslaught wasn't a big problem until the YouGov poll showed for YES when we were in Dortmund.

But the ramping up of "The Propoganda Machine" has backfiring - it even inspired a very southern English friend of mine to volunteer to me last week that he was sickened by the BBC coverage, and considering writing a letter of complaint.

People down here have seen this; people throughout Scotland have seen if (and not just the Yes voters).

Between now and tomorrow night, believe nothing you see or hear from them, and especially not their attacks on the fantastic work you are doing reaching out across the entire country.

Do not despair at what they're putting out.

I didn't see a single wide angle shot of the crowd pics of Buchanan St, Inverness, or Pacific Quay or of the scenes inside the Usher Hall. I did see a DPS on the OO in SOS, and also TV shots and press coverage today of the Trafalgar Sq rally last nigh.

Because there are no pictures doesn't mean these huge displays of popular support didn't happen - I'll be watching the coverage tonight but doubt if I'll see any pictures of the SCALE of the rally).

The fact that all these thousands are out on the streets is due to the efforts of people like you Lamia, and my pal Blair, and so many of the TAMBERS on here and the thousands of regular but extraordinary people like you throughout the country.

Whatever Thursday/Friday hold in store

KEEP THE FAITH: from us all THANK YOU!!

Edited September 16, 2014 by Tartan Eagle

[jock strap]

An interesting wee piece here that might calm a few anxieties:http://emeraldnewsnetwork.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/something-fishy-in-the-scottish-polls/

Interesting from a neutral point.

Hope it's true

[Orraloon]

I've been following from down south but am no less committed to this campaign for that.

My best friend is, like you, an active campaigner.

I told him months ago that if there's YES it'll be down to people like him, and you, and the thousands of others in this wonderful grass roots movement [how about the "Lawn Dawn"?!]

Folk like me, who've wanted this all their lives (my first vote was in the '79 refy) stand in awe of what you are all achieving.

My mate spoke with Jim Sillars a few months ago, who echoed what a poster on this thread said recently, namely that after a lifetime of campaigning, in which he had won and lost in all sets circumstances, he has never been more sure of winning than throughout this campaign.

Now, you can agree or not with his politics (of course that's where the fun starts post-Yes) but it's hard not to take his campaign experience seriously. He said this in a quiet off-stage moment and not for the audience.

The media/establishment/state/big corporate onslaught wasn't a big problem until the YouGov poll showed for YES when we were in Dortmund.

But the ramping up of "The Propoganda Machine" has backfiring - it even inspired a very southern English friend of mine to volunteer to me last week that he was sickened by the BBC coverage, and considering writing a letter of complaint.

People down here have seen this; people throughout Scotland have seen if (and not just the Yes voters).

Between now and tomorrow night, believe nothing you see or hear from them, and especially not their attacks on the fantastic work you are doing reaching out across the entire country.

Do not despair at what they're putting out.

I didn't see a single wide angle shot of the crowd pics of Buchanan St, Inverness, or Pacific Quay or of the scenes inside the Usher Hall. I did see a DPS on the OO in SOS, and also TV shots and press coverage today of the Trafalgar Sq rally last nigh.

Because there are no pictures doesn't mean these huge displays of popular support didn't happen - I'll be watching the coverage tonight but doubt if I'll see any pictures of the SCALE of the rally).

The fact that all these thousands are out on the streets is due to the efforts of people like you Lamia, and my pal Blair, and so many of the TAMBERS on here and the thousands of regular but extraordinary people like you throughout the country.

Whatever Thursday/Friday hold in store

KEEP THE FAITH: from us all THANK YOU!!

Excellent post. That's the sort of message that helped Nelson Mandela through his darkest moments. This is the start of our very own "Long Walk To Freedom". We will do this, but we need to keep going for the big final push.

[Bristolhibby]

ehh, you do realise that part of this is that Scotland will no longer be part of Britain and that Scottish folk will no longer have british passports. People with them just now "might" get to keep them but the general gist of the argument is to go it alone.

You will be able to have dual nationality with the rump though. Someone living in Edinburgh will still be able to get a rumpUK Passport much as someone born in Belfast can have an Eire passport.

This isn't the divorce that we are being told to believe. Pretty much everyone will be allowed to have dual nationality, just like people like me will be able to.

J

[thorbotnic]

Why do you keep posting pish like this? You have been informed umpteen times that as EU citizens we have the right to use the consular services of any EU country. They have the obligation to help us out and most of them will be very happy to do so. Your nonsense only becomes an issue if the UK choses to leave the EU.

are we getting kicked out of the Commonwealth as well ? I personally know Australians who have used British Embassy/Consulate for passport issues to get temp passports to exit contries

Until the rUK leaves the EU in 2017 this situation would continue. EU citizens are entitled to assistance at any EU consulate.

I have no objection to EU or Commonwealth citizens having access to UK consular facilities, as this is reciprocated and (presumably) some kind of funding mechanism is in place.

What I object to is Scottish citizens using UK facilities as UK citizens, which is what the case will be if dual nationality is an option for everyone who chooses to take Scottish citizenship. Who foots the bill for that?

[mariokempes56]

I have no objection to EU or Commonwealth citizens having access to UK consular facilities, as this is reciprocated and (presumably) some kind of funding mechanism is in place.

What I object to is Scottish citizens using UK facilities as UK citizens, which is what the case will be if dual nationality is an option for everyone who chooses to take Scottish citizenship. Who foots the bill for that?

Does it really matter ? What percentage of the population ever use the facilities ?

[EvilScotsman]

I have no objection to EU or Commonwealth citizens having access to UK consular facilities, as this is reciprocated and (presumably) some kind of funding mechanism is in place.

What I object to is Scottish citizens using UK facilities as UK citizens, which is what the case will be if dual nationality is an option for everyone who chooses to take Scottish citizenship. Who foots the bill for that?

I may be wrong, but is this not limited to 1 generation e.g. everyone living in Scotland on independence day would be eligible for dual nationality, as would their (unborn) children, but that their grandchildren would not?

[Orraloon]

I have no objection to EU or Commonwealth citizens having access to UK consular facilities, as this is reciprocated and (presumably) some kind of funding mechanism is in place.

What I object to is Scottish citizens using UK facilities as UK citizens, which is what the case will be if dual nationality is an option for everyone who chooses to take Scottish citizenship. Who foots the bill for that?

Probably just as well you wont have a say in the matter then.

[giblet]

I have no objection to EU or Commonwealth citizens having access to UK consular facilities, as this is reciprocated and (presumably) some kind of funding mechanism is in place.

What I object to is Scottish citizens using UK facilities as UK citizens, which is what the case will be if dual nationality is an option for everyone who chooses to take Scottish citizenship. Who foots the bill for that?

Call it reparation for the amount of additional tax take from Scotland compared to rest of UK.

[thorbotnic]

Probably just as well you wont have a say in the matter then.

Manifesto promises re. citizenship will be one thing I consider carefully before voting in May 2015.

[Ex-Whitfield]

[EvilScotsman]

Manifesto promises re. citizenship will be one thing I consider carefully before voting in May 2015.

I'd be surprised if you have much of a choice.

[neilly71]

for all the folks who are understandably nervous, turn it around and just realise your excited for gawds sake. Bear in mind that despite relentless media scarestories and unprecedented bias we are still (officially) neck and neck. Canvassing on the ground points to a better result than just merely neck and neck. Bear in mind we won a majority in 2011, this time round we know we have 40% at least of the traditional Labour vote. 1.5 million have signed the YES pledge, now i know plenty of Yes voters and none of them have signed. Think about the people you know who have come over to YES from a previous stance of NO or undecided, that isnt happening the other way around. And finally, please remember that panic is endemic, hope over fear friends. We CAN do this. Lets leave the negativity to the Nawbags.

Edited September 16, 2014 by neilly71

[neilser]

Living in another country is one thing - taking the citizenship of another country is another. Plenty of states around the world do not allow dual nationality; the UK has, traditionally. For state which do not allow dual citizenship you automatically lose citizenship of that state when you acquire another state's citizenship, so nobody is left stateless.

The UK can do what it wants with regards to its nationality law - this is a fundamental principle of international law. Like I said, generally speaking dual nationality is an anomaly which can simply be ignored as it's on a small-scale basis, but what we would see in Scotland is a huge increase in dual Scottish / British citizens, domiciled outside the UK, but who would still have claim to UK consular / visa services and the rights of citizenship despite not paying anything towards the upkeep of the British state. As a UK citizen, I would take issue at that. If the people of Scotland are choosing not to be part of the UK, then they are choosing not to be part of all that that represents - they should have to choose between which citizenship they want.

This started off being about passports, not citizenship. You're now arguing about what you want to see as regards citizenship - fair dos, but it's a different topic.

One problem you've got though is that Scottish citizenship is something that will be bestowed on the inhabitants of Scotland who are already British citizens. It's not even something that those inhabitants will have to apply for. Assuming that there are about 4.9 milion of those inhabitants who are British citizens, you're advocating that those 4.9 million inhabitants should lose their British citizenship merely by virtue of happening to live in Scotland when it becomes an independent country, whereas there's no prospect of British citizenship being lost by virtue of a British citizen living in any other country outside the UK, despite not paying anything towards the upkeep of the British state.

The other, more fundamental, problem you've got is that Britain allows dual citizenship and has done for years - it's simply not an issue.

https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/261499/bn18.pdf

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/sep/13/britishidentity.travelnews

Edited September 16, 2014 by neilser

[Orraloon]

Manifesto promises re. citizenship will be one thing I consider carefully before voting in May 2015.

Aye? I thought you would have more important things to think about.

[Orraloon]

for all the folks who are understandably nervous, turn it around and just realise your excited for gawds sake. Bear in mind that despite relentless media scarestories and unprecedented bias we are still (officially) neck and neck. Canvassing on the ground points to a better result than just merely neck and neck. Bear in mind we won a majority in 2011, this time round we know we have 40% at least of the traditional Labour vote. 1.5 million have signed the YES pledge, now i know plenty of Yes voters and none of them have signed. Think about the people you know who have come over to YES from a previous stance of NO or undecided, that isnt happening the other way around. And finally, please remember that panic is endemic, hope over fear friends. We CAN do this. Lets leave the negativity to the Nawbags.

That's a very good point. If a few folk on the YES side are feeling a wee bit nervous just imagine how the Naebags are feeling. They are shyting themselves.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Orraloon

[thplinth]

Everyone is shiteing themselves at this point. The whole nation is on the verge of explosive diarrhea.

[Pool Q]

Dual citizenship is a legacy of Empire. It is a practical solution to the UK having British passport holders and citizens scattered all over the globe in countries that have achieved independence. Various UK nationality acts over the years have been introduced to control access to British passports and also to residency but I don't think any will have impacted on those who held British citizenship at the time a country became independent. The obvious parallel is with Ireland where dual citizenship is common to this day, and whose citizens can still vote in UK elections. This really is a non issue.

[Orraloon]

Everyone is shiteing themselves at this point. The whole nation is on the verge of explosive diarrhea.

Could be a few spoilt ballot papers.

[Auld_Reekie]

The behaviour of the bookies aside, small snippet from work. Spoke to three lassies months ago about the vote and two were adamant they were No's - didnt even want to have the debate, not even interested in hearing the debate. The other lass was a probably No but was being leant on by her boyfriend.

This morning's news was that the probable No has already voted Yes, one of the adamant No's wasn't voting, and the other adamant No was likely to vote Yes.

[glasgow jock]

Could be a few spoilt ballot papers.

[fierypict]

Guys, just been leafleting in the Drylaw/Pilton area of Edinburgh.... Still getting very good results.

This whole thing has got so many imponderables, I'm defo still very upbeat about our chances !

From that and the canvassing I was doing off Leith Walk I was getting about 55% AYE 25% NAW & 20% undecideds.

Of course, it will be different up and down the country, but I defo think 20% to 30% will only make up their minds when they're in the wee booth, or some might no even get that far....As far as I see it, it's aw up for grabs

Edited September 16, 2014 by fierypict

[thplinth]

My mother said she is voting No due to folk at her bowling club telling her her pension would be cut.

Think she is wavering now after some effort. Anyone got anything snappy on pensions I can send her?

[neilly71]