Have The Wheels Come Off

[thorbotnic]

They can't take your passport off you/refuse to renew it just because you happen to live in post-independence Scotland or indeed in any other country - it's not necessary to be a resident of the UK to have a British passport and there's no reason to believe it'll be any different after independence. It's also possible to have dual citizenship and two passports - I know of people with Irish and British passports and Australian and British passports . There will be literally thousands of British citizens (although they wouldn't necessarily regard themselves in such terms) in Northern Ireland with Republic of Ireland passports (due to the Republic's fairly laid back approach on this issue) who will also have a British passport or at least the right to have a British passport.

This is just more havers from Cameron - he's a truly desperate man.

While you're correct that the UK has generally never had a problem with dual nationality, I think that Scottish independence would create an unprecedented situation. Effectively, if all current UK citizens who qualify for Scottish citizenship (and choose to take it up) also retain their UK citizenship, the UK would face a group of approx 5 million people in a neighbouring, foreign state, but who are full British citizens. Having a few million people around the world with dual UK citizenship is one thing; it's quite another to have a country on your doorstep where all (or almost all) of the citizens can also claim all of the rights of UK citizenship. I would prefer it if the UK made special provision to ensure that current Scottish-domiciled UK citizens must choose one nationality or the other.

Edited September 16, 2014 by thorbotnic

[neilser]

While you're correct that the UK has generally never had a problem with dual nationality, I think that Scottish independence would create an unprecedented situation. Effectively, if all current UK citizens who qualify for Scottish citizenship (and choose to take it up) also retain their UK citizenship, the UK would face a group of approx 5 million people in a neighbouring, foreign state, but who are full British citizens. Having a few million people around the world with dual UK citizenship is one thing; it's quite another to have a country on your doorstep where all (or almost all) of the citizens can also claim all of the rights of UK citizenship. I would prefer it if the UK made special provision to ensure that current Scottish-domiciled UK citizens must choose one nationality or the other.

It''s already happened with the Republic of Ireland. That's the real problem for the UK - all this pish about border guards, barbed wire fences, passports and so on pays no regard to the fact that there is already a precedent when the Republic of Ireland left the UK. You can already pass from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland without a passport and then board a ferry to Scotland or a plane to anywhere else in the UK, again without showing a passport. You can also hold dual citizenship and two passports and even before EU rules about free movement there was never any barrier for free movement between the Republic of Ireland and the UK.

As regards your last sentence, although this may be your preference there's no obvious reason to have to choose a nationality. The White Paper says that you automatically become a Scottish citizen based on residence at the time of independence or place of birth, all of which is logical. Beyond that there is simply no basis at all on which the UK can tell its citizens that its fine to live in any other country in the world and retain their rights to UK citizenship and a UK passport but if they live in Scotland they lose their right to UK citizenship and a UK passport.

Edited September 16, 2014 by neilser

[Third Lanark]

I just had a conversation with a woman at Standard Life when I was raising a query about my small investment. Asked her about Thursday and she said nobody knew what was going to happen but that she was going to vote with a word beginning with 'N..' I responded by saying that if SL moved all its its jobs and services down south I would definitely withdraw my investment and if I had a vote I would respond with a word beginning with 'Y..' That's about all I can do being domiciled in Eng.

[Lion Rampant]

It''s already happened with the Republic of Ireland. That's the real problem for the UK - all this pish about border guards, barbed wire fences, passports and so on pays no regard to the fact that there is already a precedent when the Republic of Ireland left the UK. You can already pass from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland without a passport and then board a ferry to Scotland or a plane to anywhere else in the UK, again without showing a passport. You can also hold dual citizenship and two passports and even before EU rules about free movement there was never any barrier for free movement between the Republic of Ireland and the UK.

I flew from Glasgow to Dublin and back again without having to show my passport. Only needed my driving licence.

On coming back into Glasgow there was nobody at the customs desk.

[Maq]

Multiple passports, totally James Bond.

My faither in law (Irish) has 2 passports - an Irish one and a UK one. Generally he uses his Irish one for travel etc, but the UK one if there is preferable visa requirements, and also for his job (works for the British Council!)

I imagine I'll do the same - hang onto my British one just in case there's any employment issues down here, but generally use my Scottish one

[scoobydoo]

Ireland isn't classed as a foreign country is it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949

. 2(1) – Declared that, even though the Republic of Ireland was no longer a British dominion, it would not be treated as a foreign country for the purposes of British law.

[scoobydoo]

I had two as well. Australian and British. The British one has run out and I'm fucked if I'm getting another.

My son could have three but I never registered his birth with the British Embassay (Motto: Here to Hinder) in Taiwan when he was born. I couldn't put him through the shame.

[Orraloon]

Anybody want cheering up?

Have a vote.

http://noscotland.net/

I know it's childish but I've been smiling since I did it.

92%. No wonder Flure is starting to feel a bit daft.

[neilly71]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=870347176309962

[thorbotnic]

It''s already happened with the Republic of Ireland. That's the real problem for the UK - all this pish about border guards, barbed wire fences, passports and so on pays no regard to the fact that there is already a precedent when the Republic of Ireland left the UK. You can already pass from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland without a passport and then board a ferry to Scotland or a plane to anywhere else in the UK, again without showing a passport. You can also hold dual citizenship and two passports and even before EU rules about free movement there was never any barrier for free movement between the Republic of Ireland and the UK.

As regards your last sentence, although this may be your preference there's no obvious reason to have to choose a nationality. The White Paper says that you automatically become a Scottish citizen based on residence at the time of independence or place of birth, all of which is logical. Beyond that there is simply no basis at all on which the UK can tell its citizens that its fine to live in any other country in the world and retain their rights to UK citizenship and a UK passport but if they live in Scotland they lose their right to UK citizenship and a UK passport.

Living in another country is one thing - taking the citizenship of another country is another. Plenty of states around the world do not allow dual nationality; the UK has, traditionally. For state which do not allow dual citizenship you automatically lose citizenship of that state when you acquire another state's citizenship, so nobody is left stateless.

The UK can do what it wants with regards to its nationality law - this is a fundamental principle of international law. Like I said, generally speaking dual nationality is an anomaly which can simply be ignored as it's on a small-scale basis, but what we would see in Scotland is a huge increase in dual Scottish / British citizens, domiciled outside the UK, but who would still have claim to UK consular / visa services and the rights of citizenship despite not paying anything towards the upkeep of the British state. As a UK citizen, I would take issue at that. If the people of Scotland are choosing not to be part of the UK, then they are choosing not to be part of all that that represents - they should have to choose between which citizenship they want.

[Orraloon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0

this will cheer you up

"Not available in your country" I think MI5 have blocked it coming into Scotland.

[jock strap]

92%. No wonder Flure is starting to feel a bit daft.

It's down to 91.88% !

[Orraloon]

We had 80-100 people at Yes Kelvin planning meeting last night for getting the vote out on Thursday.

I expect this is being replicated right across the country and our feet on the ground have compiled a wealth of information on our voter base over the last 2 years to ensure we now put this into action.

It's time to bring it home!

What population does that area cover?

[AlfieMoon]

What population does that area cover?

No idea actually but I should add that the 80-100 were only the people that were able to make it on the night. There has been far more than that registered to help out on the day but not everyone could come last night.

[Orraloon]

While you're correct that the UK has generally never had a problem with dual nationality, I think that Scottish independence would create an unprecedented situation. Effectively, if all current UK citizens who qualify for Scottish citizenship (and choose to take it up) also retain their UK citizenship, the UK would face a group of approx 5 million people in a neighbouring, foreign state, but who are full British citizens. Having a few million people around the world with dual UK citizenship is one thing; it's quite another to have a country on your doorstep where all (or almost all) of the citizens can also claim all of the rights of UK citizenship. I would prefer it if the UK made special provision to ensure that current Scottish-domiciled UK citizens must choose one nationality or the other.

If all 5 million folk in Scotland applied for a UK passport, the UK treasury would be about £500 million better off. This is the main reason very few folk will go for duel citizenship. The vast majority of folk wont spend an extra £100, or so, just to have a few bits of paper which lie in the bottom of a sock drawer for most of the year. The Duel Citizenship thing is a non issue.

[thorbotnic]

If all 5 million folk in Scotland applied for a UK passport, the UK treasury would be about £500 million better off. This is the main reason very few folk will go for duel citizenship. The vast majority of folk wont spend an extra £100, or so, just to have a few bits of paper which lie in the bottom of a sock drawer for most of the year. The Duel Citizenship thing is a non issue.

Citizenship is not based on whether you apply for a passport or not. We're talking about things like the right to stand and vote in all elections, the right to take up a seat in the HoL. I actually asked a question on the Scottish Govt website about whether UK citizens would be able to stand and vote in all elections in iScotland, but it wasn't answered.

[Orraloon]

It's down to 91.88% !

I felt sorry for them so I voted NO. I do feel a bit dirty now though.

[jockodile]

every time I see this thread title it depresses me, can we change it

[scoobydoo]

Just think it's about george galloways bike halfway down a brae.

Edited September 16, 2014 by scoobydoo

[Orraloon]

The UK can do what it wants with regards to its nationality law - this is a fundamental principle of international law. Like I said, generally speaking dual nationality is an anomaly which can simply be ignored as it's on a small-scale basis, but what we would see in Scotland is a huge increase in dual Scottish / British citizens, domiciled outside the UK, but who would still have claim to UK consular / visa services and the rights of citizenship despite not paying anything towards the upkeep of the British state. As a UK citizen, I would take issue at that. If the people of Scotland are choosing not to be part of the UK, then they are choosing not to be part of all that that represents - they should have to choose between which citizenship they want.

Why do you keep posting pish like this? You have been informed umpteen times that as EU citizens we have the right to use the consular services of any EU country. They have the obligation to help us out and most of them will be very happy to do so. Your nonsense only becomes an issue if the UK choses to leave the EU.

[jockodile]

that's a better image

[wembley67lisbon]

The only people I know who have not even debated it are fife farmers, so keen to get signs in their fields, and on their trailers, in desperate attempts to impress their mates.

Always been wary of them arable boys.

[euan2020]

Living in another country is one thing - taking the citizenship of another country is another. Plenty of states around the world do not allow dual nationality; the UK has, traditionally. For state which do not allow dual citizenship you automatically lose citizenship of that state when you acquire another state's citizenship, so nobody is left stateless.

The UK can do what it wants with regards to its nationality law - this is a fundamental principle of international law. Like I said, generally speaking dual nationality is an anomaly which can simply be ignored as it's on a small-scale basis, but what we would see in Scotland is a huge increase in dual Scottish / British citizens, domiciled outside the UK, but who would still have claim to UK consular / visa services and the rights of citizenship despite not paying anything towards the upkeep of the British state. As a UK citizen, I would take issue at that. If the people of Scotland are choosing not to be part of the UK, then they are choosing not to be part of all that that represents - they should have to choose between which citizenship they want.

are we getting kicked out of the Commonwealth as well ? I personally know Australians who have used British Embassy/Consulate for passport issues to get temp passports to exit contries

[scotlad]

An interesting wee piece here that might calm a few anxieties:

http://emeraldnewsnetwork.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/something-fishy-in-the-scottish-polls/

[EvilScotsman]

Living in another country is one thing - taking the citizenship of another country is another. Plenty of states around the world do not allow dual nationality; the UK has, traditionally. For state which do not allow dual citizenship you automatically lose citizenship of that state when you acquire another state's citizenship, so nobody is left stateless.

The UK can do what it wants with regards to its nationality law - this is a fundamental principle of international law. Like I said, generally speaking dual nationality is an anomaly which can simply be ignored as it's on a small-scale basis, but what we would see in Scotland is a huge increase in dual Scottish / British citizens, domiciled outside the UK, but who would still have claim to UK consular / visa services and the rights of citizenship despite not paying anything towards the upkeep of the British state. As a UK citizen, I would take issue at that. If the people of Scotland are choosing not to be part of the UK, then they are choosing not to be part of all that that represents - they should have to choose between which citizenship they want.

Until the rUK leaves the EU in 2017 this situation would continue. EU citizens are entitled to assistance at any EU consulate.