sbcmfc Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Loosely off the back of the driving licence thread, got a hypothetical question... Say you're driving through Gretna, and see the blue flashing light in the rear view mirror, and realise you had a few shandys last night, and you may still be over the limit. If it takes a mile to find a safe place to pull over, and you get breathalysed in England by police scotland, what's the limit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Loosely off the back of the driving licence thread, got a hypothetical question... Say you're driving through Gretna, and see the blue flashing light in the rear view mirror, and realise you had a few shandys last night, and you may still be over the limit. If it takes a mile to find a safe place to pull over, and you get breathalysed in England by police scotland, what's the limit? If you've been driving in scotland, then police scotland have jurisdiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irnbruman Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I think it would be dodgy in law if you are stopped in England and breathalysed to be in between limits. There is no proof that you were actually over the limit whilst in Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Both seem valid arguments. (I'm presuming neither of you have the definitive answer?) Reasonably far fetched situation anyway, was just wondering. I've actually drank a bit less than I might of on at least 3 occasions over the festive period, so health wise, that's a positive. In fact 4, would've had a bottle of beer with dinner last night, but didn't. Wife works in retail, and she reckons the shops have been quieter in the mornings, even on Boxing Day. Certainly increased awareness and made folk think more about "morning after" driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I think it would be dodgy in law if you are stopped in England and breathalysed to be in between limits. There is no proof that you were actually over the limit whilst in Scotland. There's loads of mythology around this (a similar argument exists around people who think that once they have gone in their home they can't be arrested or prosecuted) but in the circumstances described above (ie blue light following you as you cross the border) then that would generally be seen as 'hot pursuit' and you'd have zero defence. In the real world what would happen is that the evidence of the copper would be that they had reason to pursue you (if the blue light is on you've done something to attract their attention), on stopping you they found you to be over the limit for Scotland but under for England then all they have to prove is that you'd driven in Scotland (probably caught on their cameras but even if not their verbal evidence will generally hold good) & were likely to have been over the limit at the time (very provable in reality). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I think it would be dodgy in law if you are stopped in England and breathalysed to be in between limits. There is no proof that you were actually over the limit whilst in Scotland. Just keep a couple of empties in your glovebox so you can say you'd tanned them after Gretna. Sounds like a Dukes of Hazzard script.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Just keep a couple of empties in your glovebox so you can say you'd tanned them after Gretna. Sounds like a Dukes of Hazzard script.... I know numerous people that have been stopped but they seem to be concentrating on the main routes into the city centre (Maryhill Road, Gallowgate, Cathcart Road and the off ramp of the M74 at Tradeston). Fair enough, but I hear they're also giving cars an MOT and asking folk where they're going. That would just get my back up. Also, everyone I know has been stopped in the morning. Presumably they're just leaving the hardcore maniacs who drink and drive at night to merrily continue on their way. Edited January 2, 2015 by Charlie Endell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euan2020 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 There's loads of mythology around this (a similar argument exists around people who think that once they have gone in their home they can't be arrested or prosecuted) but in the circumstances described above (ie blue light following you as you cross the border) then that would generally be seen as 'hot pursuit' and you'd have zero defence. In the real world what would happen is that the evidence of the copper would be that they had reason to pursue you (if the blue light is on you've done something to attract their attention), on stopping you they found you to be over the limit for Scotland but under for England then all they have to prove is that you'd driven in Scotland (probably caught on their cameras but even if not their verbal evidence will generally hold good) & were likely to have been over the limit at the time (very provable in reality). above is correct - why some folk tan a drink as soon as they are in house, and advise coppers they have been drinking in the house after driving Likely i dont think you would have a defence if they observed you driving in scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie x Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Also, everyone I know has been stopped in the morning. Presumably they're just leaving the hardcore maniacs who drink and drive at night to merrily continue on their way. Wonder what the accident stats are involving drink in the morning compared to night time are? They will probably have them available. Has anybody seen the police doing these mass stops in the evening and at night? It just sounds like the typical actions of House (the police version of Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I know numerous people that have been stopped but they seem to be concentrating on the main routes into the city centre (Maryhill Road, Gallowgate, Cathcart Road and the off ramp of the M74 at Tradeston). Fair enough, but I hear they're also giving cars an MOT and asking folk where they're going. That would just get my back up. Also, everyone I know has been stopped in the morning. Presumably they're just leaving the hardcore maniacs who drink and drive at night to merrily continue on their way. Whilst not wishing to advocate "morning after" drink driving, I completely agree. I know someone who has been stopped 4 times on her way to work in the morning. Are people trying to get to their work after having a drink the night before really the problem they are trying to solve? I'm not saying it's ok, but why not set up these road block type check points at 10pm on an evening, try and catch people who have consciously chosen to have a drink and jump straight in the car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenAngus Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Any stats available on how many people have been found to be over the new limit but under the old limit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Whilst not wishing to advocate "morning after" drink driving, I completely agree. I know someone who has been stopped 4 times on her way to work in the morning. Are people trying to get to their work after having a drink the night before really the problem they are trying to solve? I'm not saying it's ok, but why not set up these road block type check points at 10pm on an evening, try and catch people who have consciously chosen to have a drink and jump straight in the car? That's tantamount to police harassment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 That's tantamount to police harassment! If I had been stopped 4 times I would be putting in a harassment complaint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Any stats available on how many people have been found to be over the new limit but under the old limit? I don't think they will release those stats. In fact they might even deliberately not record them so that they don't have to release them under FOI request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) (a similar argument exists around people who think that once they have gone in their home they can't be arrested or prosecuted) Plenty folk have got off a drunk driving charge based on that technicality. They need to have a bottle of booze open when the cops arrive though and claim to have had a drink as soon as they got in the house. They would probably get done for something else though but it could be the difference between keeping and losing their licence. Edited January 2, 2015 by Orraloon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Plenty folk have got off a drunk driving charge based on that technicality. They need to have a bottle of booze open when the cops arrive though and claim to have had a drink as soon as they got in the house. They would probably get done for something else though but it could be the difference between keeping and losing their licence. Maybe 20 years ago, but pretty much urban myth these days. It's known as the hip flask defence. You might just pull it off with an expensive lawyer & a well qualified scientist in your corner but Google it & you'll struggle to find many recent examples of it being used successfully. The problem is that you are dealing with presumptive law. As a bare minimum you'd need a toxicology report demonstrating the variance on your blood alcohol levels from the drink you claim to have taken in the few moments between arriving home & giving a sample, & the law presumes that any detected levels reflect what was already in your system. It's the same basic law in Scotland as well as England & Wales: http://www.roadtrafficlaw.com/services/hip-flask-defence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Maybe 20 years ago, but pretty much urban myth these days. It's known as the hip flask defence. You might just pull it off with an expensive lawyer & a well qualified scientist in your corner but Google it & you'll struggle to find many recent examples of it being used successfully. The problem is that you are dealing with presumptive law. As a bare minimum you'd need a toxicology report demonstrating the variance on your blood alcohol levels from the drink you claim to have taken in the few moments between arriving home & giving a sample, & the law presumes that any detected levels reflect what was already in your system. It's the same basic law in Scotland as well as England & Wales: http://www.roadtrafficlaw.com/services/hip-flask-defence Aye, it was a while ago right enough. Didn't realise it was that long ago though. I thought I had heard of folk getting off with that defence more recently than 1988. Could be wrong though. Time flies in these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Totally, but the police aren't helping by putting the fear of God into drivers by asking them if they've had as much as a sherry trifle in the previous 48 hours. People should be telling them to themselves, and just give me the test! Cheeky bassas! J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I'm driving into town early tomorrow morning, so wondering if I'll encounter a John Law spot check. Haven't had a pen & ink since before the bells on Hogmanay; 100% confident I'll blow zero if huckled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I'm driving into town early tomorrow morning, so wondering if I'll encounter a John Law spot check. Haven't had a pen & ink since before the bells on Hogmanay; 100% confident I'll blow zero if huckled. Could you give my cousin a lift to her work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Could you give my cousin a lift to her work? No bother, if she lives on the Southside . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 No bother, if she lives on the Southside . You're doing the reverse of her route (where she has been stopped 4 times apparently (I say apparently, as the story came via my mum)). Works in the south side, and drives across from the west. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Maybe if more people ensured personal responsibility when getting behind the wheel then the police wouldn't have to stop people and eventually wouldn't bother as a result of not 'catching' anyone out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstevie007 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Maybe if more people ensured personal responsibility when getting behind the wheel then the police wouldn't have to stop people and eventually wouldn't bother as a result of not 'catching' anyone out. This. A small inconvenience to be honest, and if you've had nothing to drink it'll be quick and painless. However, I do join others in their cynicism about the number of morning stops compared to at night. Morning after drivers trying to get to work are an easy target and won't stop the stupid khunts who roll out the pub at midnight and get in the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jockodile Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 In NSW the police regularly set up random road checks in the evenings. They go by the nickname of booze busters, and are trying to catch folk coming home from nights out. Next day equivalent does occasionally happen, but ive only seen it on public holiday weekends where there is always a crackdown on road stuff and double dermit points are in operation (eg 3pts for speeding becomes 6pts) Morning after drinkers are not seen as the problem here, it is the idiots who drive home from the pub the cops want. NSW has the same limit Scotland now has but there isnt anything like the paranoia on will I be ok in the morning. Some stats would be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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