Indyref 2 (2)

[hampden_loon2878]

i will be shocked if humza reaches the GE, i will be even more shocked if he reaches the holyrood election. i wouldnt be surprised if the greens throw the toys out the pram and a vote of confidence is called in the parliament,, 

[Alibi]

3 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

everyone needs to ask themselves this question. If the SNP are in existence for independence and all policies they peruse should be to get us closer to the goal of independence directly or indirectly, then why would the sturgeonists chase after the GRA when it cost them half their members(at least) hundreds of thousand of voters, msp's,MP'S and thousands of pounds? this isn't just incompetence and when you add in the whole scenario regarding salmond, the answer is staring right at you. i know i bang on about the salmond saga a lot but i just want to add one more thing and that i believe the stitch up goes very deep, not even to a uk level but even crossing into American politics, wild yes!  but i have my reasons to believe this

I have thought that for some time.  The US don't want Trident to be removed.  I believe they are heavily involved in the attempts to prevent indy.  They have long interfered in other countries to suit their own aims (and I'd include the current Gaza situation in that - there are substantial quantities of gas, and possibly oil, off the coast of Gaza and I believe that's probably the real reason that Israel is trying to destroy Gaza completely).  The US would think nothing of interfering in Scotland to suit their world view.

[Malcolm]

19 minutes ago, Alibi said:

I have thought that for some time.  The US don't want Trident to be removed.  I believe they are heavily involved in the attempts to prevent indy.  They have long interfered in other countries to suit their own aims (and I'd include the current Gaza situation in that - there are substantial quantities of gas, and possibly oil, off the coast of Gaza and I believe that's probably the real reason that Israel is trying to destroy Gaza completely).  The US would think nothing of interfering in Scotland to suit their world view.

 

every country will try and use their influence to further their own aims.

 

 

[Malcolm]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

i will be shocked if humza reaches the GE, i will be even more shocked if he reaches the holyrood election. i wouldnt be surprised if the greens throw the toys out the pram and a vote of confidence is called in the parliament,, 

let’s hope he is binned, he is incompetent.  Think there is now a good chance that the snp will lose the next Scottish election too.

[scotlad]

2 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

i will be shocked if humza reaches the GE, i will be even more shocked if he reaches the holyrood election. i wouldnt be surprised if the greens throw the toys out the pram and a vote of confidence is called in the parliament,, 

I hope you're right but I can't see it. You might know differently but I don't detect much sign of any leadership challenge brewing within the party, and despite presiding over a shambles he receives very little criticism or scrutiny in the media. The closest he's come so far came from the rumours (insinuations, really) about his private life, which surfaced a few weeks ago. His dozy deputies, Robison and Sommerville, have been under more pressure, and poor old Michael Matheson, actually one of his more capable minsters, got it tight for weeks, not for his record as a minister but essentially because of roaming charges racked up by his weans!

If the Greens sank the BHA I'd regain some respect for them; at least it'd show some principles. But give up potentially another two and a bit years of ministerial perks?? Nae chance!

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

I have thought that for some time.  The US don't want Trident to be removed.  I believe they are heavily involved in the attempts to prevent indy.  They have long interfered in other countries to suit their own aims (and I'd include the current Gaza situation in that - there are substantial quantities of gas, and possibly oil, off the coast of Gaza and I believe that's probably the real reason that Israel is trying to destroy Gaza completely).  The US would think nothing of interfering in Scotland to suit their world view.

It's highly likely the Americans are working against Scottish independence; they've little to gain from it that springs to mind and, like you say, it would present them with a potential problem with regards to Trident. It's concerning that there are people in and around the SNP involved in US-led "development programmes" and the like, and sadly that includes Kate Forbes, who I otherwise rate.

I reckon all the superpowers are probably, at best, unenthusiastic about the idea of Scotland becoming independent, especially those with shitey human rights records, if for no other reason than it would result in another voice at the UN criticising them.

 

[PapofGlencoe]

25 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I hope you're right but I can't see it. You might know differently but I don't detect much sign of any leadership challenge brewing within the party, and despite presiding over a shambles he receives very little criticism or scrutiny in the media. The closest he's come so far came from the rumours (insinuations, really) about his private life, which surfaced a few weeks ago. His dozy deputies, Robison and Sommerville, have been under more pressure, and poor old Michael Matheson, actually one of his more capable minsters, got it tight for weeks, not for his record as a minister but essentially because of roaming charges racked up by his weans!

If the Greens sank the BHA I'd regain some respect for them; at least it'd show some principles. But give up potentially another two and a bit years of ministerial perks?? Nae chance!

It's highly likely the Americans are working against Scottish independence; they've little to gain from it that springs to mind and, like you say, it would present them with a potential problem with regards to Trident. It's concerning that there are people in and around the SNP involved in US-led "development programmes" and the like, and sadly that includes Kate Forbes, who I otherwise rate.

I reckon all the superpowers are probably, at best, unenthusiastic about the idea of Scotland becoming independent, especially those with shitey human rights records, if for no other reason than it would result in another voice at the UN criticising them.

 

here's a thing.  I once met a Bulgarian who dismissively said London would never let Scotland go.  I was annoyed at the time but the more I think about it, I think she was right.

We have to convince our own people as stage one but this idea they will just roll over and let us have it?  No.  Won't happen.

I think some have forgotten our movement is about breaking up a UN Security council member rather than banning fox hunting or tax bands changes.  It's not a political policy.  It's a national cause and it's unquestionably the most radical position in mainstream British politics.  It is a threat.  Moves afoot to turn it into a policy rather than a live, moving, breathing cause.  

We've been cowered to such an extent we're not even capable of putting independence on a ballot paper for fear of what opponents might say.  The momentum will hopefully come again but we need to start saying what we believe.  If Scots want independence they will have it and make that your position at a General election. 

 

 

[Diamond Scot]

Even though the aim of the SNP is independence, the minute they were elected as a ruling government they also have to govern in the best interests of the country.

I agree that the gender recognition issue and some other "progressive" polices have been an error however when the SNP have been in power for a number of years, they need to first show that they are a competent government but after that they need to show that an independent Scotland would differ from the rUK. A good way of doing that is by implementing progressive polices that in particular are vote winners with the younger generations.

In this sense I can understand why not every action they did was safe or clearly to further the cause.

[Alibi]

13 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Even though the aim of the SNP is independence, the minute they were elected as a ruling government they also have to govern in the best interests of the country.

I agree that the gender recognition issue and some other "progressive" polices have been an error however when the SNP have been in power for a number of years, they need to first show that they are a competent government but after that they need to show that an independent Scotland would differ from the rUK. A good way of doing that is by implementing progressive polices that in particular are vote winners with the younger generations.

In this sense I can understand why not every action they did was safe or clearly to further the cause.

Policies that lose votes by the barrowload should be avoided. The GRR stuff is extremely unpopular with the general public, in particular the self-ID bit which is an affront to scientific fact.  A sensible path could have been worked out but instead Nicola Sturgeon bullied her way through - and then fled the scene when she talked herself into a position where she couldn't say if a man was a man or a woman.  I wish someone would ask her if the damage she caused to the indy movement was worth it.

We need a Ctrl Alt Delete and build back stronger. 

[Ally Bongo]

15 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Policies that lose votes by the barrowload should be avoided. The GRR stuff is extremely unpopular with the general public, in particular the self-ID bit which is an affront to scientific fact.  A sensible path could have been worked out but instead Nicola Sturgeon bullied her way through - and then fled the scene when she talked herself into a position where she couldn't say if a man was a man or a woman.  I wish someone would ask her if the damage she caused to the indy movement was worth it.

We need a Ctrl Alt Delete and build back stronger. 

The massive issue about GRR is that it is easily attacked and turned into a boogie man

When you are able to defend a policy that the public easily understand is one thing

But when you are trying to defend the GRR and can't answer what a woman is then you are fucked

You have to really, seriously, ask yourself who's idea this was and why no cunt amongst the SNP "Independence" strategists tried to hold it back

Maybe they were afraid of being accused as Terfs or Bigots but if Sturgeon really had Independence as her priority she would have binned it

Aaid will deny this

[Diamond Scot]

28 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Policies that lose votes by the barrowload should be avoided. The GRR stuff is extremely unpopular with the general public, in particular the self-ID bit which is an affront to scientific fact.  A sensible path could have been worked out but instead Nicola Sturgeon bullied her way through - and then fled the scene when she talked herself into a position where she couldn't say if a man was a man or a woman.  I wish someone would ask her if the damage she caused to the indy movement was worth it.

We need a Ctrl Alt Delete and build back stronger. 

Totally agree. My post was more in responce to the point that everything SNP do should be geared towards independence. Sometimes a government need to take unpopular choices in order to govern.

Banning smoking in pubs, minimum alcohol pricing etc

The big problem with the GRR is that its too easy for opponents to spread misinformation about it. For example a lot was made out of male abusers gaining access to rape centres by claiming they are a women now etc however there has always been and was proposed to continue with a clause allowing centres to refuse entry if they had any concerns etc.

Another big issue is whats happening in schools. A quick way to lose votes is to make parents think they are losing control over the raising of their kids. Rightly or wrongly thats where we are at with alot of peoples views towards the SNP.

[StirlingEgg]

8 hours ago, phart said:

At 125k a year the difference is £3106.30 : source HMRC calculators

at 75k it is 2106.30

at 49k it is just over 1300

I think one of the reasons why you have such outlandish opinions Malcolm is because all your logic is predicated on your own wild imagings instead of reality, or as they say in computer science "shite in =shite out"

Different taxation rates will of course be a political topic. However it has to be framed rationally and using figures that are easily obtainable otherwise one can only conclude either utter incompetence or not a good faith argument.

I thought the surprise lower inflation figure was supposed to be mainly due to petrol prices? Seems a bit daft to then get carried away about lowering tax levels based on one erratic commodity. It feels like only a matter of weeks ago where petrol was about 20p more a litre. Didn't the forecourts get their fingers rapped for having unjustified high prices and that's why they've been lower? I'm just trying to clarify things based on what I remember from the news...

I'd rather taxes were at a level to support essential services but then again it's clear the UK govt merely have their fingers in the till so you can see why they're unpopular. It's not just about how much we pay. The UK govt haven't been investing properly for years as it is so why on earth would anyone celebrate a cut to the amount available? 🤔 

Can't remember if I saw this quote on here but think it's true:

"It’s despicable that tax has become, since Thatcher’s day, an election bribe. Labour should start reminding the electorate that it’s to raise revenue to pay for essential services"

[Alibi]

5 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Totally agree. My post was more in responce to the point that everything SNP do should be geared towards independence. Sometimes a government need to take unpopular choices in order to govern.

Banning smoking in pubs, minimum alcohol pricing etc

The big problem with the GRR is that its too easy for opponents to spread misinformation about it. For example a lot was made out of male abusers gaining access to rape centres by claiming they are a women now etc however there has always been and was proposed to continue with a clause allowing centres to refuse entry if they had any concerns etc.

Another big issue is whats happening in schools. A quick way to lose votes is to make parents think they are losing control over the raising of their kids. Rightly or wrongly thats where we are at with alot of peoples views towards the SNP.

The big problem is mainly with the concept of self-ID.  Sturgeon insisted that "transwomen are women" when that is just not true, right down to chromosome level as Robert Winston pointed out.  If you base a policy on a lie, people are going to object.  And you end up with the illogical mobius strip where everyone is Schroedinger's human.  Any politician worth their salt should have had nothing to do with self ID, but so many were desperate to be seen as wokey, not realising they were lauding the emperor's new clothes. and now the SNP are holding the baby despite Labour also backing it, and the LibDems too.  Stupidity, malice or naivety?  You decide.

[Hertsscot]

53 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Any politician worth their salt should have had nothing to do with self ID, but so many were desperate to be seen as wokey, not realising they were lauding the emperor's new clothes. and now the SNP are holding the baby despite Labour also backing it, and the LibDems too.  Stupidity, malice or naivety?  You decide.

Iirc what the SNP/Greens were proposing was not dissimilar to what May's Government was trying to bring in. Johnson reversed Tory policy, whether for honest reasons or just to stoke a culture war, who knows. Starmer also eventually realised it was a vote loser so did another of his U-turns. Personally I think the proposed legislation was flawed and think the SNP leadership, though possibly genuine in their convictions, were extremely naive. Wings over Scotland had been warning about this ages beforehand.

[hampden_loon2878]

when i said that the GRA was going to turn into a shit show, i was dismissed and even belittled not for the first time, there seems to be a trend. i have been proven right that the policy has massivly damaged the independence debate and it didnt just disapear into the back ground..... 

[hampden_loon2878]

Scotland's net migration from rest of the UK continues to grow | The National

 

it will be interesting to see the break down of the figures actually contribute to Scottish society,, my guess is a very low percentage adding more to the burden of an aging society and housing availability 

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

when i said that the GRA was going to turn into a shit show, i was dismissed and even belittled not for the first time, there seems to be a trend. i have been proven right that the policy has massivly damaged the independence debate and it didnt just disapear into the back ground..... 

I have to disagree there. Polls on independence has not seen a magical evaporation in support for independence. The polls have remained much the same throughout the GRA debate - before and after it. Take a look at the polls.

The GRA Bill turned into a shit show because the Westminster government got involved. There are many countries around the world that have similar GRA laws and are happy, content countries with no problems because of it. Perhaps they just have a better mental capacity/maturity to deal with it.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[Hertsscot]

23 hours ago, Malcolm said:

what about at £150k a year? I believe that the difference is £6k - that is the reported figure.  That is before any further tax cuts from uk gov.

I think the phrase you're looking for is 'tax bribes' from the UK Government. Making the well off, better off, whilst making cuts in vital public services, many of them that are on their knees, in order to get some headlines in the Daily Mail.

 

[vanderark14]

1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

I think the phrase you're looking for is 'tax bribes' from the UK Government. Making the well off, better off, whilst making cuts in vital public services, many of them that are on their knees, in order to get some headlines in the Daily Mail.

 

And those high earners with the extra dosh in their pocket would be thr first to complain about public services not being adequate 

[hampden_loon2878]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I have to disagree there. Polls on independence has not seen a magical evaporation in support for independence. The polls have remained much the same throughout the GRA debate - before and after it. Take a look at the polls.

The GRA Bill turned into a shit show because the Westminster government got involved. There are many countries around the world that have similar GRA laws and are happy, content countries with no problems because of it. Perhaps they just have a better mental capacity/maturity to deal with it.

If the snp are a train wreck, how do you figure we get another referendum?

[Caledonian Craig]

27 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

If the snp are a train wreck, how do you figure we get another referendum?

I have said it before many times. We are done up in chains Harry Houdini could not get out of. We have had one full referendum in 300+ years and that was only because Cameron allowed it so even Salmond had no way of getting one without Westminster's say so. Surprised that penny has not dropped with you yet. The SNP being a car crash or not is not going to make an iota of difference.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[hampden_loon2878]

20 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I have said it before many times. We are done up in chains Harry Houdini could not get out of. We have had one full referendum in 300+ years and that was only because Cameron allowed it so even Salmond had no way of getting one without Westminster's say so. Surprised that penny has not dropped with you yet. The SNP being a car crash or not is not going to make an iota of difference.

the next step is the scrapping of holyrood, its coming. if there is not a strong SNP then this is a real possibility,, could this have been the plan all along

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

the next step is the scrapping of holyrood, its coming. if there is not a strong SNP then this is a real possibility,, could this have been the plan all along

Quite possible. After all the Tories were totally against devolution.

[Hertsscot]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I have said it before many times. We are done up in chains Harry Houdini could not get out of. 

Although more optimistically several countries that were part of the British Empire would have felt like that they were in that situation but have since escaped the clutches of Perfidious Albion. 

[Alibi]

2 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

the next step is the scrapping of holyrood, its coming. if there is not a strong SNP then this is a real possibility,, could this have been the plan all along

I think if they try that, they are asking for a significant degree of civil unrest.  Bear in mind that we had to have a specific vote to get our parliament; removing it without a specific vote to test our agreement would pretty much be an act of war.

[vanderark14]

42 minutes ago, Alibi said:

I think if they try that, they are asking for a significant degree of civil unrest.  Bear in mind that we had to have a specific vote to get our parliament; removing it without a specific vote to test our agreement would pretty much be an act of war.

I'm starting to think civil unrest is what they want.