Indyref 2 (2)

[ParisInAKilt]

48 minutes ago, aaid said:

The problem with that post is all it does is criticise and complain but suggests no alternative.  

Alternative to what? It’s not really that type of article, at least that’s how I read it. This isn’t a difference of tactics or policy etc, it’s the snp basically treating people like mugs and telling them what they want to hear. 

[Freeedom]

3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I interpreted you saying    ‘but they're not going to put 2 and 2 together if we cannot join the dots and explain to people with confidence that an independent Scotland can do things better as explaining to people how we make Scotland more successful than the Uk. People see this differently to each other hence me saying joining the dots would be difficult . The policies that you want will be different to that of Loon so they need to be careful or they will alienate a portion of the electorate. Pretty much what some are saying is happening just now with O&G for example.
I do agree they need to be far more forthright in highlighting the corruption in Westminster versus the Scottish parliament. Even the bloody STV voting up here is far fairer but its amazing the people who have no idea what the difference is to FPTP.  If nothing comes of this missing £600k with regards to arrests they should be screaming from the rooftops about the double standards. 

On the Euro, this is one area that I have particular interest as it is my line of work. To my knowledge joining the Euro is the least attractive to the SNP,  any statements made so far have suggested sticking with the pound for a period and/or having a Scottish currency seem to be preferable. Adopting the Euro is not a necessity of rejoining the EU despite what unionists try to spin. 
 

 

 

Whether its policy I agree with or Loon agrees with is mostly irrelevant, what's most important is that the policy is credible and can be evidenced. The SNP have themselves tied in knots over their own policy positions and the process of having a referendum itself, all of their own doing. They don't know how to get out of the mess they've created, yet they'll still dangle the carrot of independence to their support (because what else are they supposed to do?)

The whole party needs a complete reboot but what its members did instead was vote for a continuity, careerist candidate who just wants the privilege of being able to call himself first minister. Perhaps the whole house of cards will come crumbling down and we can start again, but I find it difficult to see how the party actually move forward. Nicola Sturgeon was the worst thing to ever happen to the independence movement.

[aaid]

56 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Alternative to what? It’s not really that type of article, at least that’s how I read it. This isn’t a difference of tactics or policy etc, it’s the snp basically treating people like mugs and telling them what they want to hear. 

No it’s just Robin McAlpine bleating on and complaining.  Clearly Robin thinks that the SNP should be listening to Robin.

A guy who hasn’t said anything worth listening to since 2014

[Alibi]

On 8/4/2023 at 11:21 AM, PapofGlencoe said:

the thing is the SNP did well when they talked about the legislation that has undoubtedly been better than the UK.  Being competent was the big sell 10 years ago.  It can be again.

tuition fees, bus pass for kids, rent controls, hospital parking charges scrapped, child payments, progressive tax etc etc.  Wish they would start talking these up rather than going down culture war rabbit holes most people either roll their eyes at or take extreme positions on.  If i was Yousaf i'd ask all of his cohort to focus on these and do their best to ignore everything else.

I think the labour line of "stop focussing on issues of the past, it's time for a change of both governments" is a stronger message than trying to blame Scottish Labour for things out of their control.  unfortunately.  i dont think anyone seriously blames Sarwar for brexit and I dont think they'll suffer consequences for it.

Nobody is blaming Sarwar for Brexit - I am fairly sure he opposed it.  however Sir Starmer has now aligned Labour with Brexit and a load of other stuff, and it is not credible for Sarwar to go into an election saying he opposes policies adopted by London Labour.  He may still oppose Brexit, and the other stuff like the 2 child cap etc., but his problem is that he has to do what he's told by London.  Imagine if the SNP had a half decent leader, someone more like Salmond, Labour would be getting torn to shreds every time they tried to pretend they're different from London Labour.

Sarwar can pose all he likes but if Labour get in, he'll do exactly what he's told by Starmer. I know it, you know it, a'body knows it.  Yet the corrupt, twisted MSM pretend that Labour in Scotland offer something different.  Only absolute mugs believe that old lie.

[TDYER63]

39 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

Whether its policy I agree with or Loon agrees with is mostly irrelevant, what's most important is that the policy is credible and can be evidenced. The SNP have themselves tied in knots over their own policy positions and the process of having a referendum itself, all of their own doing. They don't know how to get out of the mess they've created, yet they'll still dangle the carrot of independence to their support (because what else are they supposed to do?)

The whole party needs a complete reboot but what its members did instead was vote for a continuity, careerist candidate who just wants the privilege of being able to call himself first minister. Perhaps the whole house of cards will come crumbling down and we can start again, but I find it difficult to see how the party actually move forward. Nicola Sturgeon was the worst thing to ever happen to the independence movement.

I dont think it is irrelevant. If you are going to stipulate policy of any kind and prove it’s credibility  you need to ensure the actual policy is supported by the majority of people or it doesn’t matter how credible it is.  That aside I agree with what you are saying .

Not all SNP supporters/members however are simply still voting for them because of independence. For example, If I thought they were so totally incompetent there is no way I would vote for them regardless of independence. You cannot prioritise independence over the state of the country. At the moment I think you are absolutely right and the SNP have tied themselves in knots. They need someone to unpick the knots and get things back on track. Who that will be is anyones guess but they cannot afford to let the knots tighten further. I did not vote for Humza and cannot see him even managing to get the SNP back on track never mind deliver independence. 

However, if I were to ask myself ‘ could Labour or the Tories run Scotland better ?’ the answer would be ‘No’.  If I were to ask myself would Labour or the Tories do what is best for Scotland if they were in power?’ The answer would be an emphatic ‘No’ and one of the main reasons I want independence. 

So, the dilemma I have is how to get the SNP back on track because for me Alba are irrelevant in terms of being a big enough force to take over from the SNP. Alex Salmond will never in a million years win people over , shrewd politician as he is he is just not likeable to the majority of folk. It does piss me off though when the SNP dismiss him. He may be arrogant with a degree of self interest but what politician isnt , and he speaks a lot of sense. 

Who would you have in charge? 

[ParisInAKilt]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

No it’s just Robin McAlpine bleating on and complaining.  Clearly Robin thinks that the SNP should be listening to Robin.

A guy who hasn’t said anything worth listening to since 2014

Haha of course 

[Hertsscot]

3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I dont think it is irrelevant. If you are going to stipulate policy of any kind and prove it’s credibility  you need to ensure the actual policy is supported by the majority of people or it doesn’t matter how credible it is.  That aside I agree with what you are saying .

Not all SNP supporters/members however are simply still voting for them because of independence. For example, If I thought they were so totally incompetent there is no way I would vote for them regardless of independence. You cannot prioritise independence over the state of the country. At the moment I think you are absolutely right and the SNP have tied themselves in knots. They need someone to unpick the knots and get things back on track. Who that will be is anyones guess but they cannot afford to let the knots tighten further. I did not vote for Humza and cannot see him even managing to get the SNP back on track never mind deliver independence. 

However, if I were to ask myself ‘ could Labour or the Tories run Scotland better ?’ the answer would be ‘No’.  If I were to ask myself would Labour or the Tories do what is best for Scotland if they were in power?’ The answer would be an emphatic ‘No’ and one of the main reasons I want independence. 

So, the dilemma I have is how to get the SNP back on track because for me Alba are irrelevant in terms of being a big enough force to take over from the SNP. Alex Salmond will never in a million years win people over , shrewd politician as he is he is just not likeable to the majority of folk. It does piss me off though when the SNP dismiss him. He may be arrogant with a degree of self interest but what politician isnt , and he speaks a lot of sense. 

Who would you have in charge? 

There's a bit of feeling that Alex should stand for the Hamilton and Rutherglen by-election. if there's a seat to be won this is as about as realistic as possible. If he won, massive boost for Alba (and indy). If a big hitter like Alex can't win, then with all due respect (and I have sympathies with Alba), then they do need to ask what they're doing and whether it's worth continuing at least as far as contesting Westminster seats are concerned where FPTP means they have less chance of being elected.

[Ally Bongo]

22 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

There's a bit of feeling that Alex should stand for the Hamilton and Rutherglen by-election. if there's a seat to be won this is as about as realistic as possible. If he won, massive boost for Alba (and indy). If a big hitter like Alex can't win, then with all due respect (and I have sympathies with Alba), then they do need to ask what they're doing and whether it's worth continuing at least as far as contesting Westminster seats are concerned where FPTP means they have less chance of being elected.

The other side of the coin, which is more likely, is that all the Indy Parties stand back and let the SNP stand alone

[Hertsscot]

22 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

The other side of the coin, which is more likely, is that all the Indy Parties stand back and let the SNP stand alone

Then where do Alba come into the equation? I see the point of them standing for Holyrood where they could win seats but for Westminster all they'll do due to FPTP is split the vote (like the Greens have done in the past).

[Hertsscot]

Just now, Hertsscot said:

Then where do Alba come into the equation? I see the point of them standing for Holyrood where they could win seats but for Westminster all they'll do due to FPTP is split the vote (like the Greens have done in the past).

I should probably add that Alex standing would at least push arguments for indy to the front of the campaign.

[Ally Bongo]

10 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Then where do Alba come into the equation? I see the point of them standing for Holyrood where they could win seats but for Westminster all they'll do due to FPTP is split the vote (like the Greens have done in the past).

As far as i'm aware Alba are not standing anyone at present - i think they wrote to Yousaf and gave him a deadline to agree to a Scotland United candidate which he will obviously rubber

Even when the deadline passes i am still not sure Alba will stand as it would give the SNP the perfect oportunity to blame them for , as you say, splitting the vote

[Hertsscot]

Thanks. Is Alba strategy at present only to stand at Holyrood? I know there's been talk of a Scotland United candidate but realistically I can't see that happening. If Alba did put up a candidate and put in a good showing at H&R it might boost that idea but at the minute they're so far behind the SNP that it's nonsensical.

[Alibi]

4 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I dont think it is irrelevant. If you are going to stipulate policy of any kind and prove it’s credibility  you need to ensure the actual policy is supported by the majority of people or it doesn’t matter how credible it is.  That aside I agree with what you are saying .

Not all SNP supporters/members however are simply still voting for them because of independence. For example, If I thought they were so totally incompetent there is no way I would vote for them regardless of independence. You cannot prioritise independence over the state of the country. At the moment I think you are absolutely right and the SNP have tied themselves in knots. They need someone to unpick the knots and get things back on track. Who that will be is anyones guess but they cannot afford to let the knots tighten further. I did not vote for Humza and cannot see him even managing to get the SNP back on track never mind deliver independence. 

However, if I were to ask myself ‘ could Labour or the Tories run Scotland better ?’ the answer would be ‘No’.  If I were to ask myself would Labour or the Tories do what is best for Scotland if they were in power?’ The answer would be an emphatic ‘No’ and one of the main reasons I want independence. 

So, the dilemma I have is how to get the SNP back on track because for me Alba are irrelevant in terms of being a big enough force to take over from the SNP. Alex Salmond will never in a million years win people over , shrewd politician as he is he is just not likable to the majority of folk. It does piss me off though when the SNP dismiss him. He may be arrogant with a degree of self interest but what politician isn't , and he speaks a lot of sense. 

Who would you have in charge? 

Pretty much sums up my own view.  Although Salmond was innocent of all charges, enough of the mud thrown at him by the MSM will stick.  Crazy when you think how ridiculous most of the charges were.  I can't see Alba becoming mainstream in the near future, despite their activism and enthusiasm.  We need to recover the SNP from the control of the folk who seem hell bent on making them unelectable.  Certainly, Yousaf is a dead man walking as far as leadership is concerned. Utterly hopeless, unpopular, clueless.

[Ally Bongo]

43 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Thanks. Is Alba strategy at present only to stand at Holyrood? I know there's been talk of a Scotland United candidate but realistically I can't see that happening. If Alba did put up a candidate and put in a good showing at H&R it might boost that idea but at the minute they're so far behind the SNP that it's nonsensical.

Initially standing for Holyrood only was the policy so as not to damage the SNP in FPTP elections

It looks as though that might change with the Rutherglen & Hamilton West by election - not convinced though

https://www.albaparty.org/a_single_scotland_united_independence_candidate

They have delayed a decision on whether to field an ALBA candidate until the 26th August to allow Humza Yousaf to respond to their unity initiative. However, in the meantime they have set the next full ALBA National Council for that date in Rutherglen Town Hall and put in motion all preparations for standing in the election.

Speaking last night after the meeting of the Alba Party National Executive Alex Salmond said;

“The SNP are acting as if they had a political death wish. As things stand there could be at least four independence supporting candidates cutting each others throats in a first past the post election.

Meanwhile the SNP is weakened by financial scandal and an indifferent Government record. These are hardly the best circumstances in which to fight a by-election which is why the bookies have Labour as overwhelming 9-1 on favourites to gain the seat.

There are enough pro-independence supporters in Rutherglen and Hamilton West to win any election but only with a single Scotland United candidate and fought on the overarching issue of securing an independence mandate at the next election.

Humza Yousaf has it in his gift to galvanise independence supporters with a decisive move of unity of purpose and action. That is a much better option for Scotland than presenting the by-election on a platter to Sir Keir Starmer.” 

[hampden_loon2878]

20 hours ago, Freeedom said:

Whether its policy I agree with or Loon agrees with is mostly irrelevant, what's most important is that the policy is credible and can be evidenced. The SNP have themselves tied in knots over their own policy positions and the process of having a referendum itself, all of their own doing. They don't know how to get out of the mess they've created, yet they'll still dangle the carrot of independence to their support (because what else are they supposed to do?)

The whole party needs a complete reboot but what its members did instead was vote for a continuity, careerist candidate who just wants the privilege of being able to call himself first minister. Perhaps the whole house of cards will come crumbling down and we can start again, but I find it difficult to see how the party actually move forward. Nicola Sturgeon was the worst thing to ever happen to the independence movement.

Completely agree with you there

[hampden_loon2878]

19 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I dont think it is irrelevant. If you are going to stipulate policy of any kind and prove it’s credibility  you need to ensure the actual policy is supported by the majority of people or it doesn’t matter how credible it is.  That aside I agree with what you are saying .

Not all SNP supporters/members however are simply still voting for them because of independence. For example, If I thought they were so totally incompetent there is no way I would vote for them regardless of independence. You cannot prioritise independence over the state of the country. At the moment I think you are absolutely right and the SNP have tied themselves in knots. They need someone to unpick the knots and get things back on track. Who that will be is anyones guess but they cannot afford to let the knots tighten further. I did not vote for Humza and cannot see him even managing to get the SNP back on track never mind deliver independence. 

However, if I were to ask myself ‘ could Labour or the Tories run Scotland better ?’ the answer would be ‘No’.  If I were to ask myself would Labour or the Tories do what is best for Scotland if they were in power?’ The answer would be an emphatic ‘No’ and one of the main reasons I want independence. 

So, the dilemma I have is how to get the SNP back on track because for me Alba are irrelevant in terms of being a big enough force to take over from the SNP. Alex Salmond will never in a million years win people over , shrewd politician as he is he is just not likeable to the majority of folk. It does piss me off though when the SNP dismiss him. He may be arrogant with a degree of self interest but what politician isnt , and he speaks a lot of sense. 

Who would you have in charge? 

Personally I would have KF or Stephen Flynn. 

[hampden_loon2878]

15 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

The other side of the coin, which is more likely, is that all the Indy Parties stand back and let the SNP stand alone

The SNP need to realise how pissed off its voters are so IMO indy parties shouldn’t stand back until realism sets into the snp

[scotlad]

15 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

As far as i'm aware Alba are not standing anyone at present - i think they wrote to Yousaf and gave him a deadline to agree to a Scotland United candidate which he will obviously rubber

Even when the deadline passes i am still not sure Alba will stand as it would give the SNP the perfect oportunity to blame them for , as you say, splitting the vote

I've heard the ISP - who really are a micro-party - are standing a candidate, which could be disastrous if the vote is close.

[scotlad]

15 hours ago, Alibi said:

Pretty much sums up my own view.  Although Salmond was innocent of all charges, enough of the mud thrown at him by the MSM will stick.  Crazy when you think how ridiculous most of the charges were.  I can't see Alba becoming mainstream in the near future, despite their activism and enthusiasm.  We need to recover the SNP from the control of the folk who seem hell bent on making them unelectable.  Certainly, Yousaf is a dead man walking as far as leadership is concerned. Utterly hopeless, unpopular, clueless.

I think the relatively easy ride he's enjoyed in the press so far speaks volumes: ever since he took over, the party's polling has gone down-the-way - exactly the direction any unionist or unionist-controlled organisation would want the SNP to go. For that reason, unless there's an internal coup I can't see him going anywhere anytime soon.

Yousaf could turn out to be, at the very best, a competent administrator, but the idea of him leading us to independence is laughable.

 

[hampden_loon2878]

43 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I've heard the ISP - who really are a micro-party - are standing a candidate, which could be disastrous if the vote is close.

It’s not gonna be close, I can put my house on it 

[hampden_loon2878]

35 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I think the relatively easy ride he's enjoyed in the press so far speaks volumes: ever since he took over, the party's polling has gone down-the-way - exactly the direction any unionist or unionist-controlled organisation would want the SNP to go. For that reason, unless there's an internal coup I can't see him going anywhere anytime soon.

Yousaf could turn out to be, at the very best, a competent administrator, but the idea of him leading us to independence is laughable.

 

So it’s salmonds fault that the snp polling has gone down, nothing to do with the train wreck that sturgeon has created no? 

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

So it’s salmonds fault that the snp polling has gone down, nothing to do with the train wreck that sturgeon has created no? 

Where’s he even mentioned Salmond?

[hampden_loon2878]

12 minutes ago, aaid said:

Where’s he even mentioned Salmond?

Sorry picked the thread up wrong, apologies @scotlad

[PapofGlencoe]

by no means would a good old leaflet do the trick but I cant remember the last time we received any marketing from the SNP or pro-independence for that matter.  You used to get more 20 years ago than you do now.  I don't know how that is possible given the uptick in subs.  would it not have been a good idea to re-assemble a joint scotland independence campaign purely to bombard people with material and billboards to keep the issue at least visible.  i recall hearing a certain journalist aghast at the Yes posters and visibility years ago as a real threat.

In catalonia they have the national assembly separate to the parties.  There are not loads of ideas to take from their campagin but, to me, this is one of them.

I was listening to the founder of Saatchi and Saatchi the other day and it got me thinking the SNP need a rebrand.  

Give us ten reasons for independence and blanket market every home Scotland.  How can CR Smith do it and we can't haha.

 

[scotlad]

4 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Sorry picked the thread up wrong, apologies @scotlad

Nae bother.

5 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

It’s not gonna be close, I can put my house on it 

I'm still not so sure, but if you're right, the SNP truly are in a bad place.  I mean, have you seen the wee dweeb that Labour are fielding?  If they can't at the very least run him close then they're in trouble.