Indyref 2 (2)

[aaid]

3 minutes ago, Auchinyell Sox Change said:

ah okay thanks for the clarification mate

do you sport a pair by any chance ?

I do but that's due to being overweight and unfit rather than hormones.

Good to see where you come from though.

[hampden_loon2878]

When you see independence supporters like Jim spence considering his stance on independence over the nutters in charge of the snp, then you know we are in trouble 

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

48 minutes ago, Auchinyell Sox Change said:

am glad you said that ; as i'd thought they done something to the water since i left in 2006 ....

was actually having a heated debate with the other half at weekend re all the nonsense thats being forced upon us now ; i was citing the case of the teacher in canada with the size Z ? fake breasts ; and how that would affect the kids etc etc

the pendulum is swinging so far to the left , and people wonder why there is so many right wing nut jobs out there now

polarization express

i should add ; that coincidentally talked about gender change ; or whatever the term is now , coincidentally the bill being on the cards this week - aside from the lowering of age from 18 to 16 ; the bigger issue seems to be the lowering of 2 years to 3mths ? for living in that body it seems

at least they can raise the income tax again to deal with all the reversal procedures

[Malcolm]

4 minutes ago, Auchinyell Sox Change said:

i should add ; that coincidentally talked about gender change ; or whatever the term is now , coincidentally the bill being on the cards this week - aside from the lowering of age from 18 to 16 ; the bigger issue seems to be the lowering of 2 years to 3mths ? for living in that body it seems

at least they can raise the income tax again to deal with all the reversal procedures

fuck them.  If they are stupid enough to get it done they can pay for it themselves if they want a reversal.

cosmetic surgery shouldn’t be done on the nhs anyway in the first place!

[Squirrelhumper]

45 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

When you see independence supporters like Jim spence considering his stance on independence over the nutters in charge of the snp, then you know we are in trouble 

Spencer is a fanny.  He prefer the nutters in charge of the UK?

[Squirrelhumper]

56 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

That can’t be right, some on here say nobody gives a shit about it, bunch of space cadets 

The teachers etc who deal with kids that I know defo care. 

[TDYER63]

19 minutes ago, Auchinyell Sox Change said:

i should add ; that coincidentally talked about gender change ; or whatever the term is now , coincidentally the bill being on the cards this week - aside from the lowering of age from 18 to 16 ; the bigger issue seems to be the lowering of 2 years to 3mths ? for living in that body it seems

at least they can raise the income tax again to deal with all the reversal procedures

I am not really keeping up to date with this at all  enough to comment on all of this but on these particular points my understanding was that this change from 2 years to 3 months is purely to obtain a gender recognition certificate. Ie , treatment etc has/ may have already taken place and its purely to formally establish the fact the person has changed gender ( apologies if I am not using the correct terminology). 

On the 16/ 18 yr old issue , personally I dont think you can tell someone they are mature enough to get married and have the mental and financial responsibility of having and bringing up a child yet they are not mature enough to recognise that they are questioning their own gender.  Plus at 16 yr old you are deemed mature enough to join the army and the responsibility that brings .

Happy to stand corrected on any of this because, as I said, I am not aware of all the facts and its clearly extremely controversial. 

[PapofGlencoe]

What I dont understand is the words bigotry being thrown around when it's a complicated topic people haven't dealt with until 5 minutes ago.

I suspect little change in the short term but there are issues of sporting integrity and 16 year old shouldnt be making these decisions for me.  

Even the idea of someone having a certificate, surely all that means is theyre different from real women that don't need one? Hows that equal? It's all confusing.  

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

What I dont understand is the words bigotry being thrown around when it's a complicated topic people haven't dealt with until 5 minutes ago.

This has been going on for six fucking years, its probably the most consulted upon act that the Scottish Parliament has dealt with.  At the last minute people are coming in behaving like experts who don't understand what the act does and doesn't do.   

 

[PapofGlencoe]

6 minutes ago, aaid said:

This has been going on for six fucking years, its probably the most consulted upon act that the Scottish Parliament has dealt with.  At the last minute people are coming in behaving like experts who don't understand what the act does and doesn't do.   

 

You don't need to be an expert to have a view 16 year olds shouldn't be making these decisions. Whatever an expert is on this.

Most people haven't been following it much until now and some don't like what they're hearing. Even if we think some of it is overblown.  I just read the BBC article by James Cook which seemed to highlight reasonable issues of concern.

Bad law can have unintended consequences.  We've seen it recently in Spain where good intentions caused legal problems.

[Malcolm]

9 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

You don't need to be an expert to have a view 16 year olds shouldn't be making these decisions. Whatever an expert is on this.

Most people haven't been following it much until now and some don't like what they're hearing. Even if we think some of it is overblown.  I just read the BBC article by James Cook which seemed to highlight reasonable issues of concern.

Bad law can have unintended consequences.  We've seen it recently in Spain where good intentions caused legal problems.

16 year olds should be nowhere near this… absolute insanity.

[aaid]

5 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

You don't need to be an expert to have a view 16 year olds shouldn't be making these decisions. Whatever an expert is on this.

Most people haven't been following it much until now and some don't like what they're hearing. Even if we think some of it is overblown.  I just read the BBC article by James Cook which seemed to highlight reasonable issues of concern.

Bad law can have unintended consequences.  We've seen it recently in Spain where good intentions caused legal problems.

It is not a simple case.  It draws into the light the issues that happen when you have conflicting and competing rights.

It first came to my attention around 2-3 years ago and it took me a long time to come to a conclusion as to what my view was - coming in at the last minute and hoping to understand the bill is unrealistic - particularly when there is so much misinformation flying around.

 

[aaid]

Ash Regan committing career hari-kari here.

[PapofGlencoe]

3 minutes ago, aaid said:

It is not a simple case.  It draws into the light the issues that happen when you have conflicting and competing rights.

It first came to my attention around 2-3 years ago and it took me a long time to come to a conclusion as to what my view was - coming in at the last minute and hoping to understand the bill is unrealistic - particularly when there is so much misinformation flying around.

 

Agree which is why throwing bigotry about as an insult is not something I agree with.  Looks to me like there are reasonable issues here to be grappled with, most of which were not really understood back in 2004 which is apparently when the whole concept was first broached. 

It'll get passed and I hope it works out for everyone.  Seems clear enough to me people should live how they want but deleting facts of birth?  Seems a bit mad to me but as long as it harms noone, not sure the problem.  Other than shouldn't law be factual above all else?  Who knows, as long as there are no unintended consequences, not a hill I'd die on. 

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

15 minutes ago, aaid said:

Ash Regan committing career hari-kari here.

you must admit, she's got balls !

[aaid]

7 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Agree which is why throwing bigotry about as an insult is not something I agree with.  L

Who's calling anyone a bigot?

 

[PapofGlencoe]

6 minutes ago, aaid said:

Who's calling anyone a bigot?

 

Nobody on here but you see it elsewhere online and in print.

Can hardly say this has been a well conducted debate in the UK!  There's articles constantly in the Times for example about academics and others effectively being constructively dismissed for not agreeing with the 'correct' view and called all sorts. It's all very complicated.  I hope it does good and not bad, that's all we can hope for.

From what I've read, It seems to me we're having this discussion 20 years too late.  The concept of a GRC is already established and would be difficult to renounce.  This bill is more about admin (plus the age change which I am really against).  However I don't think anyone was really listening 20 years ago when it was introduced so it's being had now.  Ironically probably having a GRC basically proves you're not a women.  No women anyone knows needs one. We probably could have come up with a better way of doing things for all if we didn't have the old laws and tunneled thinking. 

[hampden_loon2878]

55 minutes ago, aaid said:

Ash Regan committing career hari-kari here.

Got to give her credit. Well done to her 

[Diamond Scot]

58 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

16 year olds should be nowhere near this… absolute insanity.

Do you agree with all the other things 16 year olds are allowed to legally do?

[aaid]

The process for 16/17 year olds is a bit more involved and has additional checks.  

[PapofGlencoe]

23 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Do you agree with all the other things 16 year olds are allowed to legally do?

Definitely not, anybody that thinks 16 year olds should be joining the army have my sympathy.  Almost like a law that hasn't moved on from WW1.

[aaid]

6 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Definitely not, anybody that thinks 16 year olds should be joining the army have my sympathy.  Almost like a law that hasn't moved on from WW1.

Do you believe that children are legally responsible for their actions at age 12?

[AlfieMoon]

55 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Got to give her credit. Well done to her 

Indeed. Good to see a politician with principle and the strength of character to stick to what she believes in, rather than blindly fall in line. 
 

 

[PapofGlencoe]

11 minutes ago, aaid said:

Do you believe that children are legally responsible for their actions at age 12?

Like a great many things, I imagine it depends on the circumstances.  I don't have a strong opinion on it, unlike my view above.

Do you think we should lower alcohol consumption to 16? Fags too? 

I think it demonstrates we treat children differently depending on the issue at hand.  I see no reason for it to be flat across the board.  

what is the basis of your question?  You think we should be sending 16 year olds to barracks?  Fair enough if so, I disagree.

I think 18 is the real age of adulthood.  If not even later but don't think it needs everything tied to a specific age.  We're complex animals. 

   

[PapofGlencoe]

1 minute ago, AlfieMoon said:

Indeed. Good to see a politician with principle and the strength of character to stick to what she believes in, rather than blindly fall in line. 
 

 

Heartily agree. I'm not even sure I agree with her on everything but we need more intellectual bravery.  Half the SNP benches can't even read a scripted question at fmqs.  Bought, paid for or scared.