Devo Max

[Hertsscot]

Okay I feel like the kid in class who was daydreaming at the important bit and wasn't really paying full attention.

What are the key differences between the original proposals for Devo max and what was offered via the front page of the Record?

[iainmac1]

Nothing at all. And don't call it Devo max, it isn't. They use that name to confuse people and let them think the powers are far greater than they actually are.

[Rossy]

'Devo Max' is effectively home rule. All powers devolved to Scotland apart from foreign affairs and defence.

That was never, ever on the table.

What we'll get will be a much-trumpeted, but useless, arrangement where we can keep the money from dog licences and speeding fines.

Many people....in their ignorance, bless them...will think we're getting 'devo max', because the media made it sound that way. What we're actually getting (eventually, maybe) are 'improved' powers to raise 14% of our own income.

14%.

[Betty]

Don't shoot me .... someone shared it to my time line.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-we-don-t-need-referendum-for-independence-1-3548270

[Guest flumax]

Don't shoot me .... someone shared it to my time line.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-we-don-t-need-referendum-for-independence-1-3548270

Don't see how this could happen? Only with the help of the EU is this possible : something along the lines of UK going against the rest of the EU wishes in leaving, whereas EU states recognise some in the UK wish to remain EU citizens.

Long and short treat Scotland like the UK treat northern Ireland

[Betty]

Take a landslide majority and it can be demanded as the will of the Scottish people. He's tried being pleasant about it. Now it's really time for a proper argument. Sit tight, watch this space.

[Guest flumax]

Take a landsllide majority and it can be demanded as the will of the Scottish people. He's tried being pleasant about it. Now it's really time for a proper argument. Sit tight, watch this space.

It has to absolutely be page one of the manifesto, "in the event of an snp majority in the Scottish parliament we will declare independence"

That way it can be Claimed that is the sovereign will at the time of the election and but in September 19th.

I still struggle to see how it would be possible. But who cares, go for it

[tam4ritchie]

Ffs did none of tiy listen to George Galloway? It's better than Devo max it's " super Devo", which I'm sure one day they will let the people of Scotland know exactly what it is. In the meantime just shut up snd be grateful for what they've given you

[Bristolhibby]

Ffs did none of tiy listen to George Galloway? It's better than Devo max it's " super Devo", which I'm sure one day they will let the people of Scotland know exactly what it is. In the meantime just shut up snd be grateful for what they've given you

Don't forget Captain Devo, or the Incredible Devo.

J

[Auld_Reekie]

IMO, we should continue to talk about DevoMax at every opportunity because sooner, or later, people will realise we will never ever going to get it. They used the term DevoMax and we should demand DevoMax is delivered. Dropping the term would let them off lightly.

[Toepoke]

Swinney was hinting at pushing for it yesterday.

I'll put my hand up and say devo max would have been my #1 choice, but only if it's as Rossy put, EVERYTHING devolved bar foreign policy and defence.

[Auld_Reekie]

SNP cannot lose by supporting DevoMax AND independence IMO. DevoMax will never be delivered as it fails every test the No campaign used against independence. This allows the SNP to accept result of referendum but continue to apply maximum pressure on UK state without being accused of not accepting result. And the threat should always be: fail on DevoMax and we have independence ready to go.

[ShedTA]

Swinney was hinting at pushing for it yesterday.

I'll put my hand up and say devo max would have been my #1 choice, but only if it's as Rossy put, EVERYTHING devolved bar foreign policy and defence.

does deo max actually give us a better share of our revenues or is it still pooled and then split back into the regions? and does it retain the barnett formula for this?

[Toepoke]

Agree there Auld Reekie, the SNP are in an incredibly strong position for the moment.

does deo max actually give us a better share of our revenues or is it still pooled and then split back into the regions? and does it retain the barnett formula for this?

Hard to say as I've never seen it spelled out. Personally I'd prefer us to have full control of revenues and send a block grant to Westminster instead. We'd have to have them on their knees to achieve that one though...

Edited September 22, 2014 by Toepoke

[jockodile]

If it had been on the ballot it would have won easily, both London and Edinburgh knew this.

I was disappointed it wasn't there as it was a move in the right direction, and pretty much guaranteed independence a wee bit down the track.

Lose on a binary choice and you are stalled (what Westminster clearly wanted)

The YouGov poll and subsequent vow to appear in the last few days might yet be our kingmaker.

If they deliver something substantial we grab it with both hands and let it bed in. More experience and more successful govt it becomes not such a leap in the dark next time, it is evolution not revolution.

If they fail to deliver then they lied with a callous bribe at the 11th hour. This will not be forgiven by the people who will feel duped.

Win win

[min]

As others have said, Devo MAX by definition is home rule. All revenues raised in Scotland (including a geographical share of natural resources) would go to Edinburgh. Scotland would then be obliged to pay Westminster a population share of defence and foreign affair costs. Anything short of this is not Devo Max.

[AlfieMoon]

The actual intention of Devo-Max in it's proper form would be Scotland taking complete control of all our finances and then effectively paying Westminster for Defence and Foreign Affairs services which would remain reserved. I'm pretty sure it was the SNP that defined this a number of years back. There would be no need for any block grant / Barnett as we'd be taking full control of finances.

As others have said - this is not on the table and 'the vow' certainly gets nowhere near this. Current Scotland Act power transfer is taking the tax which Scotland raises from 7% up to 15%. Any additional powers from 'the vow' (which are as yet to be defined in any way) are unlikely to give us much more responsibility and even if they do, it won't really matter as Westminster hold the overall purse strings. More powers are a poisoned chalice.

[Caledonian Craig]

Alfie Moon I made this point yesterday.

These 'powers' pledged by Brown and his cronies - does anyone actually know what they are? And also who decides if they are sufficient enough powers not for Scots to demand a re-referendum as the powers don't go far enough? I mean if we look at facts here the opinion poll that had unionists smearing their pants was the one that had yes vote in the lead about a fortnight ago and this triggered Brown to make his panicked pledges and the following opinion polls tipped things back the no way so these pledges had a big influence on the vote. That being the case if they prove to be a sham surely Salmond and the SNP would be well within their rights to demand another referendum on the grounds of misleading promises from the Better Together group.

[Auld_Reekie]

Agree there Auld Reekie, the SNP are in an incredibly strong position for the moment.

From a constitutional point of view, the SNP dont have to change that much. The main, tangible difference between Independence and DevoMax is Trident. And supporting DevoMax doesnt mean you have to support Trident or even foreign policy. They get to look reasonable in defeat but tactically, there's little difference.

The worry I have for the SNP is government. If they want to stay in power, they now need to govern within the limits of devolution. When cuts come from Westminster, it'll be the SNP dishing them out. If the SNP want to implement policy, it'll be them cutting elsewhere. And all the while, Labour et al get to sit on the sidelines scoring points. When Labour et al spoke of getting on with childcare immediately, what do the SNP do now? Cuts to college budgets, what do the SNP do now? Justice portfolio that Kenny has been making a bit of a pig's ear of? What now? For the last few years, the SNP have been more and more risk averse and it will need to start tackling issues head on and that is very difficult within the devolved settlement.

The biggest challenge for the SNP is how to govern effectively while continuing to argue that devolution is holding us back. The blunt alternative would be to resign from government and sit in opposition while Labour et al have to live with their commitments to reintroduce prescription charges, etc.

But this is looking more and more difficult given the surge in support for pro-independence parties. Labour dont look like they'll be in government soon.

The SNP will need to make some hard choices. They should pursue socially just just policies but take the worst of Labour's manifesto to fund them. Better childcare but reintroduce prescription fees. More college places, but end free bus travel.

The constitution is the least of the SNPs worries now. They've got a tough manifesto to write.

[Armchair Bob]

I would like to see some far-reaching land reform. Bring in a law similar to Switzerland or Denmark that only residents of Scotland can own land in Scotland, and extend right to buy from council house owners to tenant farmers.

[Brassrubber]

If prescription fees are reintroduced the snp will never get the people they need to get on board on board simples .The punishment of the elderly and sick is not an option if we look to reduce the labour vote.

[AlfieMoon]

It's difficult to see where the SNP will get the money to continue as normal. The only thing I can see that in any way gives them wriggle room is the end of the council tax freeze.

They can't introduce tuition fees as it was central to everything Sturgeon has said.

They've said that the prescription thing costs a lot of money to means-test. The care for the elderly and free bus pass, etc. can't really go as if you're talking about being a party of equality and universal care then that's political suicide. Again PFI in the NHS is a tough one to go back on. Police Scotland has already been centralised with a view to cost reduction so realistically it's going to be education and transport/infrastructure that are really stretched.

[kumnio]

The care for the elderly and free bus pass, etc. can't really go as if you're talking about being a party of equality and universal care then that's political suicide.

Free bus passes should be the first to go, absolutely no doubt about that.

[Auld_Reekie]

It's difficult to see where the SNP will get the money to continue as normal. The only thing I can see that in any way gives them wriggle room is the end of the council tax freeze.

They can't introduce tuition fees as it was central to everything Sturgeon has said.

They've said that the prescription thing costs a lot of money to means-test. The care for the elderly and free bus pass, etc. can't really go as if you're talking about being a party of equality and universal care then that's political suicide. Again PFI in the NHS is a tough one to go back on. Police Scotland has already been centralised with a view to cost reduction so realistically it's going to be education and transport/infrastructure that are really stretched.

This is why the SNP are still going to have some problems. No matter what way you spin it, they are working with a fixed pot of money so if you want to implement new policies, you have to cut something else or charge for other services. The trick is emphasising that they have no choice because of how devolution is funded. One of the ways they might do this is to pick policies Labour suggest charging for - this stops it from being a possible avenue of attack from Labour.

From what I can remember, the council tax freeze doesn't actual raise a lot of money so we'll need to be looking at other ways to raise money.

The good thing from an independence point of view is that there is hurt and austerity coming and the SNP can legitimately say they offered an alternative. Maybe people need to feel the hurt more before coming round to supporting it.

[ShedTA]

This is why the SNP are still going to have some problems. No matter what way you spin it, they are working with a fixed pot of money so if you want to implement new policies, you have to cut something else or charge for other services. The trick is emphasising that they have no choice because of how devolution is funded. One of the ways they might do this is to pick policies Labour suggest charging for - this stops it from being a possible avenue of attack from Labour.

From what I can remember, the council tax freeze doesn't actual raise a lot of money so we'll need to be looking at other ways to raise money.

The good thing from an independence point of view is that there is hurt and austerity coming and the SNP can legitimately say they offered an alternative. Maybe people need to feel the hurt more before coming round to supporting it.

Part of their Indy campaign was around these cuts as well, so they can legitimately now say - these are the cuts we told you coming from Westminster. If they play it right, it may not damage them at all.