Devo Max

[Armchair Bob]

Part of their Indy campaign was around these cuts as well, so they can legitimately now say - these are the cuts we told you coming from Westminster. If they play it right, it may not damage them at all.

They can play it as well as they like, the media will still report it as SNP cuts.

The most important thing the yes campaign can do its own the media. How they do that I don't know - it may even take a majority in England to desire Scottish independence before the papers and BBC will take the idea seriously. Thats the downside with having a foreign owned media

[Hertsscot]

Thanks for the replies, I now feel somewhat clearer on the issues and I'll promise to pay more attention next time.

[Ally Bongo]

As stated on Scotland 2014 tonight the SNP may put full Independence on the backburner for the moment and push for home rule which is control over everything except defence and foreign policy

I know it's hindsight but that is what the referendum should have been about. We would have skooshed it

Then all it takes is a couple of wars which are guaranteed and we have full Independence

The crux however as always is that Westminster would still want a cut of the Oil & Gas so i cant see them giving us full control over that initially

[Big Dod]

As stated on Scotland 2014 tonight the SNP may put full Independence on the backburner for the moment and push for home rule which is control over everything except defence and foreign policy

I know it's hindsight but that is what the referendum should have been about. We would have skooshed it

Then all it takes is a couple of wars which are guaranteed and we have full Independence

The crux however as always is that Westminster would still want a cut of the Oil & Gas so i cant see them giving us full control over that initially

But there's not much oil left remember? And the price is so volatile that what's left isn't worth anything anyway.

[Orraloon]

As stated on Scotland 2014 tonight the SNP may put full Independence on the backburner for the moment and push for home rule which is control over everything except defence and foreign policy

I know it's hindsight but that is what the referendum should have been about. We would have skooshed it

Then all it takes is a couple of wars which are guaranteed and we have full Independence

The crux however as always is that Westminster would still want a cut of the Oil & Gas so i cant see them giving us full control over that initially

The oil and gas isn't that big a deal to the UK treasury in terms of revenue. It's only about 1% of the total revenue take. It is a big deal in terms of balance of payments deficit though but that's not a problem as long as we share the same currency.

[Ally Bongo]

The oil and gas isn't that big a deal to the UK treasury in terms of revenue. It's only about 1% of the total revenue take. It is a big deal in terms of balance of payments deficit though but that's not a problem as long as we share the same currency.

Well played

Lets go for it

[Toepoke]

As stated on Scotland 2014 tonight the SNP may put full Independence on the backburner for the moment and push for home rule which is control over everything except defence and foreign policy

I know it's hindsight but that is what the referendum should have been about. We would have skooshed it

We'd have needed the rUK to agree in advance to any more devolution however...

[Ally Bongo]

We'd have needed the rUK to agree in advance to any more devolution however...

Maybe not that hard

[scotlad]

From a constitutional point of view, the SNP dont have to change that much. The main, tangible difference between Independence and DevoMax is Trident. And supporting DevoMax doesnt mean you have to support Trident or even foreign policy. They get to look reasonable in defeat but tactically, there's little difference.

The worry I have for the SNP is government. If they want to stay in power, they now need to govern within the limits of devolution. When cuts come from Westminster, it'll be the SNP dishing them out. If the SNP want to implement policy, it'll be them cutting elsewhere. And all the while, Labour et al get to sit on the sidelines scoring points. When Labour et al spoke of getting on with childcare immediately, what do the SNP do now? Cuts to college budgets, what do the SNP do now? Justice portfolio that Kenny has been making a bit of a pig's ear of? What now? For the last few years, the SNP have been more and more risk averse and it will need to start tackling issues head on and that is very difficult within the devolved settlement.

The biggest challenge for the SNP is how to govern effectively while continuing to argue that devolution is holding us back. The blunt alternative would be to resign from government and sit in opposition while Labour et al have to live with their commitments to reintroduce prescription charges, etc.

But this is looking more and more difficult given the surge in support for pro-independence parties. Labour dont look like they'll be in government soon.

The SNP will need to make some hard choices. They should pursue socially just just policies but take the worst of Labour's manifesto to fund them. Better childcare but reintroduce prescription fees. More college places, but end free bus travel.

The constitution is the least of the SNPs worries now. They've got a tough manifesto to write.

I foresaw this problem all along in the event of a No vote. From a political point of view it is tough to play too. The danger is they could end up looking like they are pointing the finger at Westminster all the time, making them look weak and petty. Labour will no doubt attempt to make political capital out of it, although it is doubtful that they will have any workable alternatives.

One solution could be to raise the top rate of income tax to make up the budget shortfall (I think Holyrood will be granted the powers to do this ). The burden would then fall on those with the broadest shoulders rather than more vulnerable sections of society, and it might give the I'm alright Jocks who voted No to preserve their comfortable lives a bit of a shock (although it wouldn't exactly endear them to the SNP).

As stated on Scotland 2014 tonight the SNP may put full Independence on the backburner for the moment and push for home rule which is control over everything except defence and foreign policy

I know it's hindsight but that is what the referendum should have been about. We would have skooshed it

Then all it takes is a couple of wars which are guaranteed and we have full Independence

The crux however as always is that Westminster would still want a cut of the Oil & Gas so i cant see them giving us full control over that initially

If Barnett is scrapped then the SNP should definitely push this agenda. An added bonus, if independence ever appeared on the horizon again, is that the big pension scare would be nullified, as state pensions and benefits would be controlled in Scotland anyway.

They should also press for public broadcasting to be devolved too, just to be on the safe side.

[Toepoke]

If 45% were prepared to go for independence then a sizeable increase on that would surely pick home rule within the UK. The SNP should write their 2015 manifesto around this.

Westminster clearly don't want to give up the likes of O&G, whisky revenues etc. but faced with a choice of Scotland controlling that for them, or losing all of it under independence they might be prepared to concede...

[EddardStark]

The LD's is the better of the two as far as I am concerned.

From the Scotsman

Liberal Democrat proposal

It recommended replacing the 1707 Act of Union with a “declaration of federal union” which would ultimately produce regional and national parliaments and assemblies across the UK.

The Lib Dem blueprint suggested that Scotland could raise around two thirds of all the money it spends with Holyrood collecting almost all income, capital gains tax, inheritance tax and air passenger duty.

A federal government in London would retain powers over foreign affairs, defence, currency, North Sea revenues, welfare and pensions.

Labour proposal

The Commission recommends that Holyrood is given the power to raise around 40 per cent of its budget from its own resources and hand control of three-quarters of basic income tax to Edinburgh.
New Scottish “progressive rates of income tax” would be part of proposals to widen income tax-varying powers that are already planned for Scotland.

The Scotland Act 2012, which comes into force in 2016, will already compel the Scottish administration to set an annual rate of income tax. Holyrood would have control of 10p of the basic rate – 10p in every pound.
According to Labour’s Commission, the share of the basic rate controlled by Holyrood ought to be widened from 10p to 15p in the
pound.

These powers would be accompanied by the ability to vary the rates paid by more prosperous Scots in the “higher” and “additional” income tax bands.
Accompanied by promises to redistribute wealth in Scotland, Labour’s proposal has been interpreted as a shift to the left aimed at securing the votes of those in their traditional heartlands, who may be flirting with independence.

The SNP have criticised Labour for failing to be radical enough, caricaturing their commission as “DevoNano”.

Only the Scottish Conservatives have yet to publish their plans for more devolution. Their commission is currently looking at the issue under the leadership of Lord Strathclyde.

Edited September 23, 2014 by EddardStark

[Lamia]

IMO, we should continue to talk about DevoMax at every opportunity because sooner, or later, people will realise we will never ever going to get it. They used the term DevoMax and we should demand DevoMax is delivered. Dropping the term would let them off lightly.

I would like to see some far-reaching land reform. Bring in a law similar to Switzerland or Denmark that only residents of Scotland can own land in Scotland, and extend right to buy from council house owners to tenant farmers.

Land reform is a biggy and could do so much. I hope they take the bull by the horns on this one.

From a constitutional point of view, the SNP dont have to change that much. The main, tangible difference between Independence and DevoMax is Trident. And supporting DevoMax doesnt mean you have to support Trident or even foreign policy. They get to look reasonable in defeat but tactically, there's little difference.

The worry I have for the SNP is government. If they want to stay in power, they now need to govern within the limits of devolution. When cuts come from Westminster, it'll be the SNP dishing them out. If the SNP want to implement policy, it'll be them cutting elsewhere. And all the while, Labour et al get to sit on the sidelines scoring points. When Labour et al spoke of getting on with childcare immediately, what do the SNP do now? Cuts to college budgets, what do the SNP do now? Justice portfolio that Kenny has been making a bit of a pig's ear of? What now? For the last few years, the SNP have been more and more risk averse and it will need to start tackling issues head on and that is very difficult within the devolved settlement.

The biggest challenge for the SNP is how to govern effectively while continuing to argue that devolution is holding us back. The blunt alternative would be to resign from government and sit in opposition while Labour et al have to live with their commitments to reintroduce prescription charges, etc.

But this is looking more and more difficult given the surge in support for pro-independence parties. Labour dont look like they'll be in government soon.

The SNP will need to make some hard choices. They should pursue socially just just policies but take the worst of Labour's manifesto to fund them. Better childcare but reintroduce prescription fees. More college places, but end free bus travel.

The constitution is the least of the SNPs worries now. They've got a tough manifesto to write.

If we actually do get some tax raising powers they should just increase taxes and make sure the people know why.

[Toepoke]

The Tory boy on Scotland Tonight made a decent point, if the Devo Max issue is properly addressed the 45 will become 35 or less, if not it will become 55 or more...

[Auld_Reekie]

The Tory boy on Scotland Tonight made a decent point, if the Devo Max issue is properly addressed the 45 will become 35 or less, if not it will become 55 or more...

DevoMax will never be addressed. It fails every argument they made against independence - it's full fiscal independence with monetary union. Very important everyone in the independence movement continues to talk about DevoMax.

[Caledonian Craig]

Well if taxes have to be raised how about hitting the toffs hard - after all we all know they were the no voters.

[new hugh]

It's not perfect, but this is still useful graph from ex-Lib Dem MSP Jeremy Purvis' Devo Plus site:

http://www.devoplus.com/what-is-devo-plus/

[Toepoke]

It's not perfect, but this is still useful graph from ex-Lib Dem MSP Jeremy Purvis' Devo Plus site:

http://www.devoplus.com/what-is-devo-plus/

Good summary slide. They should've printed it in the Record alongside THE VOW

[Armchair Bob]

Land reform is a biggy and could do so much. I hope they take the bull by the horns on this one.

From reading Andy Wightman's excellent site, it looks like there will be a land reform bill in 2015.

http://www.andywightman.com/?p=3790

Andy is suggesting the right to buy for agricultural tenants, and compulsory sale for derelict or unused land. This could be the last opportunity to introduce something like this. I would love it if they also made residence in Scotland a condition for owning land in Scotland. It goes against EU laws on free trade but Denmark for one has negotiated an opt-out on that, so that rich Germans can't hoover up land in Denmark. (Danes can do that because they are an independent country...) at the very least though we could introduce laws to restrict land ownership to EU citizens. Meaning home counties toffs could still own vast tracts of Scotland they only visit for two weeks a year, but at least Arabs and Russians couldn't.

[jailender]

From reading Andy Wightman's excellent site, it looks like there will be a land reform bill in 2015.

http://www.andywightman.com/?p=3790

Andy is suggesting the right to buy for agricultural tenants, and compulsory sale for derelict or unused land. This could be the last opportunity to introduce something like this. I would love it if they also made residence in Scotland a condition for owning land in Scotland. It goes against EU laws on free trade but Denmark for one has negotiated an opt-out on that, so that rich Germans can't hoover up land in Denmark. (Danes can do that because they are an independent country...) at the very least though we could introduce laws to restrict land ownership to EU citizens. Meaning home counties toffs could still own vast tracts of Scotland they only visit for two weeks a year, but at least Arabs and Russians couldn't.

Danes are some of the biggest landowners in Scotland.

[Orraloon]

The LD's is the better of the two as far as I am concerned.

From the Scotsman

Liberal Democrat proposal

It recommended replacing the 1707 Act of Union with a “declaration of federal union” which would ultimately produce regional and national parliaments and assemblies across the UK.

The Lib Dem blueprint suggested that Scotland could raise around two thirds of all the money it spends with Holyrood collecting almost all income, capital gains tax, inheritance tax and air passenger duty.

A federal government in London would retain powers over foreign affairs, defence, currency, North Sea revenues, welfare and pensions.

Labour proposal

The Commission recommends that Holyrood is given the power to raise around 40 per cent of its budget from its own resources and hand control of three-quarters of basic income tax to Edinburgh.

New Scottish “progressive rates of income tax” would be part of proposals to widen income tax-varying powers that are already planned for Scotland.

The Scotland Act 2012, which comes into force in 2016, will already compel the Scottish administration to set an annual rate of income tax. Holyrood would have control of 10p of the basic rate – 10p in every pound.

According to Labour’s Commission, the share of the basic rate controlled by Holyrood ought to be widened from 10p to 15p in the

pound.

These powers would be accompanied by the ability to vary the rates paid by more prosperous Scots in the “higher” and “additional” income tax bands.

Accompanied by promises to redistribute wealth in Scotland, Labour’s proposal has been interpreted as a shift to the left aimed at securing the votes of those in their traditional heartlands, who may be flirting with independence.

The SNP have criticised Labour for failing to be radical enough, caricaturing their commission as “DevoNano”.

Only the Scottish Conservatives have yet to publish their plans for more devolution. Their commission is currently looking at the issue under the leadership of Lord Strathclyde.

Is that not a wee bit out of date?

They told us we would get DevoMax. Anything less and they have reneged on their promise.

[EddardStark]

Is that not a wee bit out of date? They told us we would get DevoMax. Anything less and they have reneged on their promise.

they never stated devo Max

[Orraloon]

they never stated devo Max

I think you'll find THEY did. Did you not read any of the papers in the fortnight before the referendum?

[Armchair Bob]

Danes are some of the biggest landowners in Scotland.

Ironic, isn't it.

[jailender]

Ironic, isn't it.

That's one word for it

[Armchair Bob]

Wait a cotton picking minute. It might not be possible to bar EU citizens from other states from owning land in Scotland, but there will be no bar on banning *UK* citizens without primary residence in Scotland.

Imagine David Cameron's father in law no longer owning half of Jura.