Mee Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/19/it-failures-farm-subsidies-cost-sturgeon-scotland-125m Shocking stuff, the money spent and incompetence is eye watering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Sounds like they didn't have the requirements nailed down before the project started which is always a recipe for disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Not the SNP's fault. Labour done it and ran away. I blame Westminster Cuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mee Posted May 20, 2016 Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 1 hour ago, aaid said: Sounds like they didn't have the requirements nailed down before the project started which is always a recipe for disaster. Doesn't explain the head of recruitment setting up a recruitment company and funneling all the work through it at higher rates than they were meant to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 4 minutes ago, Mee said: Doesn't explain the head of recruitment setting up a recruitment company and funneling all the work through it at higher rates than they were meant to. Maybe because that wasn't what was happening. There was certainly a conflict of interest - which is for from good practice - but as far as I know, there's no suggestion that it contributed to the overruns. In fact it seems that what was happening there was that onshore contract staff were being replaced by offshore staff, which you generally only do for one reason, to reduce cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 SNP Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33504664 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1563c9aa-9dca-11e5-b45d-4812f209f861.html#axzz49F22Xqyy http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/01/uk_fine_180m_eu_botched_farm_payments/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Meanwhile in Glasgow A councillor (Yvonne Kucuk), is suspended from the Labour Party after being charged with embezzlement ,,,,,,,, http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14493672.Glasgow_Labour_councillor_charged_amid_embezzlement_probe/ Whilst councillor (Aileen Colleran) quits the Labour Party after being treated with "suspicion and mistrust" partly because she supports Scottish independence and partly also because her husband (Chris Stephens) is an SNP MP ....... http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14506544.Prominent_Labour_figure_quits_party_throwing_council_control_into_doubt/?ref=rss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 8 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: SNP Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad Was that from the sheep farmers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 1 hour ago, aaid said: Was that from the sheep farmers. Yes Im sorry - it was very poor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 10 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: SNP Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33504664 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1563c9aa-9dca-11e5-b45d-4812f209f861.html#axzz49F22Xqyy http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/01/uk_fine_180m_eu_botched_farm_payments/ 9 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said: Meanwhile in Glasgow A councillor (Yvonne Kucuk), is suspended from the Labour Party after being charged with embezzlement ,,,,,,,, http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14493672.Glasgow_Labour_councillor_charged_amid_embezzlement_probe/ Whilst councillor (Aileen Colleran) quits the Labour Party after being treated with "suspicion and mistrust" partly because she supports Scottish independence and partly also because her husband (Chris Stephens) is an SNP MP ....... http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14506544.Prominent_Labour_figure_quits_party_throwing_council_control_into_doubt/?ref=rss SNP supporters really are the huns of politics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu101 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 10 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: SNP Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad I genuinely laughed out loud at that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antidote Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 20 hours ago, Parklife said: Not the SNP's fault. Labour done it and ran away. I blame Westminster Cuts. No this was Labour's fault and £125 million pales into insignificance compared to Labour's £10, £11, £12, £20 billion. Take your pick on the final cost. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-pulls-the-plug-on-its-11bn-it-system-2330906.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2040259/NHS-IT-project-failure-Labours-12bn-scheme-scrapped.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542486/20bn-NHS-computer-system-doomed-to-fail.html Oh and was Labour at Westminster!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfieMoon Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Why exactly are Labour and Westminster getting brought into this discussion about the ScotGov balls-up on this new system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 45 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said: Why exactly are Labour and Westminster getting brought into this discussion about the ScotGov balls-up on this new system? Because it's clear it's not just a Scottish Government issue which the mainstream media would have us believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antidote Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 7 hours ago, AlfieMoon said: Why exactly are Labour and Westminster getting brought into this discussion about the ScotGov balls-up on this new system? Don't know ask Parklife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 6 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: Because it's clear it's not just a Scottish Government issue which the mainstream media would have us believe It's not just a government issue either. IT projects in both the private and public sectors are vulnerable to set backs and in some cases failures. It is disappointing, though, to see the Scottish Government following the UK government's lead and throwing money at private consultants and contractors who fail to deliver (and then point the finger back). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 I have no sympathy for that subsidy junkies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 44 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said: I have no sympathy for that subsidy junkies Me neither.The only folk who do more whingin' than fisher fowk are fermers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euan2020 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Only folk who are subsidized are the paying public. They are not paying the true cost of production covering eu legislation and animal husbandry. In the 50's 50% of your wage went on food, now gets spent on tat etc Now certainly you can get cheap food from abroad but there is not the same animal husbandry etc and meat from states is full of sterrhoids But anyway - There's a reason why farming had a high suicide rate and it isn't because they are worried what to do with all their money By the by - I work in oil industry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calmac_man Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 I shouldn't be doing this, but... This is entirely the Scottish Government's fault. Sure, it was always going to be difficult, and other countries screwed up too. But most countries have managed alright, and we definitely would have if we'd had competent management. For about 3 years prior to the mess unravelling in December staff across the Directorate have known that it was an unfolding disaster, it's been discussed openly in the corridors. There was one brave whistleblower who was shut up by HR. The details on this site are correct, as far as I can tell, and give more on it: https://scottishsaf.wordpress.com The Audit Scotland report is correct and apportions blame fairly. If anything, it lets the key civil servants off the hook. The conflict of interest is sexier than it is important - it didn't contribute much, if at all, to the delays and cost overruns. The problem was management. They lacked the knowledge, experience and, in most cases, ability to oversee a project of this size and complexity. They didn't acknowledge their lack of expertise, didn't appreciate that this is no job for a talented amateur, and didn't bring in help. The consultants they did bring in weren't invested in the success of the project, and some gained more from its failure. They learned nothing from previous government IT failures and made all the same mistakes. The single most important finding is: "Programme governance has not been effective. Significant decisions were made outwith programme governance structures; strategic decisions took too long; and senior roles and responsibilities overlapped and did not operate as intended. The programme team and IT division also did not work as one team, with a lack of trust and blame culture hindering effective progress. There has been little accountability in the programme for IT delivery leading to ineffective challenge and oversight. Management failed to deal effectively with conflicts of interest; actions were taken but these were inadequate and arrangements were not sufficient to ensure value for money." You can take blame all the way up the chain, including to Ministers, depending on your view of how much they're responsible for what goes on beneath them. My own view is that it was Richard Lochhead's job to ask the difficult question. I don't know to what extent he did that, or whether he should have accepted the answers he was getting. But alarm bells should have been going off big style by the start of 2015 when it was clear that the system was a long, long way from ready, when stress testing was still a long way from possible, and when the Chief Agricultural Officer legged it to the private sector in a classic escaping-a-sinking-ship number. For a Minister this was a jotters-level event and I think only the election and his family circumstances saved him from the ignominy. The reason I'm posting this is that I'm furious about the incompetence, the damage to our credibility and the waste of money, and most people I speak to in Saughton House feel the same. We like the farming industry and we're embarrassed that this has happened to them. The fact that the senior manager who is most responsible for all of this remains in post and unblemished, when we all know he should be out the door, is hugely demotivating for those under him. What's even worse is that the management culture that failed to spot the emerging problems and deal with them has spread across the Scottish Government. There have been screw-ups caused by it before, and there will be more to come. Not only do the senior management not know much about their policy areas or the technical skills for IT, legislation, project management and so on, they have so much faith in their own innate abilities that they don't even think it's important. I feel I should end on a positive note, but... nope, I've got nothing. Other than maybe that the two guys in charge of cleaning up the mess have been doing a very good job, and might manage to get us through next year unscathed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilly71 Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Good to see you back Calmac! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Really informative post, Calmac Man. Thanks very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jie Bie Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 12 hours ago, calmac_man said: "Programme governance has not been effective. Significant decisions were made outwith programme governance structures; strategic decisions took too long; and senior roles and responsibilities overlapped and did not operate as intended. The programme team and IT division also did not work as one team, with a lack of trust and blame culture hindering effective progress. There has been little accountability in the programme for IT delivery leading to ineffective challenge and oversight. Management failed to deal effectively with conflicts of interest; actions were taken but these were inadequate and arrangements were not sufficient to ensure value for money." I've been working in IT since 2003, and I've seen what is described above happening time and time again. Too many projects end up completely rudderless with everyone blaming each other once the money has run out and not even half of the system is complete! The worst of it is that it is completely avoidable, but no senior manager wants to hear about investing time and money developing a detailed requirements specification and low-level design, they just want project teams to "get on with it and get it built". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecie Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 17 minutes ago, Jie Bie said: I've been working in IT since 2003, and I've seen what is described above happening time and time again. Too many projects end up completely rudderless with everyone blaming each other once the money has run out and not even half of the system is complete! The worst of it is that it is completely avoidable, but no senior manager wants to hear about investing time and money developing a detailed requirements specification and low-level design, they just want project teams to "get on with it and get it built". It's not exclusive to IT. You either get a 'people' person in charge who doesn't understand the 'technology', or a 'technology' person in charge who doesn't understand 'people'. Both result in a partially successful delivery. I blame it all on the buyers. Always without doubt the most useless people in any organisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 17 hours ago, calmac_man said: I shouldn't be doing this, but... This is entirely the Scottish Government's fault. Sure, it was always going to be difficult, and other countries screwed up too. But most countries have managed alright, and we definitely would have if we'd had competent management. For about 3 years prior to the mess unravelling in December staff across the Directorate have known that it was an unfolding disaster, it's been discussed openly in the corridors. There was one brave whistleblower who was shut up by HR. The details on this site are correct, as far as I can tell, and give more on it: https://scottishsaf.wordpress.com The Audit Scotland report is correct and apportions blame fairly. If anything, it lets the key civil servants off the hook. The conflict of interest is sexier than it is important - it didn't contribute much, if at all, to the delays and cost overruns. The problem was management. They lacked the knowledge, experience and, in most cases, ability to oversee a project of this size and complexity. They didn't acknowledge their lack of expertise, didn't appreciate that this is no job for a talented amateur, and didn't bring in help. The consultants they did bring in weren't invested in the success of the project, and some gained more from its failure. They learned nothing from previous government IT failures and made all the same mistakes. The single most important finding is: "Programme governance has not been effective. Significant decisions were made outwith programme governance structures; strategic decisions took too long; and senior roles and responsibilities overlapped and did not operate as intended. The programme team and IT division also did not work as one team, with a lack of trust and blame culture hindering effective progress. There has been little accountability in the programme for IT delivery leading to ineffective challenge and oversight. Management failed to deal effectively with conflicts of interest; actions were taken but these were inadequate and arrangements were not sufficient to ensure value for money." You can take blame all the way up the chain, including to Ministers, depending on your view of how much they're responsible for what goes on beneath them. My own view is that it was Richard Lochhead's job to ask the difficult question. I don't know to what extent he did that, or whether he should have accepted the answers he was getting. But alarm bells should have been going off big style by the start of 2015 when it was clear that the system was a long, long way from ready, when stress testing was still a long way from possible, and when the Chief Agricultural Officer legged it to the private sector in a classic escaping-a-sinking-ship number. For a Minister this was a jotters-level event and I think only the election and his family circumstances saved him from the ignominy. The reason I'm posting this is that I'm furious about the incompetence, the damage to our credibility and the waste of money, and most people I speak to in Saughton House feel the same. We like the farming industry and we're embarrassed that this has happened to them. The fact that the senior manager who is most responsible for all of this remains in post and unblemished, when we all know he should be out the door, is hugely demotivating for those under him. What's even worse is that the management culture that failed to spot the emerging problems and deal with them has spread across the Scottish Government. There have been screw-ups caused by it before, and there will be more to come. Not only do the senior management not know much about their policy areas or the technical skills for IT, legislation, project management and so on, they have so much faith in their own innate abilities that they don't even think it's important. I feel I should end on a positive note, but... nope, I've got nothing. Other than maybe that the two guys in charge of cleaning up the mess have been doing a very good job, and might manage to get us through next year unscathed. Aye - good attempt Scunnered ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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