Forth Road Bridge Closed

[adamntg]

From what I read today they're doing temporary repairs in the form of strengthening the joints in question and then more long term fixes later in year with only night time closures required. They sounded reasonably confident in plan with main risk to New Year timetable .

That's what Lee Wilkie tried with his dodgy knee.

[Auld_Reekie]

Haha. Whatever they do is verified by two independent structural engineering companies/bodies. It was never going to be a permanent fix.

[antidote]

Really??????

All here for you in black and white. Plus colour if the righteous police are looking.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/still-better-together/

Edited December 8, 2015 by antidote

[Dalgety Bay TA]

Seen this today amongst a torrent of blame and counter blame on Twitter. Sounds to me like this was a bit of a freak, wasn't actually considered a risk and no amount of cutting or increasing budgets or increase of regularity of checks was actually going to find this or stop it happening. Still won't stop sh!t being flung on boths sides though.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Dalgety Bay TA

[biffer]

Ordered some DVDs from Amazon for next day in Edinburgh. I'll report back to let you know how well they're dealing with the closure....

[jailender]

They will just get someone on minimum wage to swim across the Forth, so you should be OK

[Glasgowmancity]

All here for you in black and white. Plus colour if the righteous police are looking.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/still-better-together/

Cumbernauld Tax Office was not closed "So they could move jobs to Croydon" that is an out & out lie.

[Scunnered]

Heard briefly on the radio this morning that Derek Mackay is accused of lying about the cancellation of repair work in 2010... Giving Mackays moronic response to the privatisation of ferry routes, I'd like the media to ask him about the privatisation of the bridges maintenance, and whether as well as Schrödinger's ferries, do we also have Schrödinger's bridge engineers in Scotland

[antidote]

Cumbernauld Tax Office was not closed "So they could move jobs to Croydon" that is an out & out lie.

Do you have any references?

Let me get this. Cumbernauld tax office closed, or is the process of closing, and a new super office opens in Croydon.

Hmm.

[Orraloon]

Heard briefly on the radio this morning that Derek Mackay is accused of lying about the cancellation of repair work in 2010... Giving Mackays moronic response to the privatisation of ferry routes, I'd like the media to ask him about the privatisation of the bridges maintenance, and whether as well as Schrödinger's ferries, do we also have Schrödinger's bridge engineers in Scotland

"He is a politician, part of his job description is to tell lies" Taken from Alan's little book of proverbs.

Was it Lord Pishy Pants who was accusing him?

[Scunnered]

Was it Lord Pishy Pants who was accusing him?

James Kelly I think it was.

[Orraloon]

James Kelly I think it was.

I was close.

[Scunnered]

I was close.

I don't think the lie is being disputed anymore. Same as Carmichae,l he's been caught out in a media interview.

[Orraloon]

I don't think the lie is being disputed anymore. Same as Carmichae,l he's been caught out in a media interview.

Do you have any evidence that this current failure to welded joints is the same problem as the maintenance to the truss end joints which was put out to tender in 2010? I have been doing a bit of digging around and so far I can't find a definite answer.

[Scunnered]

Do you have any evidence that this current failure to welded joints is the same problem as the maintenance to the truss end joints which was put out to tender in 2010? I have been doing a bit of digging around and so far I can't find a definite answer.

I barely understand what you just said... So, no

[Auld_Reekie]

Do you have any evidence that this current failure to welded joints is the same problem as the maintenance to the truss end joints which was put out to tender in 2010? I have been doing a bit of digging around and so far I can't find a definite answer.

From what I read yesterday, I think the previous cancelled work would have replaced the failed joint.

SNP will probably just have to suck that up. Depends how much they want to throw FETA and previous engineers under the bus - they could claim the severity was never made clear, otherwise funding would have been approved. But I doubt that's a wise strategy. If it were me, I'd swallow the bitter pill and find comfort in the fact they're actually building the new bridge. I'd also let the opposition make hay for now, but when this is all over, I think the SNP can look back and say they actually handled the crisis pretty well. May seem like small beer now but given how catastrophic things appeared last week, they can probably benefit by asking whether we'd really have wanted Scottish Labour in power instead of them. The bridge would still be falling to bits and there would be no new bridge... and I dread to think how a Scottish Labour administration would have handled the last week.

IMO, Mackay has actually handled the last week pretty well. I dont believe his statement to parliament was a lie - probably more a mistake or poor advice from civil servant/Amey. I see sections of the media are going after Mackay - a completely pointless exercise if you ask me. If anything, the majority will actually see the contingency planning as a relative success.

[Orraloon]

I barely understand what you just said... So, no

You should be fairly confident that James Kelly disnae have a Scoobie either.

[Alibi]

In what other world would a major incident be blamed on the opposition? Oh! I know Westminster, any terrorist attacks in the UK will be on Corbyns hands.

Two peas in a pod

The thing is, Scunnered, why does anyone have to be to blame? It's engineering - things are designed to do what is required at the lowest possible cost compatible with not failing under specified loading conditions. An engineer (and i refer to professional engineers here, not your TV repair man who is actually a technician, not an engineer) is sometimes described as someone who can do for a penny what any fool can do for a pound. There has been a structural failure which is almost certainly due to increased loading for which the bridge was not designed. When you increase loading, something is going to give. In our society it's all about "who can we blame?". What they should be asking is "How can we fix it and can we learn anything from this to reduce the chances of anything else failing in the future". Unfortunately we are living in a blame culture where no doubt we will in due course be getting spam emails asking us "are you due compensation for the stress (see what i did there, fellow engineers?) caused by the forth Road Bridge being closed?". Sometimes things go wrong because of factors not foreseen - like much heavier vehicles. You can't forecast the oil price next week, so how can you forecast the weight of an HGV in 50 years' time? This incident is not the fault of the SG, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good mainstream media smear attempt, eh?

[Orraloon]

From what I read yesterday, I think the previous cancelled work would have replaced the failed joint.

I'm still not convinced that is the case. I'll get back to you if I find anything more definate.

On a side note I was speaking to 2 old school, seat of the pants type, engineers yesterday. They think that closing the bridge was an over reaction and that even if that truss member fell off completely the bridge would still be safe to use. They reckoned that the top trusses (it's one of the bottom trusses that has a broken weld in it) and diagonal steelwork around it, should be easily capable of supporting the truss deck and carriageway. It is also supported by the vertical cables. These guys are both retired with loads of experience of building steel structures but I found it hard to believe what they were telling me.

I suppose it's like all other technical scientific professions - if you ask 4 different engineers the same question you will get at least 8 different answers.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Orraloon

[Alibi]

Do you have any evidence that this current failure to welded joints is the same problem as the maintenance to the truss end joints which was put out to tender in 2010? I have been doing a bit of digging around and so far I can't find a definite answer.

I think the previous propsal was for very major works involving a long bridge closure to allow complete trusses to be replaced entirely, but that was shelved as they found another way to repair the then known fault without major closures. The fact that the current component would have been replaced as part of that operation is incidental - it hadn't failed at that time and was only being replaced in the same way if you get a new door fitted you generally get a new handle and lock along with it.

[MacWalka]

I think the previous propsal was for very major works involving a long bridge closure to allow complete trusses to be replaced entirely, but that was shelved as they found another way to repair the then known fault without major closures. The fact that the current component would have been replaced as part of that operation is incidental - it hadn't failed at that time and was only being replaced in the same way if you get a new door fitted you generally get a new handle and lock along with it.

The other thing with steel stress fractures is that replacing the joint as like for like wouldn't necessarily of prevented the failure. It depends whether it was caused by long term fatigue on the joint or if it was an acute change in stress magnitudes and direction which it wasn't designed for.

There's two questions the Scottish Government have to answer:

1) Did they reduce the funding for bridge maintenance. (It seems like the answer to this is yes and there were lies told about this.)

2) Would the failure of been prevented if the bridge funding wasn't reduced.

My suspicion is that this could of happened at any time due to the bridge operating outwith it's design parameters and building the new bridge is required. We just got unlucky that the failure occurred before the new bridge was completed.

The bigger questions rather than trying to lay blame is have the government performed well in organising alternative routes and arrangements? If not what is stopping them from doing so? Are there other infrastructure improvements that can take place in future to add to the robustness of the country? Should folk stop commuting so bloody far every day?

[Larky Masher]

The thing is, Scunnered, why does anyone have to be to blame? It's engineering - things are designed to do what is required at the lowest possible cost compatible with not failing under specified loading conditions. An engineer (and i refer to professional engineers here, not your TV repair man who is actually a technician, not an engineer) is sometimes described as someone who can do for a penny what any fool can do for a pound. There has been a structural failure which is almost certainly due to increased loading for which the bridge was not designed. When you increase loading, something is going to give. In our society it's all about "who can we blame?". What they should be asking is "How can we fix it and can we learn anything from this to reduce the chances of anything else failing in the future". Unfortunately we are living in a blame culture where no doubt we will in due course be getting spam emails asking us "are you due compensation for the stress (see what i did there, fellow engineers?) caused by the forth Road Bridge being closed?". Sometimes things go wrong because of factors not foreseen - like much heavier vehicles. You can't forecast the oil price next week, so how can you forecast the weight of an HGV in 50 years' time? This incident is not the fault of the SG, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good mainstream media smear attempt, eh?

It's been common knowledge for years that bridge was overloaded, had the preventative maintenance schedule been revised to reflect this and the at risk parts would have been changed before they failed.

[Auld_Reekie]

On a side note I was speaking to 2 old school, seat of the pants type, engineers yesterday. They think that closing the bridge was an over reaction and that even if that truss member fell off completely the bridge would still be safe to use. They reckoned that the top trusses (it's one of the bottom trusses that has a broken weld in it) and diagonal steelwork around it, should be easily capable of supporting the truss deck and carriageway. It is also supported by the vertical cables.

I think that's pretty accurate from what I've read. The bridge was never about to fall down - as you've said, it's the cable that hold everything up. I think the truss structure is there allow the bridge to flex with load/expansion/etc and keeps the decking all aligned. Were they to fail, the worst case scenario was that decks would have moved out of alignment creating gaps/drops.

That said, it's a bit complacent to say that closing the bridge is an over-reaction. I dread to think of the hysteria that would have ensued if that came to pass and a deck suddenly dropped a couple of feet and a car piled onto it or people stopped and got out their cars. And even accepting that that probably wouldn't have happened, it was accepted using one side of bridge was making damage worse and reducing to single lane either side would probably have hindered repair work and made life very difficult for engineers.

I don't think the damage is anywhere near as bad as some of the hysteria suggests, but it was absolutely right to close it.

[Glasgowmancity]

Do you have any references?

Let me get this. Cumbernauld tax office closed, or is the process of closing, and a new super office opens in Croydon.

Hmm.

There are 137 offices closing in the UK (17 in Scotland) There are going to be 13 new "super offices" 2 of which are in Scotland.

So 12% of the offices closing are in Scotland and 15% of the new offices are in Scotland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34796299

Edited December 10, 2015 by Glasgowmancity

[stocky]

There are 137 offices closing in the UK (17 in Scotland) There are going to be 13 new "super offices" 2 of which are in Scotland.

So 12% of the offices closing are in Scotland and 15% of the new offices are in Scotland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34796299

wow so it goes down from 17 to 2 and you thing that deserves a thumbs up...

how many staff are losing their jobs, will that be a thumbs up from you?