Scotland Must Leave 18 September Behind

[ShedTA]

so the scotsman has started election campaigning for the labour party already. trying to convince yes voters thats it is over, and to turn back to voting labour.

sorry, that wont wash with a huge number of us.

[Och Aye]

There were plenty... Thousands even, perhaps hundreds of thousands of working class who voted No with no connection to the Orange Order. To believe otherwise is extremely Naive.

There are also thousands of people with no connection to the Orange Order who go to see their parades each year and thousands who don't but are still very bigoted and most probably sadly voted No for bigoted reasons. Always surprised how some people underestimate the amount of bigots there are amongst us.

[giric878]

the struggle goes on

[stocky]

Really ??? The OO has 150000 active members or supporters in Scotland ? 3% or so of the entire Scottish population involved in the OO. I would doubt that very much.

the last figure I read is they have 60,000 members. so I am presuming that their partners are of the same viewpoint, and I added in one off spring for half the members... maybe a bit high, but I don't think far away...

[stocky]

Since we are blocking up sections of scottish society there is an elephant in the room:

The English vote. Its never really mentioned but its a very large number. I know some english folk that voted yes but they would be vastly outnumbered by No.

Not sure how this group can be persuaded to come onboard the happy bus next time.

yes, also the Northern Irish vote,,

people who were born in Scotland voted YES by 53%......

English YES ssers were around 27% , don't know NI number.....

[Toepoke]

English YES ssers were around 27%

Pretty significant if over 1 in 4 English people voted to leave the UK!...

Edited December 9, 2014 by Toepoke

[stocky]

Pretty significant if over 1 in 4 English people voted to leave the UK!...

a lot come up here to get away from the Imperial British Mindset.. I even convinced a right wing English Tory in our village to vote YES ... , of the three English guys I tried to convince I got two of them.

I have around 4-5 English YES voters at my work ( out of 35 staff) and a few Billy Brit English as well.

[Scunnered]

Always surprised how some people underestimate the amount of bigots there are amongst us.

Oh I don't. Its one of the reasons I dispute the often made claim that Scotland is more left leaning than rUK.

[Orraloon]

Oh I don't. Its one of the reasons I dispute the often made claim that Scotland is more left leaning than rUK.

Can folk not be "left leaning" and a bigot at the same time?

[Scunnered]

Can folk not be "left leaning" and a bigot at the same time?

Absolutely,it's just less heard of. Tommy Sheridan & Gorgeous George Galloway being the most publicly known ones I can think of. Edited December 9, 2014 by Scunnered

[Orraloon]

Absolutely,it's just less heard of. Tommy Sheridan & Gorgeous George Galloway being the most publicly known ones I can think of.

Wouldn't have thought you would have GGG in the "left leaning" pigeon hole?

[Scunnered]

Wouldn't have thought you would have GGG in the "left leaning" pigeon hole?

He's an opportunistic dickhead, but he does support many a socialist cause. The No voting equivalent of Sheridan I guess you could say.

[Rossy]

While I don't agree with all these points, I do agree that this is a seminal point for the SNP....a watershed, a crossroads etc etc.

Get the next 18 months right and they can be in power for a generation and set the wheels in motion for another referendum, get it wrong and they could be pushed aside and find it hard to come back.

Personally, and it's only my opinion, I think it would be disastrous for the SNP to lurch any further to the left and try to become the 'voice of working class Scotland'.

The only place to be in Scottish politics is right in the dead centre, and if the SNP jump to the left to try and take Labour's place, there's a danger that Labour will gain votes from the 'silent majority'.

The SNP need to be seen to be working for the (large) middle-class in Scotland, and not only to be desperate to make gains in the working class areas of west central Scotland.

It would be disastrous for the SNP to be seen as the party of the disaffected, of the protest vote, the fringes and of the 'lunatic left'. They need to make sure that they attract voters in affluent Scotland....without these votes the SNP will have real problems in the future.

[thplinth]

I can leave Sept 18th behind anytime I want.

Just by leaving Scotland behind since the 18th.

As for trying to win round no voting whanks, I could not give a what they do think or want. In fact whatever they want I am determined to make sure they do not get it.

[The Laud]

The yes voters are out collecting for foodbanks.

The no voters are sitting in their warm living rooms waiting on their winter fuel allowence coming through the door so they could buy some christmas presents.

[Rossy]

The yes voters are out collecting for foodbanks.

The no voters are sitting in their warm living rooms waiting on their winter fuel allowence coming through the door so they could buy some christmas presents.

That might be true, but these No voters are still the ones that the SNP needs to reach out to.

[Clyde1998]

12 "hard truths" (how many do you agree with?)

http://www.scotsman.com/news/gerry-hassan-indyref-12-hard-truths-1-3627532

Point 5 - "Yes won majority support in the C2 skilled working class, but lost the DE semi and unskilled working class."

Top 10 DE% by council area:

1. Inverclyde - 35.1% (5th highest Yes%)
2. North Ayrshire - 34.8% (6th)
3. West Dunbartonshire - 34.4% (2nd)
4. Glasgow - 34.0% (3rd)
5. North Lanarkshire - 33.1% (4th)
6. East Ayrshire - 32.8% (7th)
7. Clackmannanshire - 32.4% (12th)
8. Dundee City - 32.4% (1st)
9. Dumfries & Galloway - 31.9% (30th)
10. Renfrewshire - 29.8% (8th)

With the exception of Dumfries & Galloway, Yes won the high DE areas. In fact, all of the top eight yes areas were in the top ten. There's a 66.5% tolerance between Yes% and DE%.

For C2:

1. Orkney - 33.3% (32nd highest Yes%)
2. Shetland - 33.0% (29th)
3. Eilean Siar - 31.8% (10th)
4. Aberdeenshire - 29.9% (24th)
5. Dumfries & Galloway - 29.6% (30th)
6. Moray - 28.6% (18th)
7. Highland - 28.0% (9th)
8. Angus - 27.1% (16th)
9. East Ayrshire - 27.0% (7th)
10. Argyll & Bute - 26.2% (20th)

There's no pattern for C2% - only a 29.0% tolerance here. The bottom four were Dundee (1st), Glasgow (3rd), East Renfrewshire (28th) and Edinburgh (25th).

Yes won the high DE areas and no-one really won the high C2 areas.

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

The yes voters are out collecting for foodbanks.

The no voters are sitting in their warm living rooms waiting on their winter fuel allowence coming through the door so they could buy some christmas presents.

also bit selfish not cashing in their pension plans for gaming chips at Salmonds Palace

[Rossy]

also bit selfish not cashing in their pension plans for gaming chips at Salmonds Palace

It can also be validly pointed out that they've taken a gamble by voting to stay in the Union....UK pensioners get some of the worst deals and are some of the poorest in the western world.

It works both ways.

[Flure]

also bit selfish not cashing in their pension plans for gaming chips at Salmonds Palace

What does this mean?

[stocky]

Point 5 - "Yes won majority support in the C2 skilled working class, but lost the DE semi and unskilled working class."

Top 10 DE% by council area:

1. Inverclyde - 35.1% (5th highest Yes%)
2. North Ayrshire - 34.8% (6th)
3. West Dunbartonshire - 34.4% (2nd)
4. Glasgow - 34.0% (3rd)
5. North Lanarkshire - 33.1% (4th)
6. East Ayrshire - 32.8% (7th)
7. Clackmannanshire - 32.4% (12th)
8. Dundee City - 32.4% (1st)
9. Dumfries & Galloway - 31.9% (30th)
10. Renfrewshire - 29.8% (8th)

With the exception of Dumfries & Galloway, Yes won the high DE areas. In fact, all of the top eight yes areas were in the top ten. There's a 66.5% tolerance between Yes% and DE%.

For C2:

1. Orkney - 33.3% (32nd highest Yes%)
2. Shetland - 33.0% (29th)
3. Eilean Siar - 31.8% (10th)
4. Aberdeenshire - 29.9% (24th)
5. Dumfries & Galloway - 29.6% (30th)
6. Moray - 28.6% (18th)
7. Highland - 28.0% (9th)
8. Angus - 27.1% (16th)
9. East Ayrshire - 27.0% (7th)
10. Argyll & Bute - 26.2% (20th)

There's no pattern for C2% - only a 29.0% tolerance here. The bottom four were Dundee (1st), Glasgow (3rd), East Renfrewshire (28th) and Edinburgh (25th).

Yes won the high DE areas and no-one really won the high C2 areas.

sorry can u explain the %ages here please... did Inverclyde vote 35% yes in the DE sector? if so 65% voted no... please explain to a dummy like me .. ta

[Clyde1998]

sorry can u explain the %ages here please... did Inverclyde vote 35% yes in the DE sector? if so 65% voted no... please explain to a dummy like me .. ta

35% of people who live in Inverclyde fall into the DE sector.

The point being that a higher proportion of people in the DE sector in a council area made a yes vote much more likely in that area, contrary to what the article claims.

[exile]

on reflection...

the whole article hinges on the credibility of points 1 and 11.

1There is no 45... It provides no pathway to a Yes majority...

11Yes and No are over.

If these are true, and the world has moved on, then all the other points made are irrelevant, and the article is irrelevant, not even a footnote to history.

The other points - about Labour heartlands and working class this and that - are (only) relevant if 1 and 11 are false.

But how can 1 and 11 be credible? Surely all political movements are based on the assumption, or hope, that the support you had yesterday, can be bettered tomorrow...

[gonzoal]

I didn't get as far as reading the list in detail because in his introduction he makes the big mistake that all critics of people still being active make.

He talks in terms of the 45 and the 55 and the implication that those who voted NO are happy with the union as it is.

How many that voted no did so because devo max (or whatever you want to call it) was not an option at that point? By all accounts before the vote, this was the majority, so if you add those who voted no who wanted more to the 45 then this is the current majority that is being ignored by the media - they only go on about "you lost so get over it".

Do many of those who wanted independence or devo max (or believed Brown's as near Home Rule as possible" or "federalism") really believe the Smith Commission proposals come anywhere near this?

That is what it is about now and that is what people like Hassan should be writing about - not telling us how long it is since the referendum. They should be asking how long it will be before we get anything near what we were promised and questioniing any politician who repeats "the vow has been delivered" when feck all has been delivered but a fecking report, and one which, if it is implemented, will deliver feck all compared to what the "vow" promised.

[thorbotnic]

I didn't get as far as reading the list in detail because in his introduction he makes the big mistake that all critics of people still being active make.

He talks in terms of the 45 and the 55 and the implication that those who voted NO are happy with the union as it is.

How many that voted no did so because devo max (or whatever you want to call it) was not an option at that point? By all accounts before the vote, this was the majority, so if you add those who voted no who wanted more to the 45 then this is the current majority that is being ignored by the media - they only go on about "you lost so get over it".

Do many of those who wanted independence or devo max (or believed Brown's as near Home Rule as possible" or "federalism") really believe the Smith Commission proposals come anywhere near this?

That is what it is about now and that is what people like Hassan should be writing about - not telling us how long it is since the referendum. They should be asking how long it will be before we get anything near what we were promised and questioniing any politician who repeats "the vow has been delivered" when feck all has been delivered but a fecking report, and one which, if it is implemented, will deliver feck all compared to what the "vow" promised.

I absolutely agree with this, but wouldn't the same argument apply to many of those that voted 'yes'? How many who voted yes would have preferred devo max or home rule but as it wasn't on the ballot went for their second choice?