exile Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 12 "hard truths" (how many do you agree with?) http://www.scotsman.com/news/gerry-hassan-indyref-12-hard-truths-1-3627532 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Probably about 75% of it. Totally disagree with 2 and 12, and not sure about 6 and 7. Decent article though, I like Gerry's stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antidote Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Don't know what he wrote as I'll not give the scum newspaper the hit. Can you not copy and paste the important bits on here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora MaDonald Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Don't know what he wrote as I'll not give the scum newspaper the hit. Can you not copy and paste the important bits on here? Seconded. Fit's he on aboot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 1There is no 45... It provides no pathway to a Yes majority... 2There is a propensity to believe that Yes speaks for Scotland, missing that No won... 3The pro-Union majority did not vote out of selfishness, false consciousness or other reasons which can be dismissed. 4The Union case did not win just because of middle-class Scotland. 5The notion that Yes won working class Scotland is far too simple to be true and as problematic as placing middle class opinion completely in the No camp. 6Related to the above is the oft-repeated point that Yes won the Labour heartlands. This is wrong on both counts...develop a serious strategy towards Labour voters. 7Another powerful myth has been that the Yes vote was more mobilised than No. 8The mobilisation of No was about much more than Project Fear, the Vow and Gordon Brown’s late interventions. 9There are many different political communities in Scotland with numerous faultlines and divisions. 10Large parts of Yes did not really understand No. 11Yes and No are over. 12There can be no real Yes Alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peever1745 Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Utter unionist crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Virgin blocked me from viewing it due to "malicious content" . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Utter unionist crap. Well thought out and deep answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Zeppelin Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Well thought out and deep answer. "Succinct" is the word I'd use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Its also pish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I doubt Gerry Hassan would be too happy at being called a Unionist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_burger Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I'd agree with point 1 in the sense that there needs to be an inclusivity towards the idea of independence, if we are going to get it next time. most of it pish and wind though. hard truths for unionists. 1 nationalism didn't die post indy ref, it has gained leverage. telling people to move on and get over it is crass, undemocratic and frankly the behaviour of a delusional person 2 the unionists have to win the referendum everytime. yes only has to win once, and by 0.1 of a percentage. no amount of "political fault lines" or nitpicking over who won what vote will change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibi Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 11 is tripe. I still wear a Yes badge and the Yes car stickers are still in place. Just because we lost one game (with some dodgy refereeing) doesn't mean we give up playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbers Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I am still hurting since that horrid morning of the 19th September this pain will never leave me until we have achieved our goal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 1There is no 45... It provides no pathway to a Yes majority... 2There is a propensity to believe that Yes speaks for Scotland, missing that No won... 3The pro-Union majority did not vote out of selfishness, false consciousness or other reasons which can be dismissed. 4The Union case did not win just because of middle-class Scotland. 5The notion that Yes won working class Scotland is far too simple to be true and as problematic as placing middle class opinion completely in the No camp. 6Related to the above is the oft-repeated point that Yes won the Labour heartlands. This is wrong on both counts...develop a serious strategy towards Labour voters. 7Another powerful myth has been that the Yes vote was more mobilised than No. 8The mobilisation of No was about much more than Project Fear, the Vow and Gordon Brown’s late interventions. 9There are many different political communities in Scotland with numerous faultlines and divisions. 10Large parts of Yes did not really understand No. 11Yes and No are over. 12There can be no real Yes Alliance. Bolded the bits I agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Zeppelin Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) 1There is no 45... It provides no pathway to a Yes majority... 2There is a propensity to believe that Yes speaks for Scotland, missing that No won... 3The pro-Union majority did not vote out of selfishness, false consciousness or other reasons which can be dismissed. 4The Union case did not win just because of middle-class Scotland. 5The notion that Yes won working class Scotland is far too simple to be true and as problematic as placing middle class opinion completely in the No camp. 6Related to the above is the oft-repeated point that Yes won the Labour heartlands. This is wrong on both counts...develop a serious strategy towards Labour voters. 7Another powerful myth has been that the Yes vote was more mobilised than No. 8The mobilisation of No was about much more than Project Fear, the Vow and Gordon Brown’s late interventions. 9There are many different political communities in Scotland with numerous faultlines and divisions. 10Large parts of Yes did not really understand No. 11Yes and No are over. 12There can be no real Yes Alliance. I bolded the bits I agree with too. Edited December 9, 2014 by ek_celt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Bob Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 3The pro-Union majority did not vote out of selfishness, false consciousness or other reasons which can be dismissed. This is the bit I still can't get my head around. British nationalist old school Tories, I can understand their motivation. Reluctant 'soft nos' who think independence would be nice, but unaffordable, I can understand. But what percentage of no voters was this? And people like my parents, Scottish through and through but who in revel in talk of how shite Scotland is, how useless it would be without England, how they would move to England with independence, I have to admit this blows my mind and I can't get to the bottom of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stocky Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 The Working Class were also YES, although there is a large Orange working class who voted NO, obvious reasons here, but no mention of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 The Working Class were also YES, although there is a large Orange working class who voted NO, obvious reasons here, but no mention of this. There were plenty... Thousands even, perhaps hundreds of thousands of working class who voted No with no connection to the Orange Order. To believe otherwise is extremely Naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khana Lagur Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 1There is no 45... It provides no pathway to a Yes majority... 2There is a propensity to believe that Yes speaks for Scotland, missing that No won... 3The pro-Union majority did not vote out of selfishness, false consciousness or other reasons which can be dismissed. 4The Union case did not win just because of middle-class Scotland. 5The notion that Yes won working class Scotland is far too simple to be true and as problematic as placing middle class opinion completely in the No camp. 6Related to the above is the oft-repeated point that Yes won the Labour heartlands. This is wrong on both counts...develop a serious strategy towards Labour voters. 7Another powerful myth has been that the Yes vote was more mobilised than No. 8The mobilisation of No was about much more than Project Fear, the Vow and Gordon Brown’s late interventions. 9There are many different political communities in Scotland with numerous faultlines and divisions. 10Large parts of Yes did not really understand No. 11Yes and No are over. 12There can be no real Yes Alliance. 2) So, if - by his logic - Yes does not speak for Scotland, then No does? The correct conclusion is that 45% of those who voted Yes voted for independence. That is all that can be claimed. Never heard any Yes voter claim they speak for Scotland. Stop making it up, Gerry.. 3) Again that's too simple a conclusion. Many may have voted No for selfish reasons - he can't know that without speaking to them all individually. While respecting people's reasons for voting No, you have to wonder how many who did ever got beyond fear (most humans' default position) and seriously looked into the arguments for and against. Again, we can't know the answer to that. 11) Nah, as long as the issue remains independence or Union, then Yes and No will continue in some form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) There were plenty... Thousands even, perhaps hundreds of thousands of working class who voted No with no connection to the Orange Order. To believe otherwise is extremely Naive. no connection but similar reasons for voting no. Being a cúnt or being thick is a bit like being in the Orange Order Edited December 9, 2014 by brant grebner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stocky Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 There were plenty... Thousands even, perhaps hundreds of thousands of working class who voted No with no connection to the Orange Order. To believe otherwise is extremely Naive. I don't doubt that, but the Orange vote was around 150,000, mostly working class, it only needed 192000 votes to swing the other way..... so Orangeism played a massive part, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 no connection but similar reasons for voting no. Being a cúnt or being thick is a bit like being in the Orange Order They'll be swayed by that argument. If you want my tuppence (which many of you won't), parts of the Yes campaign did not do enough to engage with the working class. In my experience the No voters who were open to be convinced far outnumber the ones who were too Naive, uninformed, or did so out of prejudice... But maybe I just know brighter people than most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jailender Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I don't doubt that, but the Orange vote was around 150,000, mostly working class, it only needed 192000 votes to swing the other way..... so Orangeism played a massive part, Really ??? The OO has 150000 active members or supporters in Scotland ? 3% or so of the entire Scottish population involved in the OO. I would doubt that very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie x Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) Since we are blocking up sections of scottish society there is an elephant in the room: The English vote. Its never really mentioned but its a very large number. I know some english folk that voted yes but they would be vastly outnumbered by No. Not sure how this group can be persuaded to come onboard the happy bus next time. Edited December 9, 2014 by johnnie x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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