Victory shield

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

See we lost 1-0 to the Republic today. The results for the young teams aren't really improving on the whole, considering the performance schools are in full flow throughout now.

[henry george]

I watched the second half and we were fortunate not to get a much heavier defeat against a clearly superior Irish side (what are they doing well, that we're not!).  This, combined with the poor showing of the U17's the other week (failed at the 1st qualification stage) must raise questions about the quality of recruitment and coaching at the performance schools.

[GHfaeGTA]

Can’t put blame completely on the performance schools. Only 8 out of the 20 in the squad are at the performance schools 

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

2-2 against N Ireland

[ProudScot]

12 minutes ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

2-2 against N Ireland

Watched the first half on the SNT YouTube channel. We were 1-0 up but they looked technically better. Poor couple of results. 

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

16 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Watched the first half on the SNT YouTube channel. We were 1-0 up but they looked technically better. Poor couple of results. 

Technically better? Isn't that what we're meant to aiming at 🤦 the problem is we're seeing a lot of our youngsters going to England's top teams (which is good) but I think a large part of it is more to do with Brexit and the club's hoping to unearth a diamond because of not being able to sign EU youngsters until 18

[henry george]

I think we played a lot better in the first half than the previous match and completely dominated.  Second half (after several changes) the situation was reversed with N ireland totally dominant until the last 10 minutes.  Was impressed with the boys, Glasgow (Hearts) and Smith (Rangers).

 

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

The results are disappointing but in my opinion the best of our young players are significantly better than they have been previously. If the PS system gives us 1 or 2 genuine international class players per year it probably won't be enough to impact results at age grade level but should over time have a significant impact on the outcomes in the main squad. The PS system was designed to give us our first main squad player in 2020 (which it did). We have now had 3 in the squad (Gilmour, Patterson, Max Johnston) and there are another 4 or 5 that have a chance to break through in the next few years (I'd be hoping by the end of the 2025/26 season to see Barron for sure and perhaps one or two from Wilson, One, Charlie McArthur, Dylan Reid and others). The system *should* you would think be getting better each year too.

[stitch]

I have been wondering if our coaches are good enough at youth level. We seem to have had a few players that have played youth level for us but not stayed with us.

We also had Hicky turn down playing for the u21 to get more time with his club.

Are players like Anderson turning us down thinking our setup is rubbish. He maybe a bad example but just looking at him as he is the latest one.

I know a lot has been said about Gemmill not being good enough and holds the players back, plays the wrong formation,players in wrong positions ect ect. Are the coaches good enough at our other youth teams? Let alone the performance schools...

[Diamond Scot]

2 hours ago, stitch said:

I have been wondering if our coaches are good enough at youth level. We seem to have had a few players that have played youth level for us but not stayed with us.

We also had Hicky turn down playing for the u21 to get more time with his club.

Are players like Anderson turning us down thinking our setup is rubbish. He maybe a bad example but just looking at him as he is the latest one.

I know a lot has been said about Gemmill not being good enough and holds the players back, plays the wrong formation,players in wrong positions ect ect. Are the coaches good enough at our other youth teams? Let alone the performance schools...

Our attitude towards youth coaches isnt good enough in this country. In places like Holland youth coaches can be paid almost in line with 1st team coaches depending on their ability.

We seem to be producing more players who are comfortable on the ball which is encouraging but our young players are very poor tactically. I imagine its because neither the coaches or players think that side of the game is very interesting.

I rarely watch live Italian football anymore but watched abit last week. Tactically its like a different game from Scottish football. The players are so well drilled.

I wonder how much time per week the average 16 year old spends on phases of play, positioning, game management etc. I remember watching something Gilmour was in where he said a huge difference at Chelsea was the amount of time he had to do looking at things like that. He had tapes of himself and then top players in his position to study, an attribute database thing which graded him and set tasks to improve specific things etc.

[saintsparky]

We need to have a proper international training set up, similar to St Georges in England. If someone comes to play for Scotland, and finds themselves training at Lesser Hampden that is an embarrassment. 

We need a facility that all the teams train at, right through the age groups, with video facilities and a full indoor pitch as well.

That is how we will improve all round...

[Scot1]

13 minutes ago, saintsparky said:

We need to have a proper international training set up, similar to St Georges in England. If someone comes to play for Scotland, and finds themselves training at Lesser Hampden that is an embarrassment. 

We need a facility that all the teams train at, right through the age groups, with video facilities and a full indoor pitch as well.

That is how we will improve all round...

I completely agree with this, I started a thread stating that any investment we get from co-hosting the EURO’s should be aimed in this direction rather than at refurbishing Hampden. 
We need a National Football Centre, a centre for all ages, for both the men and women and also a hub for sports science and coaching. 
 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Scot1

[Burj_Alba]

6 hours ago, saintsparky said:

We need to have a proper international training set up, similar to St Georges in England. If someone comes to play for Scotland, and finds themselves training at Lesser Hampden that is an embarrassment. 

We need a facility that all the teams train at, right through the age groups, with video facilities and a full indoor pitch as well.

That is how we will improve all round...

Thought this is what the Oriam was supposed to do?  A few people on here sort of suggested that part of Anderson's decision to be "unsure" about his international future stemmed from the training facilities at Lesser Hampden. Shouldn't have played a part in that decision but can see his point. 

[Tartan blood]

20 hours ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

The results are disappointing but in my opinion the best of our young players are significantly better than they have been previously. If the PS system gives us 1 or 2 genuine international class players per year it probably won't be enough to impact results at age grade level but should over time have a significant impact on the outcomes in the main squad. The PS system was designed to give us our first main squad player in 2020 (which it did). We have now had 3 in the squad (Gilmour, Patterson, Max Johnston) and there are another 4 or 5 that have a chance to break through in the next few years (I'd be hoping by the end of the 2025/26 season to see Barron for sure and perhaps one or two from Wilson, One, Charlie McArthur, Dylan Reid and others). The system *should* you would think be getting better each year too.

Calvin Ramsay is a performance school graduate. So that's 3 that have been capped. Johnston wasn't capped but was involved with the squad. So was Leon King a while back. Though that was only ever with the intention of training, I think. 

Lowry is also a PS kid. Difficult to say if he'll ever end up as a senior player. A lot of Rangers fans seemed to be pretty adamant he was going to be the next big thing. 

Liam Morrison is another and still only 20. Hanley and Cooper won't last more than a couple more years, you'd think. He could be their long term replacement.

Was Barry Hepburn a PS graduate? I can't remember. Surprised he isn't in the u21s yet. Though we are pretty stacked at the moment.

[Arbroath1320]

Mark Wotte used to get pelters from the dinosaurs who masqueraded as Scottish youth coaches. He always said that the purpose of the youth teams was not to win matches at youth level (it's nice if they do, obviously) but to provide players for the senior team. A lot of fantastic young prospects (remember Feruz?) don't go on to make it at senior level, for whatever reason. If a youth team produces one player who goes on to become an important player for Scotland, that's more useful than getting to the World Cup final like the Under-16s did in 1989 with a group of players who never went anywhere.  

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

1 hour ago, Tartan blood said:

Calvin Ramsay is a performance school graduate. So that's 3 that have been capped. Johnston wasn't capped but was involved with the squad. So was Leon King a while back. Though that was only ever with the intention of training, I think. 

Lowry is also a PS kid. Difficult to say if he'll ever end up as a senior player. A lot of Rangers fans seemed to be pretty adamant he was going to be the next big thing. 

Liam Morrison is another and still only 20. Hanley and Cooper won't last more than a couple more years, you'd think. He could be their long term replacement.

Was Barry Hepburn a PS graduate? I can't remember. Surprised he isn't in the u21s yet. Though we are pretty stacked at the moment.

Gosh, you are right - completely forgot about Ramsay!

The SFA are quite odd on how they present PS kids, I *think* it is only if they graduate (I.e. complete the full 4 years) rather than if they participate. So if Morrison for instance goes on to play for Munich they will not include him as a PS player on their team sheets etc. because he didn’t complete the course, even if being in the system as long as he was played a big part in getting his move in the first place. They aren’t even consistent on this point tbh though and seem to chop and change between including some names as PS and not.

[Tartan blood]

47 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Gosh, you are right - completely forgot about Ramsay!

The SFA are quite odd on how they present PS kids, I *think* it is only if they graduate (I.e. complete the full 4 years) rather than if they participate. So if Morrison for instance goes on to play for Munich they will not include him as a PS player on their team sheets etc. because he didn’t complete the course, even if being in the system as long as he was played a big part in getting his move in the first place. They aren’t even consistent on this point tbh though and seem to chop and change between including some names as PS and not.

I have zero faith in getting any accurate info about the performance schools from the SFA. The website is a joke. And when the squad announcements come out, sometimes a player will have a JD badge next to their name and sometimes they won't. It's a flip of the coin whether Leon King and Alex Lowry have the badge. 

It would be great if there was someone involved with the schools that could provide updates. Or even just a list of players that have gone on to get contracts with professional teams. 

Celtic and Dundee Utd have their own version of performance schools, which doesn't get any recognition either.

Edit: Leon King didn't get the JD badge in the most recent u21s squad announcement...

Edited November 11, 2023 by Tartan blood

[GHfaeGTA]

2 hours ago, Tartan blood said:

Calvin Ramsay is a performance school graduate. So that's 3 that have been capped. Johnston wasn't capped but was involved with the squad. So was Leon King a while back. Though that was only ever with the intention of training, I think. 

Lowry is also a PS kid. Difficult to say if he'll ever end up as a senior player. A lot of Rangers fans seemed to be pretty adamant he was going to be the next big thing. 

Liam Morrison is another and still only 20. Hanley and Cooper won't last more than a couple more years, you'd think. He could be their long term replacement.

Was Barry Hepburn a PS graduate? I can't remember. Surprised he isn't in the u21s yet. Though we are pretty stacked at the moment.

If Kai Fotheringham can’t get in U21 squad at present, no chance Hepburn makes it. As someone else said, Dundee United have their own version of a performance school. Both goals last night scored by 20 year old lads who came through that school along with Declan Glass who came on as a sub and another 4 on the Bench including a 16 year old 

Edited November 11, 2023 by GHfaeGTA

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

7 hours ago, Arbroath1320 said:

Mark Wotte used to get pelters from the dinosaurs who masqueraded as Scottish youth coaches. He always said that the purpose of the youth teams was not to win matches at youth level (it's nice if they do, obviously) but to provide players for the senior team. A lot of fantastic young prospects (remember Feruz?) don't go on to make it at senior level, for whatever reason. If a youth team produces one player who goes on to become an important player for Scotland, that's more useful than getting to the World Cup final like the Under-16s did in 1989 with a group of players who never went anywhere.  

Even if the younger teams don't win every game, playing similar home nations should give us an indication how our initially, much lauded performance schools are fairing, especially since have any of the other nations even got any themselves? 

Not even being able to beat any of them isn't a great advert

Edited November 11, 2023 by Bobby Russell's Lovechild

[Squirrelhumper]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:26 AM, Tartan blood said:

 

Was Barry Hepburn a PS graduate? I can't remember. Surprised he isn't in the u21s yet. Though we are pretty stacked at the moment.

Barry Hepburn is playing for a rubbish Championship side. 

There's guys like David Watson who is playing every week in the top flight who can't get in the 21s. No idea why TBH!

[ProudScot]

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Barry Hepburn is playing for a rubbish Championship side. 

There's guys like David Watson who is playing every week in the top flight who can't get in the 21s. No idea why TBH!

It’s bonkers Watson isn’t in the 21s, agreed. 

 

[ProudScot]

Also the PS thing is pointless in terms of next to the players name. In 15 years time is a 37 year old Nathan Patterson going to have PS next to his name to reflect something in his career he did 20-25 years ago when he has 84 Scotland caps 

[Tartan blood]

11 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Barry Hepburn is playing for a rubbish Championship side. 

There's guys like David Watson who is playing every week in the top flight who can't get in the 21s. No idea why TBH!

Just by virtue of being on the books for Bayern Munich, I'd have thought he'd be involved. I haven't seen him play all that much, so don't really know if he is even deserving of a place.

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

On 11/11/2023 at 4:32 PM, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

Even if the younger teams don't win every game, playing similar home nations should give us an indication how our initially, much lauded performance schools are fairing, especially since have any of the other nations even got any themselves? 

Not even being able to beat any of them isn't a great advert

This is actually one of the things that most annoys me about our youth set-up. Gemmill in particular is on record repeatedly as saying that his job is not to win games but to bring players through to the full side. Why in the name of fuck then does he not play the same system as the main team? Surely if that is the goal you do it like Barcelona and have every team from U5s up playing exactly the same way so players can slot in seamlessly and know their role inside out. That way we can also test out players like Doak who don't seem to naturally fit into our system to see where they would best work. It's just so poorly thought out. I'm actually a bit disappointed not to have seen Clarke get involved and sort it out tbh.

[borojock]

9 hours ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

This is actually one of the things that most annoys me about our youth set-up. Gemmill in particular is on record repeatedly as saying that his job is not to win games but to bring players through to the full side. Why in the name of fuck then does he not play the same system as the main team? Surely if that is the goal you do it like Barcelona and have every team from U5s up playing exactly the same way so players can slot in seamlessly and know their role inside out. That way we can also test out players like Doak who don't seem to naturally fit into our system to see where they would best work. It's just so poorly thought out. I'm actually a bit disappointed not to have seen Clarke get involved and sort it out tbh.

Cant agree more with your points - shame as well as its such a pivotal age group that should play a foundational role in our succession planning - as players are getting older we should be looking to gradually rotate them out and ideally many of those players would come from the U21's