Indyref 2 (2)

[hampden_loon2878]

I will not and can not vote for the snp at this  next election. I am a member and a nationalist to the core however until the realisation of what sturgeon has done to the party becomes apparent then we can not move forward. I like the lad who’s standing in our area but he hasn’t a hope in hell of winning it. My grandfather campaigned with all the big guns of the snp, salmond, murrell,Robertson, Ewing, the lot so it has always been independence at all costs, my mother was the same until recently, to my shock she turned round yesterday and said that boy roon should be scrapped as it’s turned into a joke.. I was gutted to hear that and argued that bad governance doesn’t mean a bad parliament,,, just gives me the fear that my mam who drilled independence into me can turn like that and tbh she won’t be alone… I truely believe that most of you will get the shock of yer lives at the next election 

[Hertsscot]

2 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

My mother was the same until recently, to my shock she turned round yesterday and said that boy roon should be scrapped as it’s turned into a joke.. I was gutted to hear that and argued that bad governance doesn’t mean a bad parliament.

Your last point is really important. My only response to your mum would be that direct rule from WM would be much, much worse. I've been amazed since moving up how naive some Scots are about England, you'd think judging by some people that Scotland is the only part of the UK that has a cost of living crisis, food banks, problems getting a dentist, NHS waiting lists, potholes etc. etc.

[Hertsscot]

7 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Scenario 2: Scots wanting independence get behind the SNP en-masse and their vote share holds up or even improves. The unionist parties shrug and claim not every SNP voter supports independence and so the current situation lingers on. However, at least a modicum of pressure is kept up and more people in Scotland may see Westminster for the undemocratic body it is for flatly saying no to IndyRef2.

Humza has said that independence will be right at the centre of the SNP GE campaign and the first line of the manifesto. If that happens then it will be harder for Unionist parties to dismiss votes for the SNP as not being votes for indy.

[Orraloon]

I can't be the only person thinking WTF is "boy roon". I grew up speaking Doric, but that one has got me fair bamboozled. 

[Hertsscot]

17 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I can't be the only person thinking WTF is "boy roon". I grew up speaking Doric, but that one has got me fair bamboozled. 

Think it's meant to be Holyrood.

[Ally Bongo]

Nobody has went into the variables of what happens if the SNP get hammered at the General Election apart from the SNP getting a new leader and/or Alba riding in to save the day 

Everybody for it thinks that they would reset and recover quickly for the Holyrood elections - but that might not happen

The ramifications for Independence as mentioned would be all negative

Then again as i said that is what the current SNP are banking on

[hampden_loon2878]

26 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I can't be the only person thinking WTF is "boy roon". I grew up speaking Doric, but that one has got me fair bamboozled. 

Aye shit spelling with auto correct 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

I will not and can not vote for the snp at this  next election. I am a member and a nationalist to the core however until the realisation of what sturgeon has done to the party becomes apparent then we can not move forward. I like the lad who’s standing in our area but he hasn’t a hope in hell of winning it. My grandfather campaigned with all the big guns of the snp, salmond, murrell,Robertson, Ewing, the lot so it has always been independence at all costs, my mother was the same until recently, to my shock she turned round yesterday and said that boy roon should be scrapped as it’s turned into a joke.. I was gutted to hear that and argued that bad governance doesn’t mean a bad parliament,,, just gives me the fear that my mam who drilled independence into me can turn like that and tbh she won’t be alone… I truely believe that most of you will get the shock of yer lives at the next election 

Sorry Loon but absolutely no one who is committed to independence would ever suggest Holyrood should be scrapped. Unless it was in a moment of frustration and anger which I think is most likely the case. 

At times Holyrood lets itself down badly, however compared to the circus that is Westminster , Holyrood is a mere novice in pantomime performance. Holyrood at least runs as a democracy. The never ending 2 horse race at Westminster and the HoL is an affront to any suggestion that the UK Government is a modern and fair system .

1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

Your last point is really important. My only response to your mum would be that direct rule from WM would be much, much worse. I've been amazed since moving up how naive some Scots are about England, you'd think judging by some people that Scotland is the only part of the UK that has a cost of living crisis, food banks, problems getting a dentist, NHS waiting lists, potholes etc. etc.

People think that as it’s the only thing they hear in the media. I am not even saying its always deliberate ( though I suspect there is a huge agenda) , the downside of having your own regional broadcasting is it focuses on your particular area and that is all people hear. I would however expect someone who is invested in independence to be aware of this. 

[Malcolm]

21 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

It is now official that the SNP's message is that if you don't vote SNP at the next election Independence is off the table.

I have said ages ago that this was the SNP mindset and is tantamount to blackmail

In other words they are going to stick with an unpopular leader and tell the other Independence parties to fuck off hoping that this threat will win over SNP voter apathy and keep them on the gravy train

A dangerous, and at this point in time, stupid tactic

 

a very stupid tactic, but what I would expect from incompetent thickies.

 

[Ally Bongo]

15 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

a very stupid tactic, but what I would expect from troughers

 

FTFY

[Hertsscot]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

People think that as it’s the only thing they hear in the media. I am not even saying its always deliberate ( though I suspect there is a huge agenda) , the downside of having your own regional broadcasting is it focuses on your particular area and that is all people hear. 

Totally agree. 

[StirlingEgg]

At this point I don't think it matters what the SNP does or proposes. Folk are so desperate to get the Tories out they think the best option is to vote Labour. It doesn't really matter what Scotland's electorate do anyway, it'll be spun as a negative for Independence. It's all hugely frustrating but even if we did have a uniting person or party, the UK govt/media will play dirty. We don't have that same luxury or range of tactics available at all...kind of the point of why we need to be a normal independent country. 

Edited January 8 by StirlingEgg

[Ally Bongo]

10 minutes ago, StirlingEgg said:

At this point I don't think it matters what the SNP does or proposes. Folk are so desperate to get the Tories out they think the best option is to vote Labour. It doesn't really matter what Scotland's electorate do anyway, it'll be spun as a negative for Independence. It's all hugely frustrating but even if we did have a uniting person or party, the UK govt/media will play dirty. We don't have that same luxury or range of tactics available at all...kind of the point of why we need to be a normal independent country. 

There is Scotland United however it is the SNP that doesn't want it

[StirlingEgg]

4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

There is Scotland United however it is the SNP that doesn't want it

Is it not a bit too late for that to make an impact for this election though, or are you thinking further ahead? Just got a bad feeling about this election generally and the fallout. 

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, StirlingEgg said:

Is it not a bit too late for that to make an impact for this election though, or are you thinking further ahead? Just got a bad feeling about this election generally and the fallout. 

Aye the chance for it to be a tactic in this years GE has gone

[Ally Bongo]

If you look at Ash Regan's tweet showing up Tommy Sheppard's "Vote for us or Independence is dead" comments you will see the problem 

Half are in agreement and the other half are SNP loyalists

[TDYER63]

11 hours ago, StirlingEgg said:

Is it not a bit too late for that to make an impact for this election though, or are you thinking further ahead? Just got a bad feeling about this election generally and the fallout. 

The only way Scotland united will happen is for the SNP literally to be on their knees . The zoom meeting I attended on independence a couple of months ago made that very clear. Scotland united was very quickly shot down by fairly senior SNP figures when I suggested it , and the rest of the people at the meeting seemed to agree with them. They said that giving fringe parties a say in  government policy would be disruptive. There really is a huge dislike of AS amongst a lot of SNP members. 
I was told they had a good working relationship with the Greens and that basically no more was needed. I think the irony of showing concern that fringe party policy would be disruptive, then citing the greens as good working partners,  was lost on them. 
Meanwhile I have a branch meeting on Wednesday where , to quote the email ‘ the main topic of conversation will be the upcoming Burns supper ‘

🙄

I personally think Believe in Scotland are the way to go to promote independence. They seem to be fairly impartial on the various independence parties and at times act like the  only adults in the room. Not sure if I am missing something as they rarely get mentioned on here. 

[Alibi]

2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Meanwhile I have a branch meeting on Wednesday where , to quote the email ‘ the main topic of conversation will be the upcoming Burns supper ‘

🙄

I personally think Believe in Scotland are the way to go to promote independence. They seem to be fairly impartial on the various independence parties and at times act like the  only adults in the room. Not sure if I am missing something as they rarely get mentioned on here. 

That's exactly why I gave up going to branch meetings.

Regarding Tommy Sheppard's comment, I think the way it's been reported has been twisted by the MSM.  If the SNP have a very bad result at the UK election, the media line will be that indy is dead, off the table, everyone is pro union and proud brits - i think that's what Tommy was actually saying.  The thing is though that I don't think support for indy will fall; once people realise that Labour are just tories in practice, anti EU, pro brexit, in favour of tuition fees, prescription charges, genocide in the middle east etc. etc., there will be a strong reaction, similat to after 2014.  Indy folk are not going back in their box.  As for SNP members hating Salmond, that might be true with some of the feeble minded sturgeonites and the wokerati faction, but as a long term member (lapsed) I still have the greatest of admiration for Alex even though I don't see Alba getting anywhere fast.  The splits in the indy movement haven't happened by accident, and I think Sturgeon is involved in the  whether voluntarily or due to someone putting pressure on her for some dirt they have on file.

Edited January 9 by Alibi

[PapofGlencoe]

12 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Regarding Tommy Sheppard's comment, I think the way it's been reported has been twisted by the MSM.  If the SNP have a very bad result at the UK election, the media line will be that indy is dead, off the table, everyone is pro union and proud brits - i think that's what Tommy was actually saying.  The thing is though that I don't think support for indy will fall; once people realise that Labour are just tories in practice, anti EU, pro brexit, in favour of tuition fees, prescription charges, genocide in the middle east etc. etc.

I think Tommy Sheppard is right about how it will be portrayed.

It's unknown how the inevitable "independence is dead" narrative will affect underlying support.  I tend to think Scots, of both yes and no persuasion, know fine well it won't be dead but any movement forward will have been delayed.  Triumphantly declaring it dead will have an undesired result for unionism I think, in the next political cycle.

The older you get the more you see politics is about defining moments and cycles.  Salmond and Sturgeon took Scotland to defining moments but Scottish voters weren't ready to take the step en masse.  The independence movement needs to hang on in there, just like Scottish Labour have done until the next round.  they've done nothing but wait until SNP and Tories have become unpopular.  It'll happen to Labour too.

it'll need a charismatic leader and positivity.  The attribute SNP and Yes had was optimism and good humour previously, feel like its lost its most important characteristic.  

[hampden_loon2878]

IMHO it’s only a matter of time before those in alba come back over to the SNP. The size of the thumping we will get at the GE will shock all those independence minded folk to unite back under the SNP umbrella 

[Ally Bongo]

It's also only a matter of time before England's fresh water becomes unfit for human consumption and they drain Scotland's other resource 

You may well laugh

[Alibi]

6 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

It's also only a matter of time before England's fresh water becomes unfit for human consumption and they drain Scotland's other resource 

You may well laugh

Nothing to laugh about.  IIRC plans are already being prepared to build a trunk main across the border.  We need to ensure there's a stop valve incorporated to allow us to cut off their supply...

[Ally Bongo]

Marjorie Ellis Thompson of Edinburgh writes:

TOM Gordon's piece on Tommy Sheppard quotes him as saying: "How can we make sure this country's journey to having autonomy over its own affairs and resources does not stop after two decades of remarkable progress?"

Scotland made great strides under the leadership of Alex Salmond, who according to your columnist Rosemary Goring has too much personality ("Politicians need (some) personality", The Herald, January 8), but the last decade has been at best a holding operation. Sensible deals with health, education and rail workers have protected us from the ravages down south but we still suffer from the "allowance" handed out by the English government known as the Barnett Formula whilst billions in our energy resources go to prop up the failing UK state and we pay more to heat our homes.

Meanwhile those on the SNP benches at the Palace of Enchantments have little to show for their time there (with a few honourable exceptions), leaving Alex Salmond's Alba to make the running.

Why, for example does Neale Hanvey have to be the one persistently raising independence, and why is it Kenny MacAskill raising the closure of Grangemouth in an adjournment debate tomorrow evening?

We need a vision and a way forward and it is sadly not to be found coming from the SNP's Westminster contingent despite Stephen Flynn's improved leadership - with the numbers there the party could be making the case for independence not just at Prime Minister's Questions but at Business Questions, through Private Member's Bills, Ten Minute Rule Bills, Private Notice Questions, requests for debates under Standing Order number 10 and a myriad of other ways.

Many years ago as a lobbyist first for CND and then for the Royal College of Nursing I would travel throughout England, Scotland and Wales (and in the latter case Northern Ireland) explaining how Parliament worked and encouraging members to find out what their MPs had done or said on the issues which concerned them. We had a retired civil servant cutting up Hansard and sending excerpts to local parliamentary monitors. I also handed out the number of the Commons public information office, 0207 2194272, which remains unchanged, suggesting people ring up and ask for a printout of their MP's activities on defence or health issues.

If people really want to know what their MP has said and done about independence I would encourage them to do likewise."

[StirlingEgg]

10 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I personally think Believe in Scotland are the way to go to promote independence. They seem to be fairly impartial on the various independence parties and at times act like the  only adults in the room. Not sure if I am missing something as they rarely get mentioned on here. 

I find their emails quite informative but it's that contradiction, one of many, with Scotland’s politics where straightforward answers are demanded of complex issues. Therefore not enough folk read up on the context or any background to proposals or issues noted by the likes of Believe in Scotland. Proposals are all they can be regardless of whether coming from SNP, Alba or whoever. 

Not sure if it was Ally or Alibi but someone said something about the SNP being split 50/50 which is maybe a reflection of Scotland too. Those demanding answers and others demanding action; neither of which can be met within current UK framework. 

You can take an arse to the toilet but you can't make it shit! 

Edited January 9 by StirlingEgg

[Ally Bongo]

Newly elected spunkstain Michael Shanks to deliver speech at Scotland in Union's "burns supper" night

This is what the SNP foisted on us and it will be the same with Torquil Crichton and others