Indyref 2 (2)

[scotlad]

6 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

its crystal clear what's going on,, 

Absolutely; this character who rocked up from London a couple of years ago has taken the old "what about Orkney and the Shetlands?" red herring that used to get coughed up by unionists on a semi-regular basis (always in a sneering voice) and has taken the first steps to turn it into a policy. Divide and rule.

FWIW, I'd have no issue, in principle, with the Shetlands having more local autonomy, if that's what they want, but introducing it to the mix at this stage of the game is either naive in the extreme or badly disguised sabotage.

5 hours ago, aaid said:

I was trying to find an interview yesterday with her from a few years back where *she* essentially confirmed that.  Apparently she was at a dinner party in 2012 and she was at a dinner party when the subject came up and all the others were of the opinion she’d be on the No side and they were all shocked - including the ex-husband - when she said she was more on the Yes side.

I’m not saying she’s not an independence supporter but she’s always struck me as someone who saw an opportunity to advance herself.  She put herself forwards as a candidate for WM in 2015.  

In common with someone who she shares a party with again, Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh.

Its pretty obvious who was pushing Tasmina’s career, I wonder if it was the same one with Ash?

I know what you mean, there are a few similarities between them - the main one being neither of them are particularly good. They both look the part; telegenic and well presented, and they talk a good game, in a management-speaky kind of way, but they're both very superficial. Almost like AI politicians. I don't see the genius in either of them.

[aaid]

33 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

You most certainly have lied, remember calling me a cock sucker when you had a little “moment” I most certainly am not a cock sucker. I also remember the slander against salmond that poured from you into this forum regarding salmond. You may not claim to be right however you think you are and are very dangerous with it, the same way the current snp administration are dangerous in their rock solid belief that what they are doing is right, despite the walls falling in around them. I have wound you up but not lied, or spread rumours,, I have spoke about rumours that are out there but not actually said what the rumours are, I also believe these “rumours” to be more than rumours. 

I’ve got a wide vocabulary of offensive language but that’s not a phrase I use, so I think you’re talking shite.  

[aaid]

On 7/5/2023 at 12:36 PM, Alibi said:

Away and fuck yourself, you pathetic cocksucker.  

Oh look, it was actually *me* who was being caled a cocksucker.  

[Hertsscot]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

So what is your problem then?

The Greens got 200,000 votes, that’s why they have relevance. 

My problem is under FPTP they would have no voice at all, so I'm wondering why they even bothered to stand at the HW and Rutherglen by-election thus potentially splitting the Yes vote.

[hampden_loon2878]

10 hours ago, aaid said:

I’ve got a wide vocabulary of offensive language but that’s not a phrase I use, so I think you’re talking shite.  

no i am most certainly not, thplinth jumped on it right away,, it was a beuty,, you 100% said that, it was surprising as you hold yourself pretty well but let yourself down on that occassion, it was in the thread that you had deleted..you said it dont pretend you dont remember 

[hampden_loon2878]

10 hours ago, aaid said:

Oh look, it was actually *me* who was being caled a cocksucker.  

it was in the indy ref threat round about april 2021

[aaid]

33 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

it was in the indy ref threat round about april 2021

Oh, in the big thread that got deleted and your witness is the guy who got banned and had the thread deleted for calling me a paedophile, that’s all very convenient, isn’t it.  

It didn’t happen.  It’s just your usual fantasy land bollocks.  
 

 

[PapofGlencoe]

38 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

it was in the indy ref threat round about april 2021

if anything it's aaid that's been getting abuse from what ive seen.  while ive seen toys thrown out a bit, i've never seen abuse from this poster.  

the poster is on a forum talking about independence most days, why goad him constantly asking if he supports independence?  

it would be easy to agree the SNP need destroyed to please people on this forum but it's not the view of many committed independence supporters.  It doesn't make them the enemy.  

do i agree the SNP (online anyway) appears to be full of ungrateful, unlikeable, intolerant wee charlatans? yes.  Does that mean everyone in the SNP are like this? no.  I don't agree with the SNP's current strategy and think there's potential bad actors at play (on all sides of this debate) but there is another view worthy of respect.

If im being honest, i think a cohort of the movement have been watching too many youtube videos based on US issues of identity politics and wokeness, getting it twisted into the Scotland's national cause.  by the way, I think that's the case on both sides. Added to the Salmond issue, which neither side are willing to conciliate on to any extent whatsoever and operate in different, probably flawed realities. We have divide and rule.

[Alibi]

On 10/29/2023 at 4:56 PM, aaid said:

No they’re not.   Lorna Slater was asked would the Greens be prepared to work with a future Labour Government.  Her response was that they’d speak to anyone they have common ground with but it’s difficult to see what common ground the Greens have with Labour as she doesn’t know what Labour stands for.

That's disingenuous.  Slater was asked if independence was a red line for the greens - she said "absolutely not".  In other words they'd be happy to do a volte face in the interests of their political "careers".  And that's the point where a proper SNP leader would have announced that the Bute House agreement was over and that the SNP would govern as a minority government - which would I think see the SNP's polling figures improve.  the Greens could then decide if they wanted to throw away any principles of if they would continue to support indy (not that there's much chance of them actually having to demonstrate that at the moment.

[aaid]

21 minutes ago, Alibi said:

That's disingenuous.  Slater was asked if independence was a red line for the greens - she said "absolutely not".  In other words they'd be happy to do a volte face in the interests of their political "careers".  And that's the point where a proper SNP leader would have announced that the Bute House agreement was over and that the SNP would govern as a minority government - which would I think see the SNP's polling figures improve.  the Greens could then decide if they wanted to throw away any principles of if they would continue to support indy (not that there's much chance of them actually having to demonstrate that at the moment.

No it’s not.  You need to watch the whole movie interview and then think about which hypothetical set of circumstances that would have to come about to make it happen.  

The SNP have always had the point of view of “put independence to one side and work with us”.

You clearly have a problem with the Greens and blame them the SNP polling going down.   Where is that vote going?   Some is going to Labour - soft Indy types - some is going to the Greens - typically younger people - some is going to don’t know.  Very little is going to Alba.  How does casting off the greens help the SNP.

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, PapofGlencoe said:

if anything it's aaid that's been getting abuse from what ive seen.  while ive seen toys thrown out a bit, i've never seen abuse from this poster.  

the poster is on a forum talking about independence most days, why goad him constantly asking if he supports independence?  

it would be easy to agree the SNP need destroyed to please people on this forum but it's not the view of many committed independence supporters.  It doesn't make them the enemy.  

do i agree the SNP (online anyway) appears to be full of ungrateful, unlikeable, intolerant wee charlatans? yes.  Does that mean everyone in the SNP are like this? no.  I don't agree with the SNP's current strategy and think there's potential bad actors at play (on all sides of this debate) but there is another view worthy of respect.

If im being honest, i think a cohort of the movement have been watching too many youtube videos based on US issues of identity politics and wokeness, getting it twisted into the Scotland's national cause.  by the way, I think that's the case on both sides. Added to the Salmond issue, which neither side are willing to conciliate on to any extent whatsoever and operate in different, probably flawed realities. We have divide and rule.

The British State has clearly upped it's game in terms of underhand tactics in recent years. They initially thought that granting a referendum, and then winning it, would put an end to the discontent and unrest in their northern colony. When that didn't happen, they had to unleash even more of the dark forces of the security services. There is no doubt that the independence movement has been infiltrated and they are working 'both sides". The fact that there are two sides (or even more) is a sign that it is working. Stuart Campbell has clearly been turned and, although he he doesn't have as much influence as he tries to claim, he is only one of dozens playing the same game. He is just one of the most blatant ones. It's the ones who are keeping their heads down and pulling the strings that we should be most worried about. The big problem is that we don't know who they are.

I used to think that the People of Scotland would see through all this stuff and rise above it. Now I'm not so sure?

Maybe the People of Scotland are too stupid (I prefer to use the word "ignorant") to be allowed to govern themselves?

 

[TDYER63]

54 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

if anything it's aaid that's been getting abuse from what ive seen.  while ive seen toys thrown out a bit, i've never seen abuse from this poster.  

the poster is on a forum talking about independence most days, why goad him constantly asking if he supports independence?  

it would be easy to agree the SNP need destroyed to please people on this forum but it's not the view of many committed independence supporters.  It doesn't make them the enemy.  

do i agree the SNP (online anyway) appears to be full of ungrateful, unlikeable, intolerant wee charlatans? yes.  Does that mean everyone in the SNP are like this? no.  I don't agree with the SNP's current strategy and think there's potential bad actors at play (on all sides of this debate) but there is another view worthy of respect.

If im being honest, i think a cohort of the movement have been watching too many youtube videos based on US issues of identity politics and wokeness, getting it twisted into the Scotland's national cause.  by the way, I think that's the case on both sides. Added to the Salmond issue, which neither side are willing to conciliate on to any extent whatsoever and operate in different, probably flawed realities. We have divide and rule.

Careful, or you will be joining the list of SNP lovin ‘  usual suspects’ that get criticised by those with superior political knowledge on here. 

I agree with a lot of what you say, and I think you are probably one of the most balanced posters on here with no obvious partisan leanings or unproven conspiracy theories. 
I dont want to get into a discussion about individual posters as I think there has been unnecessary accusations from both sides, and  the conflict has been going on for sometime now. Its petty and i think most folk can see that. 

What does concern me is the Green party’s stance. I agree with Alibi that the Bute House Agreement should be ripped up after what Lorna Slater said. The only reason the Green Party have the power they do have is because of their support for independence. That is clearly not a priority for them , they seem to be taking on the role of Lib Dems and whoring themselves to whoever they think will need their support come the next election . 
I mentioned on here a few weeks ago that I had joined an SNP regional zoom meeting about a strategy for independence. I had mentioned at the  meeting  that we were not working closely enough with other independence parties, ie Alba, and people were letting personal feelings get in the way. I was rebuffed by an MP who said ‘ we work with the Green party who we are in coalition with’. It was as if that was enough.  

Well, its now clear the Green Party do not have independence as a priority and I would expect the SNP to act on that, otherwise its pretty understandable why supporters will become disenfranchised . Any party that is willing to prop up Labour does not have independence as a priority .
 

[TDYER63]

47 minutes ago, aaid said:

No it’s not.  You need to watch the whole movie interview and then think about which hypothetical set of circumstances that would have to come about to make it happen.  

The SNP have always had the point of view of “put independence to one side and work with us”.

You clearly have a problem with the Greens and blame them the SNP polling going down.   Where is that vote going?   Some is going to Labour - soft Indy types - some is going to the Greens - typically younger people - some is going to don’t know.  Very little is going to Alba.  How does casting off the greens help the SNP.

I watched the whole interview and I do not need to think about any set of hypothetical circumstances . She was as clear as day, it was the moment the mask slipped . 

[Orraloon]

As far as the SNP is concerned the support of Bute House agreement is very simple. It's the way that the SNP can get the budget passed without having to kowtow to the Tories every year. 

[Ally Bongo]

[TDYER63]

3 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

As far as the SNP is concerned the support of Bute House agreement is very simple. It's the way that the SNP can get the budget passed without having to kowtow to the Tories every year. 

Maybe the SNP should try calling all their bluffs. If the opposition are constantly blocking the budget the public might have their eyes opened . 

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said:

Former MP Corri Wilson’s son-in-law, who is also in Alba. I doubt Ash Regan had anything to do with his decision. 

[aaid]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

Maybe the SNP should try calling all their bluffs. If the opposition are constantly blocking the budget the public might have their eyes opened . 

What impact do you think the Greens are having?  As far as I can see all the things - the major ones certainly - covered by the Bute House agreement have been SNP policies for some time.  They’re maybe people either currently or previously in the party who don’t agree with them but they’ve lost the argument.  It’s easier to blame the green bogeyman.

Maybe I have a different view because while I don’t agree with everything, there’s enough in there prospectus that means I can vote for them and do because they’re the closest - available - choice to my political beliefs.

[slasher]

Labours pathological hatred of the SNP was their undoing and it’s sad to see the same SNP fall into the same trap with Alba. I well remember standing on the steps of Buchanan galleries chatting to the Labour For Indy guys campaigning ahead of the first referendum. When Joanne Lamont and a group of other Labour activists came along the venom that was spat in their direction was quite something to see. Most of these guys will have joined the SNP in the aftermath but I wonder how many remain. 
Everything is torn asunder now and there will be no indyref2 until all the stakeholders in favour of independence realise they have to come together. Sadly it’s probably going to take an absolute hosing in the polls for any of them to realise that and by then it’ll be too late. The next Tory or even Labour government will likely legislate to dilute power even further and take independence even further away. Depressing!

[Ally Bongo]

16 minutes ago, aaid said:

Former MP Corri Wilson’s son-in-law, who is also in Alba. I doubt Ash Regan had anything to do with his decision. 

It's more to do with entrenched troughers like Wishart making sure there is no chance of a Scotland United or addressing the SNP's problems

[Caledonian Craig]

6 minutes ago, slasher said:

Labours pathological hatred of the SNP was their undoing and it’s sad to see the same SNP fall into the same trap with Alba. I well remember standing on the steps of Buchanan galleries chatting to the Labour For Indy guys campaigning ahead of the first referendum. When Joanne Lamont and a group of other Labour activists came along the venom that was spat in their direction was quite something to see. Most of these guys will have joined the SNP in the aftermath but I wonder how many remain. 
Everything is torn asunder now and there will be no indyref2 until all the stakeholders in favour of independence realise they have to come together. Sadly it’s probably going to take an absolute hosing in the polls for any of them to realise that and by then it’ll be too late. The next Tory or even Labour government will likely legislate to dilute power even further and take independence even further away. Depressing!

Agreed.

Posters here want rid of the SNP - fine. The alternative is a Labour government in Holyrood left to put more chains on chances of independence with more bills and legal loopholes to climb through. Still if it gets rid of the nadty DNP then good eh? That is what putting the poison in on the SNP - effectively doing a great campaigning job for the unionist parties.

[Squirrelhumper]

27 minutes ago, slasher said:

Labours pathological hatred of the SNP was their undoing and it’s sad to see the same SNP fall into the same trap with Alba. I well remember standing on the steps of Buchanan galleries chatting to the Labour For Indy guys campaigning ahead of the first referendum. When Joanne Lamont and a group of other Labour activists came along the venom that was spat in their direction was quite something to see. Most of these guys will have joined the SNP in the aftermath but I wonder how many remain. 
Everything is torn asunder now and there will be no indyref2 until all the stakeholders in favour of independence realise they have to come together. Sadly it’s probably going to take an absolute hosing in the polls for any of them to realise that and by then it’ll be too late. The next Tory or even Labour government will likely legislate to dilute power even further and take independence even further away. Depressing!

Spot on.

[TDYER63]

35 minutes ago, aaid said:

What impact do you think the Greens are having?  As far as I can see all the things - the major ones certainly - covered by the Bute House agreement have been SNP policies for some time.  They’re maybe people either currently or previously in the party who don’t agree with them but they’ve lost the argument.  It’s easier to blame the green bogeyman.

Maybe I have a different view because while I don’t agree with everything, there’s enough in there prospectus that means I can vote for them and do because they’re the closest - available - choice to my political beliefs.

Well according to Lorna Slater in that interview the Greens are jointly running the show…

You are in an unusual position for someone who supports independence as you cannot vote up here, so the Greens are your default for the reasons you gave.
I joined the SNP for one thing and one thing  only- Independence. In Scotland every main political party has nailed their colours to  the mast in terms of independence. My belief was that The Greens were pro independence , and have even given them my vote when needed . Its now apparently clear they are not. They could never now be used in a situation where a vote for the Green party assumed a vote for independence. Martin Guissler knows this. He could barely hold himself back from punching the air at the end. 

If independence isnt a priority for them they should have the decency to at least say it and see where they sit after the next election. 

As an aside, I thought Lorna Slater generally did ok in the interview until the end, she has the right to promote her own party. Martin Guissler is a prick  he cut her off when she was actually making a decent point about the lack of levers we have . But her party has lost my support in any form. 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, slasher said:

Labours pathological hatred of the SNP was their undoing and it’s sad to see the same SNP fall into the same trap with Alba. I well remember standing on the steps of Buchanan galleries chatting to the Labour For Indy guys campaigning ahead of the first referendum. When Joanne Lamont and a group of other Labour activists came along the venom that was spat in their direction was quite something to see. Most of these guys will have joined the SNP in the aftermath but I wonder how many remain. 
Everything is torn asunder now and there will be no indyref2 until all the stakeholders in favour of independence realise they have to come together. Sadly it’s probably going to take an absolute hosing in the polls for any of them to realise that and by then it’ll be too late. The next Tory or even Labour government will likely legislate to dilute power even further and take independence even further away. Depressing!

👍

[hampden_loon2878]

5 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

if anything it's aaid that's been getting abuse from what ive seen.  while ive seen toys thrown out a bit, i've never seen abuse from this poster.  

the poster is on a forum talking about independence most days, why goad him constantly asking if he supports independence?  

it would be easy to agree the SNP need destroyed to please people on this forum but it's not the view of many committed independence supporters.  It doesn't make them the enemy.  

do i agree the SNP (online anyway) appears to be full of ungrateful, unlikeable, intolerant wee charlatans? yes.  Does that mean everyone in the SNP are like this? no.  I don't agree with the SNP's current strategy and think there's potential bad actors at play (on all sides of this debate) but there is another view worthy of respect.

If im being honest, i think a cohort of the movement have been watching too many youtube videos based on US issues of identity politics and wokeness, getting it twisted into the Scotland's national cause.  by the way, I think that's the case on both sides. Added to the Salmond issue, which neither side are willing to conciliate on to any extent whatsoever and operate in different, probably flawed realities. We have divide and rule.

it didnt bother me when he said it, water off a ducks back,, but he did say it,, it was so random as well as i hadnt been on the wind up,, because you dont recall it doesnt mean it didnt happen and either @aaid has a poor memory or he is telling porkies