Indyref 2 (2)

[hampden_loon2878]

6 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Sorry, I'm not sure I get your point. All I'm saying is that it's misleading to portray them as fringe players when so recently they were standing to be party leader and between them got over 50% of the first choice votes. Half those who voted, voted for them, surely that's more than a 'fringe'?

Aaid trying to be a smart arse again and only looking like an arse 

[TDYER63]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:26 PM, hampden_loon2878 said:

Clear the board, go back to what got us from a fringe party to the dominant one, do what’s best for Scotland and winning independence. 

How would you clear the board without creating internal civil war ? Voters do not like parties in turmoil, the independence carrot will only carry the SNP so far.

Some may say the war has already started but it could get much worse so any dissidents need to have a realistic plan or risk  the party imploding completely. Is Fergus Ewing, son of Winnie, prepared to do it ?  I am not at all happy with opposition parties cheering him on in parliament. Whilst I absolutely respect him for sticking with his beliefs that is a step too far for me. And a week suspension is bugger all. 

 

[Ally Bongo]

13 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

How would you clear the board without creating internal civil war ? Voters do not like parties in turmoil, the independence carrot will only carry the SNP so far.

Some may say the war has already started but it could get much worse so any dissidents need to have a realistic plan or risk  the party imploding completely. Is Fergus Ewing, son of Winnie, prepared to do it ?  I am not at all happy with opposition parties cheering him on in parliament. Whilst I absolutely respect him for sticking with his beliefs that is a step too far for me. And a week suspension is bugger all. 

 

Correct - there is no possible way for the current SNP to be anything more than the current SNP while they are in power

Lose Rutherglen & Hamilton West - nothing will change

Oust Lisa Cameron & she calls a by election. Grant Costello stands as the SNP candidate & loses to Labour - nothing will change 

There is no way Humza will resign before the next election

[hampden_loon2878]

6 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

How would you clear the board without creating internal civil war ? Voters do not like parties in turmoil, the independence carrot will only carry the SNP so far.

Some may say the war has already started but it could get much worse so any dissidents need to have a realistic plan or risk  the party imploding completely. Is Fergus Ewing, son of Winnie, prepared to do it ?  I am not at all happy with opposition parties cheering him on in parliament. Whilst I absolutely respect him for sticking with his beliefs that is a step too far for me. And a week suspension is bugger all. 

 

There is a civil war going on, it’s what direction the party goes after the civil war, student politics vs sensible scotland oriented politics… I don’t think Humza sees the next election, if he does it will be his last 

[Ally Bongo]

very good this week for anyone that is still listening

 

[TDYER63]

15 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

There is a civil war going on, it’s what direction the party goes after the civil war, student politics vs sensible scotland oriented politics… I don’t think Humza sees the next election, if he does it will be his last 

I am no fan of Humza , I cannot ever see him bringing independence, and I agree his tenure will be short, but I think you are being a bit condescending by describing the policies as student politics. 

Wanting to pull away from fossil fuels to protect the planet and to encourage more recycling is not student politics, if anything it bloody adult politics and being bold when others are just burying their heads in the sand looking for short term fixes. Thats the whole  problem with governments the world over, they never look further than their own time in office. There is absolutely no way the DRS  would be met with so much hostility from the opposition if it wasnt an SNP government that was leading it. 
You have a vested interest in O&G so you cannot possibly be impartial on that regardless of saying you could diversify to renewables. 

They have been incredibly naive on GRR however and so have I, I did not see this stooshie coming as to me it affected so few people. The main mistake however was being obstinate and refusing to bend on it when it was apparent they didn’t have the public support . The fact they continued to persevere with it was a very poor decision, and will , generally, be their undoing if they dont choose the right battles and right choices over the next couple of years. Its a sign of strength to say you got it wrong , not weakness, so long as you learn from it.  

 

[hampden_loon2878]

10 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I am no fan of Humza , I cannot ever see him bringing independence, and I agree his tenure will be short, but I think you are being a bit condescending by describing the policies as student politics. 

Wanting to pull away from fossil fuels to protect the planet and to encourage more recycling is not student politics, if anything it bloody adult politics and being bold when others are just burying their heads in the sand looking for short term fixes. Thats the whole  problem with governments the world over, they never look further than their own time in office. There is absolutely no way the DRS  would be met with so much hostility from the opposition if it wasnt an SNP government that was leading it. 
You have a vested interest in O&G so you cannot possibly be impartial on that regardless of saying you could diversify to renewables. 

They have been incredibly naive on GRR however and so have I, I did not see this stooshie coming as to me it affected so few people. The main mistake however was being obstinate and refusing to bend on it when it was apparent they didn’t have the public support . The fact they continued to persevere with it was a very poor decision, and will , generally, be their undoing if they dont choose the right battles and right choices over the next couple of years. Its a sign of strength to say you got it wrong , not weakness, so long as you learn from it.  

 

Winning independence has a vested interest in oil and gas and thats what the party that is supposed to be wanting independence has to realize, hey if they want to influence climate policies they need to go to another party that has more clout on that subject, its as simple as that,,,, the snp exists to win independence and that should be it,, we have the greens apparently on the side of independence,, i just see zero benefit to the snp taking that stance so stubbornly,, 

 

the DRS is good in theory but has to be implemented competently,, The GRR is the one that has caused most damage and pulled in lots of roaters into the party while pushing out the sensible long standing independent mind members   

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Winning independence has a vested interest in oil and gas and thats what the party that is supposed to be wanting independence has to realize, hey if they want to influence climate policies they need to go to another party that has more clout on that subject, its as simple as that,,,, the snp exists to win independence and that should be it,, we have the greens apparently on the side of independence,, i just see zero benefit to the snp taking that stance so stubbornly,, 

 

the DRS is good in theory but has to be implemented competently,, The GRR is the one that has caused most damage and pulled in lots of roaters into the party while pushing out the sensible long standing independent mind members   

My membership of the SNP has, I think, run out.  I haven't bothered renewing so far as I have no intention of going to branch meetings or being active, at least until we are doing something to progress indy.  Since about 2017 the SNP has been a disaster, loony policies that few want.  The GRR has been an unmitigated disaster and is a large part of the reasons behind support for the SNP dropping.  I'm sure that is not an accident.  Anyway I think I'll remain politically homeless for now, although it's not so much homeless as coming home and finding a bunch of squatters in my house.  And today I read about Alister Jack and Douglas Ross proposing to fund things in Scotland directly rather than going through the Scottish government - if that's not tearing up devolution, what is?   I am waiting to hear any real protests from our governing party, or indeed from any Scottish opposition parties - suspect I'll be waiting a long time for that useless fuckwit Yousaf to grow a spine.

[hampden_loon2878]

38 minutes ago, Alibi said:

My membership of the SNP has, I think, run out.  I haven't bothered renewing so far as I have no intention of going to branch meetings or being active, at least until we are doing something to progress indy.  Since about 2017 the SNP has been a disaster, loony policies that few want.  The GRR has been an unmitigated disaster and is a large part of the reasons behind support for the SNP dropping.  I'm sure that is not an accident.  Anyway I think I'll remain politically homeless for now, although it's not so much homeless as coming home and finding a bunch of squatters in my house.  And today I read about Alister Jack and Douglas Ross proposing to fund things in Scotland directly rather than going through the Scottish government - if that's not tearing up devolution, what is?   I am waiting to hear any real protests from our governing party, or indeed from any Scottish opposition parties - suspect I'll be waiting a long time for that useless fuckwit Yousaf to grow a spine.

baffles me how the real members dont see that our loyalty for independence is being used against us, its our weak spot

[Squirrelhumper]

On 9/30/2023 at 4:13 PM, Ally Bongo said:

The MSM Monitor account (which was outed as an SNP staffer account) has named Joanna Cherry, Alex Neil, Kate Forbes, Ash Regan, Michelle Thomson, Fergus Ewing and Angus McNeil as "fringe malcontents" who can't adjust to the fact that a younger generation has replaced them and taken the party more socially left and have joined up with "Yesterday's men" and are bitter.

That socially left must mean Women having cocks

Younger generation as in Green party wagging their tail and they are happy to go along with it to stay in Government. 

 

[mariokempes]

4 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Younger generation as in Green party wagging their tail and they are happy to go along with it to stay in Government. 

 

There are many many people of all ages who cannot/will not see the bleeding obvious.  The current SNP is rotten to the core , Humza is just another plant, and the rest who kept quiet while Salmond was done need shot.  Makes me so angry. Campaigned for indy since 70s and these woke areseholes have probably killed that off before I die. 

 

Fukking hate these careerists with a passion.

 

 

[Hertsscot]

Have the leadership of the Greens actually explained why they've put up a candidate for HW&R? They haven't got a chance of winning but have a good chance of splitting the pro-Indy vote and letting Labour in.  Having said that I would have liked to have seen Alba stand as that would give a protest vote for those indy voters who were disillusioned with SNPs direction of travel.

[Hertsscot]

9 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I am no fan of Humza , I cannot ever see him bringing independence, and I agree his tenure will be short, but I think you are being a bit condescending by describing the policies as student politics. 

Wanting to pull away from fossil fuels to protect the planet and to encourage more recycling is not student politics, if anything it bloody adult politics and being bold when others are just burying their heads in the sand looking for short term fixes. Thats the whole  problem with governments the world over, they never look further than their own time in office. There is absolutely no way the DRS  would be met with so much hostility from the opposition if it wasnt an SNP government that was leading it. 
You have a vested interest in O&G so you cannot possibly be impartial on that regardless of saying you could diversify to renewables. 

They have been incredibly naive on GRR however and so have I, I did not see this stooshie coming as to me it affected so few people. The main mistake however was being obstinate and refusing to bend on it when it was apparent they didn’t have the public support . The fact they continued to persevere with it was a very poor decision, and will , generally, be their undoing if they dont choose the right battles and right choices over the next couple of years. Its a sign of strength to say you got it wrong , not weakness, so long as you learn from it.  

I mostly agree with you tho I did see GRR being weaponised and am surprised the SNP leadership didn't see it coming. The mitigation would be that this was originally cross party and similar measures were being introduced by the Tories in Westminster. You could argue that in passing it the Scottish Government was being principled and acting with integrity but strategically it's been a disaster.

There has been an arrogance about the Scottish Government both SNP but particularly the Greens who come across as not only incompetent but also dismissive of anyone who has genuine concerns or worries. There has also been an abysmal failure in communication as to why DRR, HPMA, GRR etc. might be good policies. I know the media is stacked against the SNP/Greens but even so.

I hope the SNP, for all their faults, retain HW&R as I still see them as the best vehicle to achieve indy in the short term. I appreciate that some will strongly disagree with that opinion and think that is naive. What I would be interested in hearing is, if the SNP aren't going to lead Scotland to indy, how exactly does it pan out because I can see no other pro-Indy party having enough public backing to spearhead indy anytime in the near future. 

 

[scotlad]

On 9/30/2023 at 4:23 PM, Hertsscot said:

But they're not 'fringe' malcontents. I haven't got any figures at hand but iirc over 50% of the members voted for Kate and Ash in the recent elections for party leader.

That's my recollection too.

It's also a bit unfair to characterise them all as leftovers from a bygone era. It's possibly fair comment to mark Fergus Ewing and Alex Neil down as yesterday's men, if you wanted to be harsh about it, but apart from Angus MacNeill the others were only elected for the first time within the past 10 years. Ash Regan didn't even join the SNP until in 2015, I think.

Jo Cherry and Michelle Thomson are aging with cabinet members like Shona Robison and Richard Lochhead, Ash Regan and Angus MacNeill are both of a similar vintage as Shirley-Annie Sommerville and Kate Forbes is roughly the same age as Mairi McAllan.

[Ally Bongo]

18 minutes ago, scotlad said:

That's my recollection too.

It's also a bit unfair to characterise them all as leftovers from a bygone era. It's possibly fair comment to mark Fergus Ewing and Alex Neil down as yesterday's men, if you wanted to be harsh about it, but apart from Angus MacNeill the others were only elected for the first time within the past 10 years. Ash Regan didn't even join the SNP until in 2015, I think.

Jo Cherry and Michelle Thomson are aging with cabinet members like Shona Robison and Richard Lochhead, Ash Regan and Angus MacNeill are both of a similar vintage as Shirley-Annie Sommerville and Kate Forbes is roughly the same age as Mairi McAllan.

It's those running the SNP that are characterising them

[hampden_loon2878]

some cunt form the daily mail or douglas ross must be reading this thread haha,, what a load of shite,, snp msps speaking to Douglas ross,, bullshit, especially KF 

 

SNP rebels in plot with Tories to ditch toxic Green plans | Daily Mail Online

[scotlad]

11 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

It's those running the SNP that are characterising them

I know, and it's not really credible when you scratch the surface.

[Ally Bongo]

I know i have said that there is no chance of Humza resigning however the more i think about it the pressure on him after a slippering in Rutherglen & Hamilton West will be immense.

In 2023 it is absolutely shameful that a Westminster party which has betrayed Scotland for decades is odds of 1/16 to win a by election seat in Scotland

I know Scotland is famous for rewarding failure but surely whoever is the main strategist (Pringle ?) needs to get the fuck out and take his team and hangers on with him

 

[PapofGlencoe]

For every GRR (not implemented), HPPA (not taken forward) or DRS (not implemented) the SNP have made a difference to people's lives with real policies.  We never hear much about them as politics seems to have more in common with school playgrounds and who's "in" and who's "out"..(The SNP are now like the swotty, snobby know-it-all that needs taken down a peg)...  than a measured assessment of situations. 

By golly I can't be bothered with the sure-footed, boring intolerants in the SNP either.  It's largely this extra "twitter/wings/activist fluff" that's making their reputation now rather than the solid government work that's been done, it's a shame.  Bar the huge elephant in the room which really does get into the real world...arrests of your CEO and former First Minister.

Bus passes for many young folk (and kept for old ones!), rent price caps, trains in public ownership, more progressive taxation, child payment, and hugely important to people close to me, a huge increase in free childcare/nursery.  Do we ever think some of the invective is a wee bit unwarranted in the cold light of day?  There's been a lot of good stuff.  

in terms of problem issues, the main one I see: the ferries, how to fund council services, social care and the state of our town centres.

Independence is largely the domain of our own people, I don't blame the SNP for not having achieved it.  I do blame some SNP idiots with ill-advised, on-the-record comments about Defacto referendums which WILL cripple arguments around future majorities, but we don't have these majorities.  The SNP can't just magic them up.

Apologies for long post - dont really know where i'm going with the above but i believe it might be useful if some of the ire about certain binned policies (agreed, some of them loopy!) was diverted to Unionism rather than pro-indy politicians.  See that Prism for example, they never talk about unionist opponents.. they only talk about the SNP.  It's nae good!

[Hertsscot]

32 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

For every GRR (not implemented), HPPA (not taken forward) or DRS (not implemented) the SNP have made a difference to people's lives with real policies.  We never hear much about them as politics seems to have more in common with school playgrounds and who's "in" and who's "out"..(The SNP are now like the swotty, snobby know-it-all that needs taken down a peg)...  than a measured assessment of situations. 

By golly I can't be bothered with the sure-footed, boring intolerants in the SNP either.  It's largely this extra "twitter/wings/activist fluff" that's making their reputation now rather than the solid government work that's been done, it's a shame.  Bar the huge elephant in the room which really does get into the real world...arrests of your CEO and former First Minister.

Bus passes for many young folk (and kept for old ones!), rent price caps, trains in public ownership, more progressive taxation, child payment, and hugely important to people close to me, a huge increase in free childcare/nursery.  Do we ever think some of the invective is a wee bit unwarranted in the cold light of day?  There's been a lot of good stuff.  

in terms of problem issues, the main one I see: the ferries, how to fund council services, social care and the state of our town centres.

Independence is largely the domain of our own people, I don't blame the SNP for not having achieved it.  I do blame some SNP idiots with ill-advised, on-the-record comments about Defacto referendums which WILL cripple arguments around future majorities, but we don't have these majorities.  The SNP can't just magic them up.

Apologies for long post - dont really know where i'm going with the above but i believe it might be useful if some of the ire about certain binned policies (agreed, some of them loopy!) was diverted to Unionism rather than pro-indy politicians.  See that Prism for example, they never talk about unionist opponents.. they only talk about the SNP.  It's nae good!

Talking about good stuff I covered a lesson today about differences between the health services in USA and the UK. A pupil asked a question whether you had to pay for things in England. I rattled off eye examinations, prescriptions as being free in Scotland but not in England. I did point out that if another party was in government things might change. Reminds me of a certain Joni Mitchell song.

[StirlingEgg]

1 hour ago, PapofGlencoe said:

For every GRR (not implemented), HPPA (not taken forward) or DRS (not implemented) the SNP have made a difference to people's lives with real policies.  We never hear much about them as politics seems to have more in common with school playgrounds and who's "in" and who's "out"..(The SNP are now like the swotty, snobby know-it-all that needs taken down a peg)...  than a measured assessment of situations. 

By golly I can't be bothered with the sure-footed, boring intolerants in the SNP either.  It's largely this extra "twitter/wings/activist fluff" that's making their reputation now rather than the solid government work that's been done, it's a shame.  Bar the huge elephant in the room which really does get into the real world...arrests of your CEO and former First Minister.

Bus passes for many young folk (and kept for old ones!), rent price caps, trains in public ownership, more progressive taxation, child payment, and hugely important to people close to me, a huge increase in free childcare/nursery.  Do we ever think some of the invective is a wee bit unwarranted in the cold light of day?  There's been a lot of good stuff.  

in terms of problem issues, the main one I see: the ferries, how to fund council services, social care and the state of our town centres.

Independence is largely the domain of our own people, I don't blame the SNP for not having achieved it.  I do blame some SNP idiots with ill-advised, on-the-record comments about Defacto referendums which WILL cripple arguments around future majorities, but we don't have these majorities.  The SNP can't just magic them up.

Apologies for long post - dont really know where i'm going with the above but i believe it might be useful if some of the ire about certain binned policies (agreed, some of them loopy!) was diverted to Unionism rather than pro-indy politicians.  See that Prism for example, they never talk about unionist opponents.. they only talk about the SNP.  It's nae good!

Great points  - I feel a lot like this too just now. If only they could find a way to highlight the policies that genuinely help folk without sounding like they are patting themselves on the back too much. More a case of what we do/could do differently in Scotland and that it is the tip of the iceberg of opportunity with so much key stuff being reserved. That still might not be the best approach though in terms of phrasing used so just a passing thought. A decent strategist would help but the media is a constant blockade.

Who knows if folk see the inflation headlines and think to question them based on their own household costs; or if they've had a good experience with the NHS or their kids' education. Or do they just accept that everything's shit because we're in Scotland rather than a dysfunctional political union. 

[TDYER63]

On 10/2/2023 at 2:06 PM, hampden_loon2878 said:

Winning independence has a vested interest in oil and gas and thats what the party that is supposed to be wanting independence has to realize, hey if they want to influence climate policies they need to go to another party that has more clout on that subject, its as simple as that,,,, the snp exists to win independence and that should be it,, we have the greens apparently on the side of independence,, i just see zero benefit to the snp taking that stance so stubbornly,, 

 

the DRS is good in theory but has to be implemented competently,, The GRR is the one that has caused most damage and pulled in lots of roaters into the party while pushing out the sensible long standing independent mind members   

The last time I looked the SNP did have a vested interest in O&G , they are trying to introduce more renewables and gradually switch off O&G, they are not saying they are switching the tap off next week . They see the sheer hypocrisy of opening more oilfields whilst at the same time trying to promote green energy. The Westminster government are a shower of charlatans and dont give a fuck about climate change as can be demonstrated by their constant back tracking .
This isnt student politics its called making a concerted effort to change. When we talk about independence we talk about doing things different and that it is for our childrens children. Why bother if we are just going to carbon  copy everything Westminster do. And the bloody oil will be going overseas . 
 

17 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

I mostly agree with you tho I did see GRR being weaponised and am surprised the SNP leadership didn't see it coming. The mitigation would be that this was originally cross party and similar measures were being introduced by the Tories in Westminster. You could argue that in passing it the Scottish Government was being principled and acting with integrity but strategically it's been a disaster.

There has been an arrogance about the Scottish Government both SNP but particularly the Greens who come across as not only incompetent but also dismissive of anyone who has genuine concerns or worries. There has also been an abysmal failure in communication as to why DRR, HPMA, GRR etc. might be good policies. I know the media is stacked against the SNP/Greens but even so.

I hope the SNP, for all their faults, retain HW&R as I still see them as the best vehicle to achieve indy in the short term. I appreciate that some will strongly disagree with that opinion and think that is naive. What I would be interested in hearing is, if the SNP aren't going to lead Scotland to indy, how exactly does it pan out because I can see no other pro-Indy party having enough public backing to spearhead indy anytime in the near future. 

 

I agree with all of this. And I dont think you are being naive.
Absolutely none of the people criticising the SNP ( sometimes for good reason) can provide a realistic alternative to them as a party capable of achieving independence,  so the only alternative is to try and change from within.
I would like to ask anyone on here what they have actually done in the last 2 or 3 years to try and force change. Because its only through force and that anything will change. 
I joined a West of Scotland Regional Assembly zoom meeting a month or so ago. It was hosted by the NEC regional rep. The purpose was to get ideas that could be put to conference on the way forward for independence. There were assemblies for every part of the country so any SNP member could join the discussion for their region. 
Did anyone join one ?  

This is exactly the type of platform where wee diddies like me and you can have their say. Forget your 2 men and a dug branch meetings.

There were 3 prominent MSP’s in attendance.  I mainly listened , and have to say I did not hear a bunch of cult followers.  I heard people who are genuinely trying to find ways forward to break this stalemate and to put new ideas . I was actually much more impressed than I expected to be and it gave me hope that behind the front line MPs and MSP’s there is not just a bunch of flag waving zealots. 
The one thing I did mention was the lack of respect given to other independence parties and unwillingness to work with them. I don’t think anyone expected that as there was a degree of defensiveness.
The response I got was that an electoral pact under a first past the post system wasnt a credible option for a main political party. However, after a bit of debate it was agreed that if we want independence we need to work with supportive political parties and be seen to be doing so , and that personal rivalries and egos must be set aside for the greater good. This was documented and the NEC rep was meeting with the FM the following day to discuss everything that was raised. 
Now, fuck all might happen, but at least I know I am trying and the more people who raise concerns through channels were something might actually get done the more chance there is of change. 
 

 

[TDYER63]

8 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

some cunt form the daily mail or douglas ross must be reading this thread haha,, what a load of shite,, snp msps speaking to Douglas ross,, bullshit, especially KF 

 

SNP rebels in plot with Tories to ditch toxic Green plans | Daily Mail Online

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23829471.kate-forbes-hits-back-douglas-ross-conference-comments/

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

Talking about good stuff I covered a lesson today about differences between the health services in USA and the UK. A pupil asked a question whether you had to pay for things in England. I rattled off eye examinations, prescriptions as being free in Scotland but not in England. I did point out that if another party was in government things might change. Reminds me of a certain Joni Mitchell song.

Expect a summons to the headmaster’s office tomorrow to explain the complaint from Mr Tarquin Longbottom . 

[Hertsscot]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

Expect a summons to the headmaster’s office tomorrow to explain the complaint from Mr Tarquin Longbottom . 

I'd be surprised if there were any Tarquin Longbottom's where I teach!!!😂😂😂😂😂