Indyref 2 (2)

[StirlingEgg]

23 hours ago, Freeedom said:

The party's focus is about rejoining the EU, not about being independent any more. Getting independence is a means to rejoin the EU, the mask is off. The party are targeting the middle class No voter of 2014 who cares about EU membership more than Scotland's independence. 

Those same voters will never vote for independence once starmer becomes PM and starts talking about rejoining the EU.

I think that your second point is a possibility. Frustrating that some would be content to go along with what England wants once again. I reckon the UK will dissolve or whatever at some point, no idea of timing but ironically at England's behest. This will be once they've got the security of water/power/money flowing their way first. 

The other thread about the pipeline from Peterhead is interesting especially with the description of "between" the two areas. As though the electricity flows both ways...🤔

Why all the sniping on here though? It's been such a funny and enlightening board. I came across the likes of Limmy and bought a Henry Hoover based on the chat here 😊

[TDYER63]

22 hours ago, aaid said:

Good luck to you.  Marching isn't really my thing, I don't think that in itself it changes the mind of any no voter, it is all preaching to the converted.  That said, if people get fired up and then go out and talk to other people who are less convinced then it's a good thing, its really all about motivation for the grass roots.

If all people do is march around Scotland and talk amongst themselves, it's a bit of a waste of time.

I dont really think folk just march around. Anyone who gives a full afternoon of their time to attend a march, I doubt is just going to go back home to cutting their grass and saying nothing on the subject till the next march. The guy in front of me was an ex policeman from Skye, it was hardly a wee sprint from Morningside for him. 

As I mentioned before, its more for visibility,  the march itself isnt going to do anything . There were loads of tourists and it brings the subject to their attention. 
There was a large number of folk I would say were over 50 and at the risk of pigeon holing people , they may not use social media to the same degree and the march makes them feel included.

What I found quite interesting was the difference between the folk in yesterday’s march and that in the AUOB a couple of months ago in Glasgow . For me it absolutely reflected the difference in the 2 cities and the fact that Scotland has a wide range of  people , all who have a common interest in independence . Nobody owns independence and we need to find a way to compromise or it will never work.

I took my Daily Mail reading husband along. I said to him ‘is it not as Tommy Sheridan as you thought it would be’. 
He said ‘ it was not Tommy Sheridan enough’ which surprised me. I think a lot of people know we are being fucked but the SNP just dont seem to have the guts to be more aggressive. 
I liked the fact the presenters were young, it brings some much needed energy and as was mentioned a few times yesterday, its the young people who will be affected most be independence so it’s important they have a big involvement. 

I am glad I went ,  the brilliant weather helped. Not sure about my husband who gave up the Livi / St Mirren game to come! 😁

[Freeedom]

2 hours ago, StirlingEgg said:

I think that your second point is a possibility. Frustrating that some would be content to go along with what England wants once again. I reckon the UK will dissolve or whatever at some point, no idea of timing but ironically at England's behest. This will be once they've got the security of water/power/money flowing their way first. 

The other thread about the pipeline from Peterhead is interesting especially with the description of "between" the two areas. As though the electricity flows both ways...🤔

Why all the sniping on here though? It's been such a funny and enlightening board. I came across the likes of Limmy and bought a Henry Hoover based on the chat here 😊

The SNPs agenda couldn't be any clearer, where does it leave the independence campaign in Scotland when Keir Starmer starts campaigning to rejoin the EU?

The party don't have two brain cells to rub together.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Freeedom

[Ally Bongo]

21 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

The SNPs agenda couldn't be any clearer, where does it leave the independence campaign in Scotland when Keir Starmer starts campaigning to rejoin the EU?

The party don't have two brain cells to rub together.

Never happening - even if he becomes PM which is doubtful

The right wing English establishment is settled in concrete

 

[Hertsscot]

4 hours ago, Freeedom said:

The SNPs agenda couldn't be any clearer, where does it leave the independence campaign in Scotland when Keir Starmer starts campaigning to rejoin the EU?

The party don't have two brain cells to rub together.

Sorry I'm going to have to disagree. I don't think Labour are going to move to rejoin the EU if they get in. Even if they were secretly wishing to do so I just can't see it happening in their first term. Also the arguments for Scottish independence were valid when the rest of the UK was still in the EU and would remain equally valid if the UK rejoined.

[Freeedom]

22 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Never happening - even if he becomes PM which is doubtful

The right wing English establishment is settled in concrete

 

 

17 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Sorry I'm going to have to disagree. I don't think Labour are going to move to rejoin the EU if they get in. Even if they were secretly wishing to do so I just can't see it happening in their first term. Also the arguments for Scottish independence were valid when the rest of the UK was still in the EU and would remain equally valid if the UK rejoined.

Time well tell. I think they will do it over the course of two terms in office. 

The broader question is where would it leave the independence movement? The SNP are predicating their whole argument in favour of independence on rejoining the EU (something they can't even guarantee). As far as strategy goes, it's fucking bonkers. 

[aaid]

49 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

 

Time well tell. I think they will do it over the course of two terms in office. 

So sometime in the next 11 years then. 

[PapofGlencoe]

I think the fact some Scots sincerely believe

a) Scotland would not get into the EU, and

b) The EU (who are not particularly hoping for the break of the UK) are going to guarantee anything until such time as Scotland actually is independent is very revealing of our fecklessness as a nation.

We have otherwise intelligent people telling us Slovakia and Bulgaria can be in the EU but Scotland cannot.  They walk among us.  

I can't be bothered regurgitating the comebacks on every indy point that much anymore, but that one always gets on my wick.  It's like a throwaway line.  If there are people who sincerely need a guarantee, those ones will never come over.  

 

[PapofGlencoe]

54 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

 

Time well tell. I think they will do it over the course of two terms in office. 

The broader question is where would it leave the independence movement? The SNP are predicating their whole argument in favour of independence on rejoining the EU (something they can't even guarantee). As far as strategy goes, it's fucking bonkers. 

because indy is dead for a generation and the next generation are pro-EU.

Go anywhere in Europe as a Scot and it's clear this is the road to international acceptance for something many foreigners look at with suspicion.  It's also the main reason for looking at the issue again as it's such a change in circumstances.  I'd hitch my wagon to it too.  We can always decide to leave later.

[TDYER63]

Current poling says only 50% of all Britons want to rejoin the EU. Scotland is at 73% so what does that tell you about England and Wales. Starmer is never going to rejoin on these figures and he doesn’t give a fuck about Scotland either. 

[Freeedom]

14 minutes ago, aaid said:

So sometime in the next 11 years then. 

When's indyref 2, October isn't it?

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, Freeedom said:

 

Time well tell. I think they will do it over the course of two terms in office. 

The broader question is where would it leave the independence movement? The SNP are predicating their whole argument in favour of independence on rejoining the EU (something they can't even guarantee). As far as strategy goes, it's fucking bonkers. 

It's will seem like their "whole argument" if that's the only bit you listen to.

The SNP can't even guarantee it, but you've already decided that Labour will take the whole UK back into the EU within a decade even though they haven't even suggested that that is what they want to do? Am I getting your logic right here?

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Orraloon

[aaid]

14 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It's will seem like their "whole argument" if that's the only bit you listen to.

The SNP can't even guarantee it, but you've already decided that Labour will take the whole UK back into the EU within a decade even though they haven't even suggested that that is what they want to do? Am I getting your logic right here?

 

Also, the SNP should give up on joining the EU because they can’t guarantee the EU would allow it.   Presumably they should also give up on Independence because we know the UK government won’t allow it.   I’m waiting to hear the route to independence to be outlined that doesn’t involve the UKG’s agreement. 

[Freeedom]

18 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It's will seem like their "whole argument" if that's the only bit you listen to.

The SNP can't even guarantee it, but you've already decided that Labour will take the whole UK back into the EU within a decade even though they haven't even suggested that that is what they want to do? Am I getting your logic right here?

 

No, as usual you aren't, but I don't think at any point you've made a good faith criticism of anything I've said 

[aaid]

9 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

No, as usual you aren't, but I don't think at any point you've made a good faith criticism of anything I've said 

What is the route to independence that doesn’t involve the agreement of the UK Government.  

[Orraloon]

12 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

No, as usual you aren't, but I don't think at any point you've made a good faith criticism of anything I've said 

What makes you think that Starmer will take the UK back into the EU? Even if he wanted to, the electorate in England wouldn't let him. 

[Ally Bongo]

14 minutes ago, aaid said:

What is the route to independence that doesn’t involve the agreement of the UK Government.  

The question should be - What is the route to Independence which will make the UK Government agree to it.

Then you have more options other than a bended knee with a cap in your hand

[aaid]

19 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

The question should be - What is the route to Independence which will make the UK Government agree to it.

Then you have more options other than a bended knee with a cap in your hand

That’s actually straightforwards, support at a level and for a sustained period that it cannot be dismissed with a straight face by anyone.  

[Hertsscot]

9 minutes ago, aaid said:

That’s actually straightforwards, support at a level and for a sustained period that it cannot be dismissed with a straight face by anyone.  

And hammering home at every opportunity the fundamentally anti-democratic nature of the current Government and other Unionist parties who deny voters in Scotland a referendum.

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

And hammering home at every opportunity the fundamentally anti-democratic nature of the current Government and other Unionist parties who deny voters in Scotland a referendum.

Yes, until the media can’t ignore that anymore.

[Freeedom]

2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

What makes you think that Starmer will take the UK back into the EU? Even if he wanted to, the electorate in England wouldn't let him. 

I didn't say he will take the UK back into the EU, I said that he would try to do so over the course of two terms. We know what he stands for and he will drip feed the idea that "things have changed" and that "for the best interests of the British economy, the people should have the chance to change their mind I'd they want."

We know the man will say or do anything to get into power, he had to lie to win the labour leadership contest and he has lied again to get into office as PM. Once he is in power there is nothing to hold him accountable and he can do whatever he wants, and we know what it is that he wants.

That's my prediction, which is based on history and the character of Keir Starmer and the neoliberals in his party.

Labour WILL win, so how is that going to affect independence strategy? They will never ever grant us a referendum either.

[PapofGlencoe]

35 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

Once he is in power there is nothing to hold him accountable and he can do whatever he wants, and we know what it is that he wants.

Do we?  I have no idea what Starmer is about to be honest 😆.  If you mean taking UK back into EU i'm all for it as it makes the trade position of independence a hell of a lot easier.

 

[Orraloon]

34 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

I didn't say he will take the UK back into the EU, I said that he would try to do so over the course of two terms. We know what he stands for and he will drip feed the idea that "things have changed" and that "for the best interests of the British economy, the people should have the chance to change their mind I'd they want."

We know the man will say or do anything to get into power, he had to lie to win the labour leadership contest and he has lied again to get into office as PM. Once he is in power there is nothing to hold him accountable and he can do whatever he wants, and we know what it is that he wants.

That's my prediction, which is based on history and the character of Keir Starmer and the neoliberals in his party.

Labour WILL win, so how is that going to affect independence strategy? They will never ever grant us a referendum either.

There is nothing wrong with having the same policy as Labour if you think it's the correct policy. Most voters in Scotland seem to agree with that policy. I hope you are correct because giving the people the chance to change their mind on the EU feeds into the idea that the people of Scotland should be given the chance to change their minds on independence. For me, the ideal situation would be for Scotland to be independent and both Scotland and RUK are in the EU. I just can't see that happening though. 

[Freeedom]

13 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Do we?  I have no idea what Starmer is about to be honest 😆.  If you mean taking UK back into EU i'm all for it as it makes the trade position of independence a hell of a lot easier.

 

Yes, Keir Starmer was one of the most vocal supporter of EU membership during the referendum campaign.

13 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

There is nothing wrong with having the same policy as Labour if you think it's the correct policy. Most voters in Scotland seem to agree with that policy. I hope you are correct because giving the people the chance to change their mind on the EU feeds into the idea that the people of Scotland should be given the chance to change their minds on independence. For me, the ideal situation would be for Scotland to be independent and both Scotland and RUK are in the EU. I just can't see that happening though. 

I hope I am correct too because it's going to expose the fragility of the SNPs shitty independence strategy. The pro EU voters that they have be corralling for the last few years will start voting for a pro EU Labour party because they are not in the least bit interested in independence.

[Caledonian Craig]

5 hours ago, aaid said:

That’s actually straightforwards, support at a level and for a sustained period that it cannot be dismissed with a straight face by anyone.  

Oh it would still be argued against. We have it everytime the SNP does well in elections. Unionist MPs stand there and say not all SNP voters support independence but insist all Labour, Tory and LibDem voters support the union. That is the kind of warped biased world they live in along with the mainstream media.