Indyref 2 (2)

[PapofGlencoe]

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

I think it's fair to say that the SNP are putting out a very mediocre reserve team while people who could get the party back to a strong position seem to be on the bench or on the transfer list - NS admitted to impostor syndrome and I think that's what's behind it.  She didn't have the confidence to let anyone who might actually usurp her position anywhere near positions of power.  Looking back on her time as FM, it's been a sort of slow motion managed decline.  Yousaf is much the same - he has no leadership qualities and comes across as an actor playing a part.  That "first activist" label is cringeworthy when he snubs an indy march for a poorly attended local pride diversion.  As a long term SNP member & indy supporter, I despair at the way they have pushed forward a lot of really poor legislation that few voters like.  If you wanted to destroy a party, that's what you would do.  I notice that Sir Starmer has pretty much turned the Labour Party into a Tory tribute act and I suspect they will find their currently improving poll ratings in Scotland dropping like a stone once the electorate in Scotland wake up to what is happening - how is Sarwar going to sell brexit, no FoM, no indy or indyref, etc.etc. to voters in Scotland?  The MSM and BBC Scotland can't continue to have a news blackout on that forever.

the thing is the SNP did well when they talked about the legislation that has undoubtedly been better than the UK.  Being competent was the big sell 10 years ago.  It can be again.

tuition fees, bus pass for kids, rent controls, hospital parking charges scrapped, child payments, progressive tax etc etc.  Wish they would start talking these up rather than going down culture war rabbit holes most people either roll their eyes at or take extreme positions on.  If i was Yousaf i'd ask all of his cohort to focus on these and do their best to ignore everything else.

I think the labour line of "stop focussing on issues of the past, it's time for a change of both governments" is a stronger message than trying to blame Scottish Labour for things out of their control.  unfortunately.  i dont think anyone seriously blames Sarwar for brexit and I dont think they'll suffer consequences for it.

[Dave78]

1 hour ago, PapofGlencoe said:

 

I think the labour line of "stop focussing on issues of the past, it's time for a change of both governments" is a stronger message than trying to blame Scottish Labour for things out of their control.  unfortunately.  i dont think anyone seriously blames Sarwar for brexit and I dont think they'll suffer consequences for it.

I completely agree. Brexit, Freedom of Movement etc isn't a live issue anymore.

The SNP will try to remind everyone about this at the next election, but they'll look like WW1 Generals fighting a war with tactics from the last one.

[TDYER63]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:30 AM, Freeedom said:

Yeah, at least the national team are doing us proud. 

But I think it's important to remember what was promised to us by the SNP over and over again and what they have failed to deliver on. 

 

I am in no way trivialising the situation and there is no one as dismayed as me at the situation. The SNP absolutely could be doing much more to promote independence but I dont think Scotland is ready at the moment and , IMO, an October referendum would , without doubt, have failed. 

It doesn’t need the SNP to show the people of Scotland what an absolute shit show the UK is. We are not trying to educate 5 yr olds its grown adults. They see evidence every day and despite certain media doing everything they can to disguise the state of things , Brexit as one example, there are various  things that are clear and obvious like the political scandals, the economic condition compared to other countries, outrageous fuel costs in a nation that produces energy etc etc. Still, this doesn’t seem to be enough for folk to say enough is enough. I  really do not know what it would take to win some people round we are so meek and lacking in ambition as a country. 

 

[Freeedom]

49 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I am in no way trivialising the situation and there is no one as dismayed as me at the situation. The SNP absolutely could be doing much more to promote independence but I dont think Scotland is ready at the moment and , IMO, an October referendum would , without doubt, have failed. 

It doesn’t need the SNP to show the people of Scotland what an absolute shit show the UK is. We are not trying to educate 5 yr olds its grown adults. They see evidence every day and despite certain media doing everything they can to disguise the state of things , Brexit as one example, there are various  things that are clear and obvious like the political scandals, the economic condition compared to other countries, outrageous fuel costs in a nation that produces energy etc etc. Still, this doesn’t seem to be enough for folk to say enough is enough. I  really do not know what it would take to win some people round we are so meek and lacking in ambition as a country. 

 

There's no doubt in my mind that if the SNP announced an October referendum today we would lose. I'm not suggesting for one minute that we should be having one because as is perpetually the case with this government, they're not putting the plans in place or campaigning accordingly.

How can we convince people to vote yes when we have an incompetent government unwilling to even make the effort to campaign for the cause? 

The general public can see all the corruption in the world from Westminster but they're not going to put 2 and 2 together if we cannot join the dots and explain to people with confidence that an independent Scotland can do things better.

The onus is on the powers that be in Scotland to make the argument and we are failing miserably. 

 

[Ally Bongo]

It's been obvious for a while that there is no passion within the SNP - the staged FM's questions every week does not count

Yet when someone from out with the SNP shows some, like MacAskill, supporters of what's left of the SNP ridicule it 

If you could guarantee the demise of Yousaf and his honking cabinet after the Rutherglen & Hamilton West by-election then i would welcome it however it is more likely they will double down

[TDYER63]

4 hours ago, Freeedom said:

There's no doubt in my mind that if the SNP announced an October referendum today we would lose. I'm not suggesting for one minute that we should be having one because as is perpetually the case with this government, they're not putting the plans in place or campaigning accordingly.

How can we convince people to vote yes when we have an incompetent government unwilling to even make the effort to campaign for the cause? 

The general public can see all the corruption in the world from Westminster but they're not going to put 2 and 2 together if we cannot join the dots and explain to people with confidence that an independent Scotland can do things better.

The onus is on the powers that be in Scotland to make the argument and we are failing miserably. 

 

I dont disagree with this in principle but as much as the SNP are failing to make a case for independence and have made some poor decisions I do not think they are totally incompetent. That is hyperbole facilitated by unionist media . The SNP will never be able to please everyone , for example you and Loon both think they are incompetent but for totally different reasons. You both have a different views of how Scotland would exist as an independent nation . Joining the dots for you would take a different path to the dots joined for Loon. 

Some of the things they are attempting like the DRS are fundamentally good ideas. Leading the way in things like this should be examples of how we could run an independent Scotland but folk are too happy to stick the boot in . You expect that from the opposition, they will try to ridicule anything the SG do as its effectively the SNP, but you expect a bit more support from your own side.

All that said,  Humza is never in a million years going to bring us independence. Independence is a much bigger step than simply winning an election. To get people to buy into independence requires a figurehead that is reasonably likeable , shrewd and trustworthy. People buy from people. You do not need to have the perfect product but you do need to know how to sell it. Whilst I think he is a decent enough guy, Humza does not hold these qualities IMO. 

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

To get people to buy into independence requires a figurehead that is reasonably likeable , shrewd and trustworthy. People buy from people. You do not need to have the perfect product but you do need to know how to sell it. Whilst I think he is a decent enough guy, Humza does not hold these qualities IMO. 

They also need to be a populist and arrogant - refusing to take any shit from Unionists and their media rather than meekly letting them spout drivel

The current SNP have been on the defensive since 2014 putting any old chump on National TV/Radio Political shows in the main

Without aggression we win nothing

[TDYER63]

27 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

They also need to be a populist and arrogant - refusing to take any shit from Unionists and their media rather than meekly letting them spout drivel

The current SNP have been on the defensive since 2014 putting any old chump on National TV/Radio Political shows in the main

Without aggression we win nothing

Completely agree

[aaid]

19 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

It's been obvious for a while that there is no passion within the SNP - the staged FM's questions every week does not count

Yet when someone from out with the SNP shows some, like MacAskill, supporters of what's left of the SNP ridicule it 

If you could guarantee the demise of Yousaf and his honking cabinet after the Rutherglen & Hamilton West by-election then i would welcome it however it is more likely they will double down

Is this obvious like the terrorism attacks in Nottingham. 

[aaid]

14 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I dont disagree with this in principle but as much as the SNP are failing to make a case for independence and have made some poor decisions I do not think they are totally incompetent. That is hyperbole facilitated by unionist media . The SNP will never be able to please everyone , for example you and Loon both think they are incompetent but for totally different reasons. You both have a different views of how Scotland would exist as an independent nation . Joining the dots for you would take a different path to the dots joined for Loon. 

Some of the things they are attempting like the DRS are fundamentally good ideas. Leading the way in things like this should be examples of how we could run an independent Scotland but folk are too happy to stick the boot in . You expect that from the opposition, they will try to ridicule anything the SG do as its effectively the SNP, but you expect a bit more support from your own side.

All that said,  Humza is never in a million years going to bring us independence. Independence is a much bigger step than simply winning an election. To get people to buy into independence requires a figurehead that is reasonably likeable , shrewd and trustworthy. People buy from people. You do not need to have the perfect product but you do need to know how to sell it. Whilst I think he is a decent enough guy, Humza does not hold these qualities IMO. 

When something as innocuous and beneficial as heat pumps becomes a party political argument, it would appear solely because of the individual who has brought forwards the policy then politics in Scotland is truly fucked.  

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

Is this obvious like the terrorism attacks in Nottingham. 

The truth hurts eh ?

[scotlad]

On 8/4/2023 at 11:21 AM, PapofGlencoe said:

I think the labour line of "stop focussing on issues of the past, it's time for a change of both governments" is a stronger message than trying to blame Scottish Labour for things out of their control.  unfortunately.  i dont think anyone seriously blames Sarwar for brexit and I dont think they'll suffer consequences for it.

Labour have spent years blaming the SNP for things being their control - what's good for the goose and all that.

I don't think there's any harm in exposing what "Scottish Labour" really is - a suppliant branch of an English political party fronted by a over-privileged, out-of-his-depth imbecile in Anas Sarwar.

As far as the Ruthglen by-election goes, I'd be asking the Labour candidate - who claims he supports gender self-ID and scrapping the two-child benefits cap, contrary to his party's official policy - at every opportunity if he's prepared to vote against his party's whip if he's elected to WM.

On 8/4/2023 at 1:02 PM, Dave78 said:

I completely agree. Brexit, Freedom of Movement etc isn't a live issue anymore.

The SNP will try to remind everyone about this at the next election, but they'll look like WW1 Generals fighting a war with tactics from the last one.

I'm not sure that's true. I'd maybe not frame it terms of Brexit but I would point out, for instance, that Scottish businesses are suffering disproportionately as a result of not being in the single market, or that kids from Northern Ireland are able to participate in the Erasmus scheme whereas kids from Scotland cannot.

[Freeedom]

21 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I dont disagree with this in principle but as much as the SNP are failing to make a case for independence and have made some poor decisions I do not think they are totally incompetent. That is hyperbole facilitated by unionist media . The SNP will never be able to please everyone , for example you and Loon both think they are incompetent but for totally different reasons. You both have a different views of how Scotland would exist as an independent nation . Joining the dots for you would take a different path to the dots joined for Loon. 

Some of the things they are attempting like the DRS are fundamentally good ideas. Leading the way in things like this should be examples of how we could run an independent Scotland but folk are too happy to stick the boot in . You expect that from the opposition, they will try to ridicule anything the SG do as its effectively the SNP, but you expect a bit more support from your own side.

All that said,  Humza is never in a million years going to bring us independence. Independence is a much bigger step than simply winning an election. To get people to buy into independence requires a figurehead that is reasonably likeable , shrewd and trustworthy. People buy from people. You do not need to have the perfect product but you do need to know how to sell it. Whilst I think he is a decent enough guy, Humza does not hold these qualities IMO. 

Eh? I've never suggested the SNP need to please everyone, that's impossible. What I meant when I said that the SNP need to join the dots was to try and make the connection between

A) The failures of government in westminster (whether that be Labour or Tory)
How the Scottish government would have a different policy to solve problem X, Y or Z
C) That this can only be achieved by having independence.
D) Here's exactly how we can do it.

As you said people already understand point A but they are not connecting the dots to B, C and D and that's what the SNP are responsible for and failing at. We cannot have a referendum until they start making that case and the light bulbs start going off in people's minds.

EDIT:

I would also add that the SNP are entitled to push whatever policy position they want, but it has to be credible. If they want to sell independence on the notion that Scotland is going to rejoin the EU then they better have some credibility behind that position. How exactly are they going to make that happen? Are we going to join the Euro? etc... If they dont have credible answers then nobody is going to buy what they are selling.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Freeedom

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, Freeedom said:

Eh? I've never suggested the SNP need to please everyone, that's impossible. What I meant when I said that the SNP need to join the dots was to try and make the connection between

A) The failures of government in westminster (whether that be Labour or Tory)
How the Scottish government would have a different policy to solve problem X, Y or Z
C) That this can only be achieved by having independence.
D) Here's exactly how we can do it.

As you said people already understand point A but they are not connecting the dots to B, C and D and that's what the SNP are responsible for and failing at. We cannot have a referendum until they start making that case and the light bulbs start going off in people's minds.

EDIT:

I would also add that the SNP are entitled to push whatever policy position they want, but it has to be credible. If they want to sell independence on the notion that Scotland is going to rejoin the EU then they better have some credibility behind that position. How exactly are they going to make that happen? Are we going to join the Euro? etc... If they dont have credible answers then nobody is going to buy what they are selling.

What do you mean by "join the Euro"?

[Freeedom]

31 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

What do you mean by "join the Euro"?

Is this not self evident? 

[Ally Bongo]

 

[Orraloon]

5 hours ago, Freeedom said:

Is this not self evident? 

No it isn't because, on it's own, it doesn't actually mean anything. Do you mean join the EU, use the Euro as currency, or be part of the Eurozone. Those are three different things which folk often get mixed up.

[Freeedom]

18 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

No it isn't because, on it's own, it doesn't actually mean anything. Do you mean join the EU, use the Euro as currency, or be part of the Eurozone. Those are three different things which folk often get mixed up.

Take your pick, the point is that whatever the governments position is they need to demonstrate the feasibility of it with evidence. It's just an example.

[Dave78]

2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

No it isn't because, on it's own, it doesn't actually mean anything. Do you mean join the EU, use the Euro as currency, or be part of the Eurozone. Those are three different things which folk often get mixed up.

To my understanding, the phrase "join the Euro" means joining the currency union, i.e. using the Euro as your national method of exchange. The same goes for the phrase being "part of the Eurozone".

I think these definitions are pretty well established.

"Join the EU" means joining the political and trading union, but without necessarily joining the currency union.

 

[Orraloon]

10 hours ago, Freeedom said:

Take your pick, the point is that whatever the governments position is they need to demonstrate the feasibility of it with evidence. It's just an example.

I think that one of the mistakes we made last time, was trying to go into far too much detail about a lot of these things. We don't need to decide all these things now, because our decisions on these things can change with changing economic circumstances. For me the whole point about independence is that the people of Scotland can decide these things when the time is right to make these decisions. These decisions don't all need to be made on day one and certainly not years before there is any prospect of independence happening.

[TDYER63]

18 hours ago, Freeedom said:

Eh? I've never suggested the SNP need to please everyone, that's impossible. What I meant when I said that the SNP need to join the dots was to try and make the connection between

A) The failures of government in westminster (whether that be Labour or Tory)
How the Scottish government would have a different policy to solve problem X, Y or Z
C) That this can only be achieved by having independence.
D) Here's exactly how we can do it.

As you said people already understand point A but they are not connecting the dots to B, C and D and that's what the SNP are responsible for and failing at. We cannot have a referendum until they start making that case and the light bulbs start going off in people's minds.

EDIT:

I would also add that the SNP are entitled to push whatever policy position they want, but it has to be credible. If they want to sell independence on the notion that Scotland is going to rejoin the EU then they better have some credibility behind that position. How exactly are they going to make that happen? Are we going to join the Euro? etc... If they dont have credible answers then nobody is going to buy what they are selling.

I interpreted you saying    ‘but they're not going to put 2 and 2 together if we cannot join the dots and explain to people with confidence that an independent Scotland can do things better as explaining to people how we make Scotland more successful than the Uk. People see this differently to each other hence me saying joining the dots would be difficult . The policies that you want will be different to that of Loon so they need to be careful or they will alienate a portion of the electorate. Pretty much what some are saying is happening just now with O&G for example.
I do agree they need to be far more forthright in highlighting the corruption in Westminster versus the Scottish parliament. Even the bloody STV voting up here is far fairer but its amazing the people who have no idea what the difference is to FPTP.  If nothing comes of this missing £600k with regards to arrests they should be screaming from the rooftops about the double standards. 

On the Euro, this is one area that I have particular interest as it is my line of work. To my knowledge joining the Euro is the least attractive to the SNP,  any statements made so far have suggested sticking with the pound for a period and/or having a Scottish currency seem to be preferable. Adopting the Euro is not a necessity of rejoining the EU despite what unionists try to spin. 
 

 

 

[aaid]

15 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

World’s worst zoom call

[Ally Bongo]

36 minutes ago, aaid said:

World’s worst zoom call

Truth hurts eh ?

[ParisInAKilt]

https://robinmcalpine.org/another-summer-of-broken-promises/

[aaid]

20 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

https://robinmcalpine.org/another-summer-of-broken-promises/

The problem with that post is all it does is criticise and complain but suggests no alternative.