Indyref 2 (2)

[TDYER63]

On 7/13/2023 at 12:06 PM, Orraloon said:

I must be reading this wrong. From what I can see, they are suggesting band E would go up by 7.5%. That's less than inflation. Can't be right, is it?

People pick and choose what they moan about. They pay 10-15 % inflated prices on everything from food to home building to travel yet expect the cooncil to find a magic money tree. 
From a political perspective though council tax increase is an easy hit for the opposition. 

[hampden_loon2878]

RIP winnie,,, we need more like you 

 

https://t.co/qBnqFGi72a

[Ally Bongo]

Phillipa Whitford the latest SNP MP to state she is standing down

[Squirrelhumper]

On 7/14/2023 at 2:34 PM, mcguffin said:

The main thing is that he supports Independence. 

Can see why he's leaving SNP then as they've shown next to no interest in it for a while now. 

[Squirrelhumper]

2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Phillipa Whitford the latest SNP MP to state she is standing down

That's a shame, she's one who'll actually be missed. 

[hampden_loon2878]

2 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

That's a shame, she's one who'll actually be missed. 

yes i have a lot of time for her

 

[Hertsscot]

2 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

That's a shame, she's one who'll actually be missed. 

Agreed. I know this will be interpreted as leaving the sinking SNP ship but the reality is that there's only so much the SNP can do in the UK Parliament. Even if every seat in Scotland was held by the SNP they'd still be patronised, ignored and out voted. I think the best bet would be SNP holding the balance of power with a minority Government. The loss of good MPs means there is less chance of that happening so her not standing is a shame. 

More positively I'd like to think that the likes of Whitford might have greater freedom to promote independence outside the confines of being an MP.

[scotlad]

It's a pity, because she is good, although, in fairness, she is 64 now and has had a demanding career as a doctor as well as her stint as an MP. Big shoes to fill there though.

[mcguffin]

4 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Can see why he's leaving SNP then as they've shown next to no interest in it for a while now. 

you may well be right 😞   (I don't know. Maybe we need some cross-party initiative in the next few years? Surely the bulk of SNP supporters must still be hungry for independence, even if their salaried representatives are more lukewarm. And *surely* there must voters with sympathies towards independence in the Labour Party? Maybe even within the Conservative Party, LibDems and Greens?)

[Alibi]

16 hours ago, mcguffin said:

you may well be right 😞   (I don't know. Maybe we need some cross-party initiative in the next few years? Surely the bulk of SNP supporters must still be hungry for independence, even if their salaried representatives are more lukewarm. And *surely* there must voters with sympathies towards independence in the Labour Party? Maybe even within the Conservative Party, LibDems and Greens?)

I'm sure the vast bulk of SNP members still want indy, and it's something like 35% of Labour voters in Scotland who also want indy.  Bear in mind that the SNP has been under attack from the MSM for many years now and the ridiculously protracted "investigation" into SNP finances (which has not led to any charges being brought so far) plus the constant "ferries" narrative is bound to affect support at this stage.  There was a poll yesterday which apparently suggested the SNP would get about 32.5% of the vote for a UK election if held today, and would only get 14 seats as a result, but frankly that sounds a bit far fetched.  As soon a a genuine election campaign starts, Labour will be shredded by the revelation that they are pro-brexit, anti immigrant, anti single market, anti indy, anti indyref2, all matters that many people don't realise at the moment as the MSM keep those things pretty much obscured. Sarwar has looked a total arse trying to defend the two child benefit cap.  how is he going to sell pro brexit to the electorate.

It would maybe help if Alba would stop some of the more over the top attackes on the SNP and concentrate on what really matters.  Salmond generally criticises with a degree of restraint.  Worth bearing in mind that we are all supposed to be on the same side.  Yesterday there was a story going around about Steven Flynn eating lobster - a sort of let them eat cake story - but the reality was that he was at an event promoting Scottish seafood, an even in memory of a recently deceased businessman in Oban.  it wasn't the yoons attacking him; it was Alba supporters, or at least people who claimed they are Alba supporters.  I get the feeling that many of them are posting under a false flag.

The SNP needs a re-boot.  The toxic policies need to be dropped pronto, and we need to get back to sensible, pragmatic governance.  I'm not at all convinced the current leadership has the charisma or ability to do that, but they need to get a move on. and for the imminent UK election, they need to tear Labour's evident Toryism tribute act to pieces in the campaign. I'm trying to think who could do that, but unfortunately the obvious name isn't even in the sNP now.

[aaid]

42 minutes ago, Alibi said:.

It would maybe help if Alba would stop some of the more over the top attackes on the SNP and concentrate on what really matters.  Salmond generally criticises with a degree of restraint.  Worth bearing in mind that we are all supposed to be on the same side.  Yesterday there was a story going around about Steven Flynn eating lobster - a sort of let them eat cake story - but the reality was that he was at an event promoting Scottish seafood, an even in memory of a recently deceased businessman in Oban.  it wasn't the yoons attacking him; it was Alba supporters, or at least people who claimed they are Alba supporters.  I get the feeling that many of them are posting under a false flag.

Chris McEleny wrote to Angus Robertson recently to complain about Nazi exhibits in the War Museum in Edinburgh Castle.

Despite the fact that it’s nothing to do with the Scottish Government, it’s a War Museum - what do you think is going to be in it?

This isn’t some random loon, it’s the General Secretary of Alba.  That’s what we’re dealing with.  

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, Alibi said:

I'm sure the vast bulk of SNP members still want indy, and it's something like 35% of Labour voters in Scotland who also want indy.  Bear in mind that the SNP has been under attack from the MSM for many years now and the ridiculously protracted "investigation" into SNP finances (which has not led to any charges being brought so far) plus the constant "ferries" narrative is bound to affect support at this stage.  There was a poll yesterday which apparently suggested the SNP would get about 32.5% of the vote for a UK election if held today, and would only get 14 seats as a result, but frankly that sounds a bit far fetched.  As soon a a genuine election campaign starts, Labour will be shredded by the revelation that they are pro-brexit, anti immigrant, anti single market, anti indy, anti indyref2, all matters that many people don't realise at the moment as the MSM keep those things pretty much obscured. Sarwar has looked a total arse trying to defend the two child benefit cap.  how is he going to sell pro brexit to the electorate.

It would maybe help if Alba would stop some of the more over the top attackes on the SNP and concentrate on what really matters.  Salmond generally criticises with a degree of restraint.  Worth bearing in mind that we are all supposed to be on the same side.  Yesterday there was a story going around about Steven Flynn eating lobster - a sort of let them eat cake story - but the reality was that he was at an event promoting Scottish seafood, an even in memory of a recently deceased businessman in Oban.  it wasn't the yoons attacking him; it was Alba supporters, or at least people who claimed they are Alba supporters.  I get the feeling that many of them are posting under a false flag.

The SNP needs a re-boot.  The toxic policies need to be dropped pronto, and we need to get back to sensible, pragmatic governance.  I'm not at all convinced the current leadership has the charisma or ability to do that, but they need to get a move on. and for the imminent UK election, they need to tear Labour's evident Toryism tribute act to pieces in the campaign. I'm trying to think who could do that, but unfortunately the obvious name isn't even in the sNP now.

We had the ideal opportunity to reboot the party three months ago but instead Mr Continuity was elected instead. So far he's looking very Craig Levein - taking over a team on the slide and keeping them there. Surely he wouldn't survive losing 30+ seats next year though.

Despite Starmer's red Toryism that would put even Blair to shame, I get the impression a lot of floating voters and soft-Yesers might vote Labour simply to get rid of the Tories. Basically a return of the voting strategy pre-2015. Labour might be offering little alternative to the Tories, other than being less posh and a bit more competent, but that'll be enough for some.

[Hertsscot]

3 hours ago, scotlad said:

 I get the impression a lot of floating voters and soft-Yesers might vote Labour simply to get rid of the Tories. Basically a return of the voting strategy pre-2015. Labour might be offering little alternative to the Tories, other than being less posh and a bit more competent, but that'll be enough for some.

But they don't need to vote Labour to get rid of the Tories. Whether we get the Tories or not is decided in England. If people vote for SNP they'll not be propping up the Tories. Voting Labour would be a massive tactical error. It will be seized upon by Unionists as proof that Scots don't want independence. We'll get four or five years of Labour and then we'll get the return of the Tory party on steroids.

[stocky]

15 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

But they don't need to vote Labour to get rid of the Tories. Whether we get the Tories or not is decided in England. If people vote for SNP they'll not be propping up the Tories. Voting Labour would be a massive tactical error. It will be seized upon by Unionists as proof that Scots don't want independence. We'll get four or five years of Labour and then we'll get the return of the Tory party on steroids.

Mibee that's what Scotland needs at the moment.

Proof that labour are not the answer, it's not the' political party ' that's the problem it's the political union 

I always thought the second ref would come around 2033-2035, Brexit gave us an opportunity to have one sooner, but we blew that.

 

labour will do nothing for Scotland.

 

[Alibi]

7 hours ago, aaid said:

Chris McEleny wrote to Angus Robertson recently to complain about Nazi exhibits in the War Museum in Edinburgh Castle.

Despite the fact that it’s nothing to do with the Scottish Government, it’s a War Museum - what do you think is going to be in it?

This isn’t some random loon, it’s the General Secretary of Alba.  That’s what we’re dealing with.  

I'm on nodding terms with Chris as he's usually at Morton games, but some of the stuff he comes out with is a bit daft.  That one sounds like just trying to find something to complain about.  I think Edinburgh Castle counts as a military base and so the museum is probably not a devolved matter, but nevertheless it's a museum and you'd expect to find relevant items in such a place. I'd say a swastika is very much a relevant item in that context.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Alibi

[Alibi]

37 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

But they don't need to vote Labour to get rid of the Tories. Whether we get the Tories or not is decided in England. If people vote for SNP they'll not be propping up the Tories. Voting Labour would be a massive tactical error. It will be seized upon by Unionists as proof that Scots don't want independence. We'll get four or five years of Labour and then we'll get the return of the Tory party on steroids.

Spot on.  Electing SNP MPs will keep the Tories out every bit as effectively as electing Labour MPs in Scotland, in fact probably more so as it may also give us some leverage over Labour that could ameliorate some of their neo-Tory policies.  electing Labour mPs in Scotland is saying that you want Brexit, oppose indyref2 and indy, oppose immigration, and support a lot of other things that Scotland doesn't want - Labour don't want freedom of movement for example.  Give them a strong overall majority and Scotland's energy resources get stoles (but hey, we get a few HQ jobs for a year or so, until Labour decide to relocate the HQ to London.  Listen to what Sir Starmer is saying - because no matter how Anus Sarwar tries to spin it, that's exactly what you'll get if Scotland votes Labour.  If you're stupid enough to do that, then hell mend you, you deserve everything that follows.  I have my issues with the SNP, and they are many at the moment, and I do wonder how much infiltration there has been and why they have been pushing so many daft policies, but there is no way I would ever vote for any unionist party.  And I would never stop rubbing it in with anyone who did vote Labour because they are in reality voting for a slightly less deep blue shade of Tory.  As for Alba, they have Alex Salmond, who is still the best politician in Scotland by a country mile, but beyond that, they are pretty threadbare.  What a pity Alex didn't rejoin the SNP after his acquittal (though I doubt he'd have been allowed to by the leadership).  He would have been invaluable in a senior statesman role.

[scotlad]

50 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

But they don't need to vote Labour to get rid of the Tories. Whether we get the Tories or not is decided in England. If people vote for SNP they'll not be propping up the Tories. Voting Labour would be a massive tactical error. It will be seized upon by Unionists as proof that Scots don't want independence. We'll get four or five years of Labour and then we'll get the return of the Tory party on steroids.

Hey, I know that, and you know that, but it would seem that a lot of people in Scotland are still labouring (pun intended) under the misapprehension that their vote actually makes a significant difference in the context of a UK GE.

I'm not that old but even I remember the "feeble fifty" Scottish Labour MPs of the 1980s and early 90s, elected with massive majorities but who achieved the square root of fuck all until Blair, Campbell, Mandelson et al convinced the good folk of middle England to get on board with their New Labour project (then some of the loyal feeble were rewarded with ministerial posts - kerching!).

People are, rightly, giving the SNP pelters for their eight years of largesse but appear to have forgotten the decades of troughing from the red rosette adorned monkeys that we used to send down their. Memories of fecking goldfish.

In fairness, the reasoning of some could be that since independence appears to have been kicked into the long grass for the foreseeable the next best thing is to get shot of the Tories. I can see the logic but it's massively flawed. I agree with you, electing dozens of pro-union MPs sends exactly the wrong message. I'll not be doing it, I can assure you; then again, I'm lucky in that I'm likely to have a decent SNP candidate to vote for.

[mcguffin]

11 hours ago, Alibi said:

I'm sure the vast bulk of SNP members still want indy, and it's something like 35% of Labour voters in Scotland who also want indy.  Bear in mind that the SNP has been under attack from the MSM for many years now and the ridiculously protracted "investigation" into SNP finances (which has not led to any charges being brought so far) plus the constant "ferries" narrative is bound to affect support at this stage.  There was a poll yesterday which apparently suggested the SNP would get about 32.5% of the vote for a UK election if held today, and would only get 14 seats as a result, but frankly that sounds a bit far fetched.  As soon a a genuine election campaign starts, Labour will be shredded by the revelation that they are pro-brexit, anti immigrant, anti single market, anti indy, anti indyref2, all matters that many people don't realise at the moment as the MSM keep those things pretty much obscured. Sarwar has looked a total arse trying to defend the two child benefit cap.  how is he going to sell pro brexit to the electorate.

It would maybe help if Alba would stop some of the more over the top attackes on the SNP and concentrate on what really matters.  Salmond generally criticises with a degree of restraint.  Worth bearing in mind that we are all supposed to be on the same side.  Yesterday there was a story going around about Steven Flynn eating lobster - a sort of let them eat cake story - but the reality was that he was at an event promoting Scottish seafood, an even in memory of a recently deceased businessman in Oban.  it wasn't the yoons attacking him; it was Alba supporters, or at least people who claimed they are Alba supporters.  I get the feeling that many of them are posting under a false flag.

The SNP needs a re-boot.  The toxic policies need to be dropped pronto, and we need to get back to sensible, pragmatic governance.  I'm not at all convinced the current leadership has the charisma or ability to do that, but they need to get a move on. and for the imminent UK election, they need to tear Labour's evident Toryism tribute act to pieces in the campaign. I'm trying to think who could do that, but unfortunately the obvious name isn't even in the sNP now.

A lot of good points! That estimate "...35% of Labour voters in Scotland...also want indy..." is pretty encouraging if accurate. On the one hand, it's a  bit depressing that the Indy supporters are maybe entrenched in their respective parties (SNP vs Alba vs Labour and so on). But I also find it encouraging that there are members of all these parties (and other parties, and independents) who support independence. 

Would love for their to be some kind of informal 'truce' agreed with the parties and a joint strategy on  the-one-and-only-one issue of independence drawn up.  (Other countries have different political parties, different viewpoints, heated debates, biased media outlets. But somehow they've still managed to become independent and run their own affairs. Are we are so different? I don't think so)

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, mcguffin said:

 That estimate "...35% of Labour voters in Scotland...also want indy..." is pretty encouraging if accurate.

I'm thinking that it is pish as it doesn't make sense

First of all 99% of British Labour in Scotland's elected officials are rabid Yoons and almost as rabid as the Tories

Secondly any resemblance of British Labour being a red socialist party are long gone unless you are crazy enough to read the Mail and Express

Thirdly if you want Independence why the fuck would you vote British Labour

As i said - pish unless i am missing something

[mcguffin]

1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said:

I'm thinking that it is pish as it doesn't make sense

First of all 99% of British Labour in Scotland's elected officials are rabid Yoons and almost as rabid as the Tories

Secondly any resemblance of British Labour being a red socialist party are long gone unless you are crazy enough to read the Mail and Express

Thirdly if you want Independence why the fuck would you vote British Labour

As i said - pish unless i am missing something

could both things be true?: 35% of Scottish Labour voters support independence, despite voting for British Labour politicians, 99% of which are, as you succintly put it, 'rabid yoons'? (Crazy as that may sound? )

(Also, you've got me thinking as to who the 1% of British Labour who aren't rabid yoons might be? 🕵️‍♂️)

[mcguffin]

Interestingly, Lesley Riddoch's latest podcast touches on the challenges facing Scottish Labour (Spoiler: she gives Keir Starmer a bit of a kicking):

Will the Starmer 2 child benefit cap stance be the final straw for the Scottish Labour left?
https://twitter.com/LesleyRiddoch/status/1681682053127962624

[aaid]

10 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

I'm thinking that it is pish as it doesn't make sense

First of all 99% of British Labour in Scotland's elected officials are rabid Yoons and almost as rabid as the Tories

Secondly any resemblance of British Labour being a red socialist party are long gone unless you are crazy enough to read the Mail and Express

Thirdly if you want Independence why the fuck would you vote British Labour

As i said - pish unless i am missing something

It’s really quite simple.  In a referendum they would vote Yes.  However, they don’t put independence top of their priority list above all else.  So in an election, they will vote Labour for whatever reasons they vote Labour MSP group.  Not everyone who supports Indy is an at all costs, scorched earth, Indy fundamentalists.

i suspect there’s a few secret pro-Indy types in the MSP group.

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

It’s really quite simple.  In a referendum they would vote Yes.  However, they don’t put independence top of their priority list above all else.  So in an election, they will vote Labour for whatever reasons they vote Labour MSP group.  Not everyone who supports Indy is an at all costs, scorched earth, Indy fundamentalists.

i suspect there’s a few secret pro-Indy types in the MSP group.

Still think it's pish

The only Labour voters left are Unionists - and weirdo Unionists at that

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

It’s really quite simple.  In a referendum they would vote Yes.  However, they don’t put independence top of their priority list above all else.  So in an election, they will vote Labour for whatever reasons they vote Labour MSP group.  Not everyone who supports Indy is an at all costs, scorched earth, Indy fundamentalists.

i suspect there’s a few secret pro-Indy types in the MSP group.

Yes, I recall in 2014 campaigning alongside Labour members who wanted indy - they were an organised group, Labour for independence or something like that.  Given that in those days, Labour and SNP probably shared a fair amount of common ground, it worked well.  Nowadays Labour has moved to where the Tories were about ten years ago so there's not as much common ground, but there still seem to be Labour members who haven't moved to a party more reflective of their own beliefs.

[PapofGlencoe]

12 hours ago, mcguffin said:

A lot of good points! That estimate "...35% of Labour voters in Scotland...also want indy..." is pretty encouraging if accurate. On the one hand, it's a  bit depressing that the Indy supporters are maybe entrenched in their respective parties (SNP vs Alba vs Labour and so on). But I also find it encouraging that there are members of all these parties (and other parties, and independents) who support independence. 

Would love for their to be some kind of informal 'truce' agreed with the parties and a joint strategy on  the-one-and-only-one issue of independence drawn up.  (Other countries have different political parties, different viewpoints, heated debates, biased media outlets. But somehow they've still managed to become independent and run their own affairs. Are we are so different? I don't think so)

 

the 35% of labour voters is probably more accurate than it's ever been now as they'll be former SNP voters.