Scotland v Moldova

[Tartan blood]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Our strikers, as everyone will readily agree, are not up to the task of carrying us through qualifying with a number of goals scored. That being the case we are heavily relying on goals from others such as those mentioned who fluffed chances and they weren't exactly tough ones. Robertson, Gilmour, Christie and Tierney all from no more than ten yards out and only one forced the goalkeeper into a save. Sorry that is just not good enough.

I agree, all 4 of them could/should have done better with their shots. But getting goals from 3 of those players is a bonus, not expected. Chrostie you could maybe say has a bit more expectation on him to score. I think you should lay off 3 of our best players for not scoring.

Playing 2 up front is partly what is killing us. In my opinion, it is now our weakest position. Why would the solution be to just play more players that are not capable? I'd much rather have a Turnbull on the pitch, who we know is capable of scoring from nothing.

[Toepoke]

32 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Aye, if we don't take a point in Austria then it's all over. 

Not if Denmark beat Israel then Austria in Copenhagen. 

Ok we'd probably then have to beat the Danes at Hampden but at least it would keep it interesting to the end 

 

[Guest Scot1]

5 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I'd be more encouraged if I saw some evidence that we are trying to work on it. Just one example is Robbo's miss. Almost exactly the same as he did against Czech Rep. How many times does he need to do that before somebody sits him down and tells he doesn't need to blast the ball when he is in that position? He has got enough forward momentum just from his run, he doesn't need to try to add any more by trying to blast a shot away. All he needs is a decent connection and direct the ball either side of the goalie. Do they not sit down after games and go though what went well and what went wrong? Are they just too nice to mention it in case they upset their captain? I just don't know what's going on inside their heads. This is just very basic stuff. It must be a mental thing, they should have the skills to do it.

There’s been plenty of examples of poor decision making, lack of composure by a lot of players in a number of matches. Shooting and skying it over the bar when a five yard pass would leave a teammate with a tap in to an open goal from 4-5 yards out.

[Toepoke]

9 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Yes I largely agree with this. Either way we need four points out of our next two games at minimum. A draw in Vienna and a win V Israel at Hampden would have the sort of bonus of keeping Austria in with an outside chance of qualifying and they still have to play Israel at home in the penultimate match. I'd sooner see Israel having to get a result against a motivated rather than de-motivated Austria side. 

Austria are as good as guaranteed a play-off due to the Nations League so you could say they're already demotivated. 

 

[Orraloon]

13 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Personally I think we have to win in Austria at this point to give ourselves a real chance of second.

Not just for the points (which would likely send us second as Israel play Denmark at home next) we need a 'big' win like that for the next game after against Israel.

Then of course we cant drop a single point against Faroe or Moldova (both away) and interestingly the final home game against Denmark will very likely be played when Denmark have long since qualified and might not be up for risking injuries etc in what to them would be a meaningless game. We might have a chance of something there under these circumstances.

Beat Austria away and then see what happens... (I am shaking my head at myself as I type this. 😀 )

It really is hard to convince yourself to see any positives after last night's performance. It was truly awful. But at least we won. I had a wee feeling that they might equalise in the last few minutes. 

And the Israel result was bonus for us. A draw might have been a wee bit better but we definitely didn't want Austria to win. 

It's still in our own hands. Win our next 4 games and we should probably get a playoff spot. Listen to me "winning 4 games in a row" must be aff ma nut.

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

I agree, all 4 of them could/should have done better with their shots. But getting goals from 3 of those players is a bonus, not expected. Chrostie you could maybe say has a bit more expectation on him to score. I think you should lay off 3 of our best players for not scoring.

Playing 2 up front is partly what is killing us. In my opinion, it is now our weakest position. Why would the solution be to just play more players that are not capable? I'd much rather have a Turnbull on the pitch, who we know is capable of scoring from nothing.

It is am accumulative effect though wherein we have several players who cannot snuff out several chances. If they are out best players expectations have to be raised for them to be able to at least test the keeper from ten yards (or less) out.

I am not blaming them for our lack of goals per se but it all adds up to us missing golden chances. Our top scorer at present is a midfielder and generally we are relying on all areas of the pitch to weigh in with goals to make up for our striker's lack of finishing prowess.

So what is the answer? As you say perhaps revert back to what has served us well using a single striker supported by an attacking midfielder. It is that format that got us crucial goals V Serbia (play-off) and away to Israel with Fraser's goal to equalise.

[Diamond Scot]

Whilst its obvious that we would benefit from a better striker, it wouldnt have changed last nights scorline. All of our chances fell to other players.

I dont buy into the thinking that these players can be excused as its not their job to score. It might not be their primary job but its still their job. In the same way that forwards and attacking mids still have a defensive job to do.

Tierney looked like he totally mistimed his header, thats something that can be practised, Robertson lashed at his shot in the same way he did in the Czech game, again that can be practised. Gilmour has already said he go over excited, he should learn from that. Christie again didnt hit the target on his goof foot. He needs coached and needs to keep his shots down in these positions. Others like Hanley had a couple of good heading chances.

We need to be tasking all of the players to work on their finishing at club level. Whether that be staying behind once a week to work on shooting and heading drills. All good sides share the goals around and missing those chances last night will cost us as its done previously.

[killiefaetheferry]

Just watched the highlights of Israel v Austria. Some cracking goals. Solomon a threat going in off the left and his opener was top class. The Austrian defence was poor. Dragovic is as slow as a week in the jail. I'd fancy Adams with Fraser to get some joy. Arnautovic again showed his quality with a great bit of skill to get space to bang a 20 yarder into the top corner. He will be a threat, obviously. We've drawn with both of these teams. We are of a similar standard. Comes down to the players on the day. The Israeli forwards are in good form. Ours not so much. Form changes and we need our boys to step up and be brave. Lots of extreme views on this thread - it's a bit like the Killie forum 😂. I'm somewhere in the middle. Disappointed with our performances and lack of goals. Cautiously optimistic for Tuesday that we can get a bit more cohesion in our play and hopefully get a result. Clarke is nothing if not pragmatic and grinding out a boring 0-0 would be a decent outcome for me. 

[thplinth]

4 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It really is hard to convince yourself to see any positives after last night's performance. It was truly awful. But at least we won. I had a wee feeling that they might equalise in the last few minutes. 

And the Israel result was bonus for us. A draw might have been a wee bit better but we definitely didn't want Austria to win. 

It's still in our own hands. Win our next 4 games and we should probably get a playoff spot. Listen to me "winning 4 games in a row" must be aff ma nut.

It was awful, all this talk of dominating them is laughable.

And what a risk we took sitting back and not burying them. If they had nicked a late goal... (and I am with you on that being a real possibility) then that would have been us fucked. Mentally and mathematically. 😀

[Orraloon]

9 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

There’s been plenty of examples of poor decision making, lack of composure by a lot of players in a number of matches. Shooting and skying it over the bar when a five yard pass would leave a teammate with a tap in to an open goal from 4-5 yards out.

Hopefully they are sitting down and analysing every single chance and trying to explain to the players what they could have done differently so that it might help them if they are in that situation again. I'm not convinced that any of that learning from mistakes is happening. I see no sign of it.

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, killiefaetheferry said:

Just watched the highlights of Israel v Austria. Some cracking goals. Solomon a threat going in off the left and his opener was top class. The Austrian defence was poor. Dragovic is as slow as a week in the jail. I'd fancy Adams with Fraser to get some joy. Arnautovic again showed his quality with a great bit of skill to get space to bang a 20 yarder into the top corner. He will be a threat, obviously. We've drawn with both of these teams. We are of a similar standard. Comes down to the players on the day. The Israeli forwards are in good form. Ours not so much. Form changes and we need our boys to step up and be brave. Lots of extreme views on this thread - it's a bit like the Killie forum 😂. I'm somewhere in the middle. Disappointed with our performances and lack of goals. Cautiously optimistic for Tuesday that we can get a bit more cohesion in our play and hopefully get a result. Clarke is nothing if not pragmatic and grinding out a boring 0-0 would be a decent outcome for me. 

We need four points from our next two games (minimum) and at present I am more hopeful of a win on Tuesday than of a win against Israel. Israel can park the bus very effectively and will do so at Hampden and after our showing last night I am not confident of our chances of breaking them down. That makes three points on Tuesday a must.

[Guest Scot1]

Dykes is on form, he’s scored 11 goals and had 4 assists in his last 15 games. Sure he has his limitations, but he’s been scoring almost a goal a game for months.

[Tartan blood]

3 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It is am accumulative effect though wherein we have several players who cannot snuff out several chances. If they are out best players expectations have to be raised for them to be able to at least test the keeper from ten yards (or less) out.

I am not blaming them for our lack of goals per se but it all adds up to us missing golden chances. Our top scorer at present is a midfielder and generally we are relying on all areas of the pitch to weigh in with goals to make up for our striker's lack of finishing prowess.

So what is the answer? As you say perhaps revert back to what has served us well using a single striker supported by an attacking midfielder. It is that format that got us crucial goals V Serbia (play-off) and away to Israel with Fraser's goal to equalise.

Another way of looking at it is that we are so overly reliant on our fullbacks and defensive players to create and score goals. It is criminal that that is the case, when we have players like Fraser and Turnbull sitting on the bench.

I really don't mind a back 5 against tougher opponents, but I do mind having 2 ineffectual strikers and 3 holding midfielders in front of them.

5221 is far better than 532. Though I'd much prefer 4231, but I guess we are stuck with a back 5 for the foreseeable.

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, Tartan blood said:

Another way of looking at it is that we are so overly reliant on our fullbacks and defensive players to create and score goals. It is criminal that that is the case, when we have players like Fraser and Turnbull sitting on the bench.

I really don't mind a back 5 against tougher opponents, but I do mind having 2 ineffectual strikers and 3 holding midfielders in front of them.

5221 is far better than 532. Though I'd much prefer 4231, but I guess we are stuck with a back 5 for the foreseeable.

Yes I agree.

[thplinth]

Moldova was a bit of a yard stick for me to see how we compare to our main rivals. Israel pumped them 1-4 away and Austria handled them comfortably 0-2 away. Denmark butchered them 8-0 at home... So our solitary goal at home does suggest we are the runt team of the top four teams.

Defensively we seem competitive, the draws against Israel and Austria show that, we can hold our own but we are toothless, lack confidence and play in fear. 

Does Steve Clarke know his first choice team and formation at this point? Or is he still trying to work it out. He seems a bit rabbit in the headlights at times out there...

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by thplinth

[daviebee]

41 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

I'll be in a small group on this board but I am encouraged by those stats. It's something the squad can work with and improve on

 

I'm not.  I think it's absolutely fkin awful.  You'd think by the law of averages that 4 or 5 of them might've crept in just under the bar.  Instead we've got things like our captain and best player regularly nearly decapitating some poor bstrd in the queue at the pie stand.

We need a striker coach and sports psychologist as suggested by Orraloon.  The players need to train being in these positions in front of goal over and over again until it's programmed into their muscle memory.

[Orraloon]

12 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Whilst its obvious that we would benefit from a better striker, it wouldnt have changed last nights scorline. All of our chances fell to other players.

I dont buy into the thinking that these players can be excused as its not their job to score. It might not be their primary job but its still their job. In the same way that forwards and attacking mids still have a defensive job to do.

Tierney looked like he totally mistimed his header, thats something that can be practised, Robertson lashed at his shot in the same way he did in the Czech game, again that can be practised. Gilmour has already said he go over excited, he should learn from that. Christie again didnt hit the target on his goof foot. He needs coached and needs to keep his shots down in these positions. Others like Hanley had a couple of good heading chances.

We need to be tasking all of the players to work on their finishing at club level. Whether that be staying behind once a week to work on shooting and heading drills. All good sides share the goals around and missing those chances last night will cost us as its done previously.

Closed his eyes and let the ball hit him on the side of his face. Basic stuff. 

[Orraloon]

21 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

Austria are as good as guaranteed a play-off due to the Nations League so you could say they're already demotivated. 

 

Good point, I'd forgotten about that.

[Guest Scot1]

3 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Moldova was a bit of yard stick form me to see how we compare to our main rivals. Israel pumped them 1-4 away and Austria handled them comfortably 0-2 away. Denmark butchered them 8-0 at home... So our solitary goal at home does suggest we are the runt team of the top four teams.

Defensively we seem competitive, the draws against Israel and Austria show that, we can hold our own but we are toothless, lack confidence and play in fear. 

Does Steve Clarke know his first choice team and formation at this point? Or is he still trying to work it out. He seems a bit rabbit in the headlights at times out there...

 

I’m not Clarke’s biggest fan and I do think we need to be playing a back 4 as our main formation, switching to the 5 against better opposition, tricky away ties etc. 
But to be fair to him, there’s been a turnover of players in the last year or so. The emergence of Gilmour, Patterson, Hendry, Hanley, Cooper, Turnbull, Nisbet, Adams, Ferguson etc. So it’s been difficult to get a settled team and that’s not taking into consideration injuries, suspensions. I think most of realise we’ve got a relatively young squad that won’t be near it best for a while yet.

[thplinth]

Learn from our mistakes? First of all you have to able to admit them. Which reminds me did anyone ever acknowledge that the keeper fucked up with the Schick goal at the euros? I think we just pretended it was a 'wonder goal'... 😀

[Guest Scot1]

7 minutes ago, daviebee said:

I'm not.  I think it's absolutely fkin awful.  You'd think by the law of averages that 4 or 5 of them might've crept in just under the bar.  Instead we've got things like our captain and best player regularly nearly decapitating some poor bstrd in the queue at the pie stand.

We need a striker coach and sports psychologist as suggested by Orraloon.  The players need to train being in these positions in front of goal over and over again until it's programmed into their muscle memory.

It’s definitely something that needs looked at, even if they learn to havr the composure to square the ball 5 yards to the teammate standing unmarked, onside, in the 6 yard box,with a tap in to an open goal. That would be a good start.

[Guest Scot1]

5 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Learn from our mistakes? First of all you have to able to admit them. Which reminds me did anyone ever acknowledge that the keeper fucked up with the Schick goal at the euros? I think we just pretended it was a 'wonder goal'... 😀

He’s not in the squad anymore?

[BraveheartGordon]

16 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Moldova was a bit of a yard stick for me to see how we compare to our main rivals. Israel pumped them 1-4 away and Austria handled them comfortably 0-2 away. Denmark butchered them 8-0 at home... So our solitary goal at home does suggest we are the runt team of the top four teams.

Defensively we seem competitive, the draws against Israel and Austria show that, we can hold our own but we are toothless, lack confidence and play in fear. 

Does Steve Clarke know his first choice team and formation at this point? Or is he still trying to work it out. He seems a bit rabbit in the headlights at times out there...

 

This is nonsense to look at it this way.

 

if you compare Denmark’s result against the Faroe Islands last night to everyone else’s against them you’d think Denmark were the worst of the 4 best seeds.

Every game is different and we need to take our own games on merit and get the points we need against them.

[Orraloon]

6 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Learn from our mistakes? First of all you have to able to admit them. Which reminds me did anyone ever acknowledge that the keeper fucked up with the Schick goal at the euros? I think we just pretended it was a 'wonder goal'... 😀

Well, I suppose you could say he learnt from that mistake because that keeper has been dropped. I'm not convinced that Gordon is much better though. He was at least partially at fault for both goals in Denmark.

[thplinth]

I think Steve Clarke has adopted that Fergie approach where he would not criticize his players in public and it would all take place behind closed doors. At least that is what I assumed at the euros.