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25 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Tactical yoon voting will see Swinson home.

Yep

Although Swindler won it in 2017 with 21023 votes -  a majority of 5339

The SNP got 15684

Labour and Conservative got around 7500 votes each which means 15,000 votes are up for grabs

The SNP have to run the campaign on the Lib Dems not being able to stop Brexit and want to drag Scotland down with it

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5 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

45-55

The Fib Dems will spend a fortune and leave no smear unturned to win it

They really are a cunt of a party and the electorate of East Dunbartonshire deserve her

Hope the yellow Tory will lose her seat I see there party conference is doon here next week 

Swinson voted with tories for the bedroom tax houseing benefit cuts invalidity cuts disabled cuts’ cut youth unemployment funding charge student fees tax us at 20% vat take military action voted against the mansion tax so all the best to the snp at the next general election 

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8 minutes ago, wheres the pies said:

Hope the yellow Tory will lose her seat I see there party conference is doon here next week 

Swinson voted with tories for the bedroom tax houseing benefit cuts invalidity cuts disabled cuts’ cut youth unemployment funding charge student fees tax us at 20% vat take military action voted against the mansion tax so all the best to the snp at the next general election 

All those cuts but it will still not stop yoons voting for her for their own warped reasons.

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For parliamentary democracy not to be trashed, it seems increasingly to me that a form of Brexit must happen, and soon.  Cummings and Johnson - and the reaction from the other side - are pushing democracy and the constitution to their limits. Suspending parliament, dragging in the Queen, involving the Lord Chancellor, talk of ousting the speaker, talk of the PM going to jail, hard to see how this will end well. Both sides are able to claim their more and more extreme / unprecedented actions are "in the name of democracy", with the other side screaming it's the other side killing democracy.

Seems to me there needs to be some form of Brexit, even if it is the softest kind (Brexit in Name Only) including single market and/or customs union. (BBC continuing to peddle the idea that it was only the backstop stopping the WA, when if some other red lines had been released the other way, more from Labour and other opposition parties could have supported it). Even if it means that the day after Brexit there is an immediate fight for another referendum, this time 3 way: for the new status quo, for fullest hardest Brexit, and for Rejoin. I think only actual Brexit can kill off/cure/neutralise/fulfil the 2016 vote. Only if/when that happens, can the 17.4m be consigned to history and the people's will reset to nil-nil. 

My question is whether there is still time for May's deal to be tabled and - if voted for - enacted? I wonder if there is time for the opposition parties - if they are in control of parliament - to agree a deal that could win a majority. I mean if they already managed to beat the government several times as it is, why would it not be possible to table and win a deal similar to what May proposed? If the opposition is serious about above all stopping a no deal Brexit this could solve that, and it could/should also get support from the non-rebel Tories (many of whom already voted for it), leaving only an ERG rump to be routed.  

I just can't see "No Brexit" being denied. If Brexit supporters are happy to see Boris go to jail as a martyr (civil obedience) (not that I think Boris would have the guts) - if they think fulfilling Brexit is above the law, then where does it end.

As other have said, imagine if Yes had won in 2014 but unionists were blocking it, dragging everything through the courts, using every parliamentary trick in the book (plus dragging in the Queen and ousting speaker and every other trick you can think of), to thwart independence, you can imagine the reaction here. 

Edited by exile

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1 minute ago, exile said:

For parliamentary democracy not to be trashed, it seems increasingly to me that a form of Brexit must happen, and soon.  Cummings and Johnson - and the reaction from the other side - are pushing democracy and the constitution to their limits. Suspending parliament, dragging in the Queen, talk of ousting the speaker, talk of the PM going to jail, hard to see how this will end well. Both sides are able to claim their more and more extreme / unprecedented actions are "in the name of democracy", with the other side screaming it's the other side killing democracy.

Seems to me there needs to be some form of Brexit, even if it is the softest kind (Brexit in Name Only) including single market and/or customs union. (BBC continuing to peddle the idea that it was only the backstop stopping the WA, when if some other red lines had been released the other way, more form Labour etc could have supported it). Even if it means that the day after Brexit there is an immediate fight for another referendum, this time 3 way, for status quo, for fullest hardest Brexit, and rejoin.

My question is whether there is still time for May's deal to be tabled and - if voted for - enacted? I wonder if there is time for the opposition parties - if they are in control of parliament - to agree a deal that could win a majority. I mean if they managed to beat the government several times as it is, why would it not be possible to table and win a deal similar to what May proposed? If the opposition is serious about above all stopping a no deal Brexit this could solve that, and it could/should also get support from the non-rebel Tories (many of whom already voted for it).  

I just can't see "No Brexit" being denied. If Brexit supporters are happy to see Boris go to jail as a martyr (civil obedience) (not that I am saying Boris would have the guts) - if they think fulfilling Brexit is above the law, then where does it end.

As other have said, imagine if Yes had won in 2014 but unionists were blocking it, dragging everything through the courts, using every parliamentary trick in the book (and including the Queen and outsing speaker and every other trick you can think of), to thwart independence, you can imagine the reaction here. 

Is there time to bring Mays deal back?  Yes, after the EU council and I suspect they'll do exactly that - it might have some minor changes but will essentially be the same.

i don't think comparisons with 2014 or a further Indy Ref stack up.  The reason that we are where we are with Brexit is because it cuts across party lines in England.  Imagine if after the 2016 Brexit Referendum, the Tory party was completely United in wanting Brexit.  They had a majority at that point and why there might have been some debate on the detail, they would've got it through with minimal problems and we'd be out of the EU.

The only way we get to another Indy Referendum is if the SNP is in government.  Somehow I don't see 30% of SNP MSPs being No Voters 

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3 minutes ago, aaid said:

Is there time to bring Mays deal back?  Yes, after the EU council and I suspect they'll do exactly that - it might have some minor changes but will essentially be the same.

i don't think comparisons with 2014 or a further Indy Ref stack up.  The reason that we are where we are with Brexit is because it cuts across party lines in England.  Imagine if after the 2016 Brexit Referendum, the Tory party was completely United in wanting Brexit.  They had a majority at that point and why there might have been some debate on the detail, they would've got it through with minimal problems and we'd be out of the EU.

The only way we get to another Indy Referendum is if the SNP is in government.  Somehow I don't see 30% of SNP MSPs being No Voters 

I agree that if the Tory government (who called the 2016 referendum) were as united as the SNP government and determined to fulfil the result, then yes we'd be out of the EU.

The comparison I was making with 2014 (or a future IndyRef) was not to do with splits in the indy side but the combined forces of unionism trying to thwart independence, or Remain in the UK. This could be in there form of either Westminster stirring things up. weighing in, and/or, any sort of unionist gains in the next Holyrood election that could try to prevent independence or seek a rerun, or, even if the SNP had a clear run politically, unionist interests trying to fight the dissolution of the union through the courts.

The point of even mentioning all this is not so much to do with indy related things in front of us now, but to imagine, if you were an indy supporter, how you would feel if a Yes result in 2014 was in threat of being overturned by "UK-Remoaners" by means outside the Edinburgh Agreement, and/or Westminster not playing ball, or a UK supreme court overriding Scots law, etc. etc. You would not be impressed and you would never accept the democratic result being overturned. 

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21 minutes ago, exile said:

I agree that if the Tory government (who called the 2016 referendum) were as united as the SNP government and determined to fulfil the result, then yes we'd be out of the EU.

The comparison I was making with 2014 (or a future IndyRef) was not to do with splits in the indy side but the combined forces of unionism trying to thwart independence, or Remain in the UK. This could be in there form of either Westminster stirring things up. weighing in, and/or, any sort of unionist gains in the next Holyrood election that could try to prevent independence or seek a rerun, or, even if the SNP had a clear run politically, unionist interests trying to fight the dissolution of the union through the courts.

The point of even mentioning all this is not so much to do with indy related things in front of us now, but to imagine, if you were an indy supporter, how you would feel if a Yes result in 2014 was in threat of being overturned by "UK-Remoaners" by means outside the Edinburgh Agreement, and/or Westminster not playing ball, or a UK supreme court overriding Scots law, etc. etc. You would not be impressed and you would never accept the democratic result being overturned. 

H'mmm.   The various court cases re. Brexit have all been around the government overstepping its authority - or not - and acting contrary to the law.   

The arguments around "what would you think if No Supporters did xyz" are put forwards by people who have the view that the SNP shouldn't try and stop Brexit as Brexit somehow will make Indy more likely.  That's not a view I share.

There's a fundamental flaw in this argument that suggests we should somehow "play fair" and that Unionists will reciprocate in a future referendum.  Usually put forwards by the same people - not you specifically - who think there's some massive plot to stop Indy.

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46 minutes ago, aaid said:

H'mmm.   The various court cases re. Brexit have all been around the government overstepping its authority - or not - and acting contrary to the law.   

The arguments around "what would you think if No Supporters did xyz" are put forwards by people who have the view that the SNP shouldn't try and stop Brexit as Brexit somehow will make Indy more likely.  That's not a view I share.

There's a fundamental flaw in this argument that suggests we should somehow "play fair" and that Unionists will reciprocate in a future referendum.  Usually put forwards by the same people - not you specifically - who think there's some massive plot to stop Indy.

At this point I'm not expressing an opinion on how Scottish parties could/should game the situation for their (our) benefit. I haven't got that far. I am just observing the state of UK democracy via Westminster, as I see it.

The court cases are not decided yet, and my point on that front is that even if they succeed it will be perceived by some as winning on a legal technicality at odds with democracy and won't solve the "17.4m".

I don't imagine unionist parties thanking the SNP for anything or for conceding any advantage to independence on any sort of fair play basis; politics is brute numbers; unless it is to do with international legal obligation.

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6 hours ago, exile said:

 

The court cases are not decided yet, and my point on that front is that even if they succeed it will be perceived by some as winning on a legal technicality at odds with democracy and won't solve the "17.4m".

I was talking not only about the cases currently before the courts but those such as the original Miller case which found that the government had exceeded its authority in trying to get Brexit passed without reference to parliament, remember they planned to use prerogative powers to railroad it through.  Also they case brought by the devolved governments - which failed - that tried to establish that consent would be required.   These cases were all as a result of the UKG seeking to avoid scrutiny as they knew they would struggle to get agreement on their plans.

Whatever your views on the Uk and its constitution, you can't dismiss it as some legal technicality.  It's the actual fundamental foundation of the whole state and 17.4 million people voting a particular way on a particular binary question doesn't supersede that no matter how much people want it to.  Politicians and more importantly the media would do well to remember that.

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So....on the question of who Boris is going to shaft. He's has moved the Tory party so far right that he can hardly pull the plug on the ERG. And it must be clear by now that he can't bully the Republic of Ireland or get anything useful out of the EU; and he's been cornered so it would be more difficult to get a no deal, legally, Even the Lord Chancellor has been counselling him against breaking the law.  Therefore maybe it's the DUP he's going to shaft, the "blood red lines" in the Irish Sea, and the precious precious Union? 

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The DUP will very shortly be disposable ,utterly. These shits could not give a toss about NI and Scotland is just a resource.

 

Time to get out (though it always was).

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16 minutes ago, mariokempes56 said:

The DUP will very shortly be disposable ,utterly. These shits could not give a toss about NI and Scotland is just a resource.

 

Time to get out (though it always was).

The bigot party will soon be throwing under bojos big red bus good enough for the cunts 

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I see that self described "working class conservative" and former orangeman, Bill Grant, the Tory MP for Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock is standing down at the next election after little over two years in the job.

I'm sure we all agree he'll be knackered and needs a nice long rest :rolleyes:

 

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1 hour ago, ErsatzThistle said:

I see that self described "working class conservative" and former orangeman, Bill Grant, the Tory MP for Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock is standing down at the next election after little over two years in the job.

I'm sure we all agree he'll be knackered and needs a nice long rest :rolleyes:

 

 

59708857-D1CD-45A6-B7AD-6D8D870379D8.jpeg

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November 2018:

Ross Thomson: "I welcomed the recent intervention of the Secretary of State for Scotland, David Mundell*, and the Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson,** in writing a letter to the prime minister [Theresa May*] making it clear that their blood red line is the integrity of the UK."

 * Gone (July  2019) 

** Gone (August 2019)

September 2019:

Boris: mumble. bumble, no surrender, mumble bumble, Irish cows  

EU looks to Northern Ireland-only backstop to break Brexit deadlock

“I’ve heard that Dominic Cummings has said ‘I don’t care if Northern Ireland falls into the f@@king sea’.”

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16 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

I see that self described "working class conservative" and former orangeman, Bill Grant, the Tory MP for Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock is standing down at the next election after little over two years in the job.

I'm sure we all agree he'll be knackered and needs a nice long rest :rolleyes:

 

Daft cunts down there will still vote in another Tory.

Truly is the arsehole of Ayrshire.

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1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Daft cunts down there will still vote in another Tory.

Truly is the arsehole of Ayrshire.

Ahh Squirrelhumper, you should stop allowing your football prejudices to inform your political opinions.

 

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