BBC Documentary about Argentina 1978

[DoonTheSlope]

Archie Gemmill throwing Willie Johnston under the bus? Interesting

[Dogbiscuit]

Saw this on the BBC Sport site. No mention of Scotland. Feeling the love?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44391076

[glasgow jock]

Brought back so many great memories (tried not to have flashback of the horror that was Argentina '78) - Remember like yesterday the farewell bus tour at Hampden (show said 30,000 - I'm sure there was double that there that night), I can still remember me and my pals from School waiting until the Rangers End emptied so that we could collect carrier bags full of ring-pulls off the beer cans that where drank (was for some School / Blue Peter project )

[Orraloon]

On 6/7/2018 at 3:17 PM, wanderer said:

My Mrs who was not even watching it actually turned from her book and gave a wee “awwwww” at the end bit when he introduced his wife.

"My Mrs" my erse. That wis you that went "awwwww" wasn't it?

[exile]

On 7 June 2018 at 3:11 PM, Ally Bongo said:

Some of us experienced something no Scotland fan has afterwards

Yes we were young

But for those 2 years beforehand we really really believed that we were one of if not the best team in the World and that we really were going to win it or reach the semis

Thats what i wouldnt trade

And lets not forget - as i stated earlier there were really good reasons for us to believe that and it wasnt a fantasy unlike today

Magical times

I caught a bit of that - not the whole journey, but the feeling of it being a real prospect.

It must be what some other small(ish) countries must feel like - Portugal, maybe Denmark or Croatia at times, where you feel you have a genuine chance of being a potential contender, not the favourite, but a tempting prospect, that the eyes of the world are on,  weighting up the strengths of the contenders with world class prospects...  

[exile]

On 7 June 2018 at 11:08 AM, aaid said:

Two years of elation for forty years of embarrassment?  I appreciate this isn't a popular opinion but I wish it'd never happened.

I guess it's a bit hypothetical to wonder if you'd rather not have had 78, if it would have spared us years of embarrassment.

The first 2 games were awful/forgettable, but the Netherlands victory is part of our (frankly limited) track record of competitive big game scalps, and part of our psyche, that we could beat any team on our day.  

Maybe what is needed is not eradication of memories of 78, or ideas above our station, or any burden of living up to that expectation; but eradicating the sense of embarrassment at failure (too much fear failure can be too self-limiting). Maybe remembering 78 now and going forward, we can put some ghosts to rest and reconcile ourselves to our position: that we can produce a good or even great team once in a while, and to take our chances while we can. We nearly did in 2007 and can do so again.

[aaid]

5 minutes ago, exile said:

I guess it's a bit hypothetical to wonder if you'd rather not have had 78, if it would have spared us years of embarrassment.

The first 2 games were awful/forgettable, but the Netherlands victory is part of our (frankly limited) track record of competitive big game scalps, and part of our psyche, that we could beat any team on our day.  

Maybe what is needed is not eradication of memories of 78, or ideas above our station, or any burden of living up to that expectation; but eradicating the sense of embarrassment at failure (too much fear failure can be too self-limiting). Maybe remembering 78 now and going forward, we can put some ghosts to rest and reconcile ourselves to our position: that we can produce a good or even great team once in a while, and to take our chances while we can. We nearly did in 2007 and can do so again.

It's more than just embarrassment, I think Argentina has had a negative effect on Scotland that we've still not recovered from.

Successive managers, since Stein have been very careful to dampen down expectations so as to avoid a repeat performance .  Added to that, I think that it's created some form of collective view of glorious failure in the national psyche.   I don't think it's any coincidence that we consistently fuck up in games we should win against the lesser teams.  There's just a shrug of the shoulders and a resigned sigh of "typical Scotland".   I think it lets the players off the hook.   I don't think it's deliberate but I think it's in the subconscious. 

To me McLeod was no better than a snake oil salesman. 

[Ally Bongo]

23 minutes ago, aaid said:

 Added to that, I think that it's created some form of collective view of glorious failure in the national psyche. I dont think it's any coincidence that we consistently fuck up in games we should win against the lesser teams.  There's just a shrug of the I don't think it'shoulders and a resigned sigh of "typical Scotland".   I think it lets the players off the hook.   I don't think it's deliberate but I think it's in the subconscious. 

To me McLeod was no better than a snake oil salesman. 

That was happening long before Argentina 78

Go back 4 years before and look at the game against Zaire which ultimately cost us progressing

Then go back to the halcyon days of the 60s when we had Law, Baxter, Lennox et al and we still achieved the sum total of feck all even when Scottish clubs were regularly getting to the later states of European championships

Even when we went to the World cup in 58 it was another monumental clusterfuck by the SFA

Edited June 8, 2018 by Ally Bongo

[aaid]

1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said:

That was happening long before Argentina 78

Go back 4 years before and look at the game against Zaire which ultimately cost us progressing

Then go back to the halcyon days of the 60s when we had Law, Baxter, Lennox et al and we still achieved the sum total of feck all

Even when we went to the World cup in 58 it was another monumental clusterfuck by the SFA

I'm old enough to remember 74 and 78.  From what I recall the general view at the time in 74 was that we were unlucky not to qualify out of the group.   I can't comment on the 60s or before.  

[exile]

29 minutes ago, aaid said:

It's more than just embarrassment, I think Argentina has had a negative effect on Scotland that we've still not recovered from.

Successive managers, since Stein have been very careful to dampen down expectations so as to avoid a repeat performance .  Added to that, I think that it's created some form of collective view of glorious failure in the national psyche.   I don't think it's any coincidence that we consistently fuck up in games we should win against the lesser teams.  There's just a shrug of the shoulders and a resigned sigh of "typical Scotland".   I think it lets the players off the hook.   I don't think it's deliberate but I think it's in the subconscious. 

To me McLeod was no better than a snake oil salesman. 

Hmm. I sort of see what you mean. Although, aren't being over-cautious and celebrating (or tolerating) glorious failure not quite different things?

What i find interesting about the current discussion is that by revisiting 78 it's maybe seen as less embarrassing, less of a "glorious failure" after all (not qualifying from the group stage, when we never qualify from the group stage, can be seen as par for the course, and not so glorious and not such a failure)

That's why I'm saying we can lay some ghosts to rest and move on and as you say, put the cautious approach away and also the glorious failure mentality. 

To go deeper we'd need to delve into national identity - the gallant romantic but doomed  tartan footsoldier and more - and how we see ourselves relative to how others see us - but maybe that's for another day 

[exile]

As a footnote there is a rather different take to be had on the first game in 98. Can anyone remember, were we set up more adventurously than usual in that game? If so, why?  

Edited June 8, 2018 by exile

[Toepoke]

32 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Even when we went to the World cup in 58 it was another monumental clusterfuck by the SFA

I think that'll be 1954. Scotland announced a squad of 22, then only took 13 players to the finals so that the SFA blazers' wives could fit on the plane. 

They thought because Switzerland has mountains it would be cold so only took heavy winter long sleeved jerseys. Of course it was absolutely sweltering.

Andy Beattie resigned as manager during the tournament due to the shambles, then Uruguay proceded to beat us 7 nil.

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Toepoke

[Ally Bongo]

32 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

I think that'll be 1954. Scotland announced a squad of 22, then only took 13 players to the finals so that the SFA blazers' wives could fit on the plane. 

They thought because Switzerland has mountains it would be cold so only took heavy winter long sleeved jerseys. Of course it was absolutely sweltering.

Andy Beattie resigned as manager during the tournament due to the shambles, then Uruguay proceded to beat us 7 nil.

 

Yep my bad

1958 was bad too - Paraguay were reported to be rough and fit so Dawson Walker proceeded to leave out some of his most combatative players and we got humped

Typically we then needed to beat France and did our usual losing 2-1

Wales and Northern Ireland got further than us !

[Ally Bongo]

50 minutes ago, exile said:

As a footnote there is a rather different take to be had on the first game in 98. Can anyone remember, were we set up more adventurously than usual in that game? If so, why?  

More to do with the threadbare squad we had rather than Craig Brown going gung ho

Despite us starting with 3 forwards (Gallacher Durie and Jackson) we mostly played 4-5-1 from what i can recall 

 

 

 

[Toepoke]

21 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

1958 was bad too - Paraguay were reported to be rough and fit so Dawson Walker proceeded to leave out some of his most combatative players and we got humped

Typically we then needed to beat France and did our usual losing 2-1

Wales and Northern Ireland got further than us !

Unfortunate timing with that one. A couple of months after the Munich air crash meaning Matt Busby couldn't manage us, and a couple of months before Denis Law's debut.

 

17 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

More to do with the threadbare squad we had rather than Craig Brown going gung ho

Despite us starting with 3 forwards (Gallacher Durie and Jackson) we mostly played 4-5-1 from what i can recall 

We really missed Gary McAllister in France. 

McCoist should've been picked too. Brown has since admitted he made an error there. Pity we didn't uncover Don Hutchison a couple of years earlier.

[Eisegerwind]

Ally MacLeod,head in hands,an enduring image.

[ceudmilefailte]

2 hours ago, Toepoke said:

I think that'll be 1954. Scotland announced a squad of 22, then only took 13 players to the finals so that the SFA blazers' wives could fit on the plane. 

They thought because Switzerland has mountains it would be cold so only took heavy winter long sleeved jerseys. Of course it was absolutely sweltering.

Andy Beattie resigned as manager during the tournament due to the shambles, then Uruguay proceded to beat us 7 nil.

 

You made that up surely

[Ally Bongo]

9 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

You made that up surely

Sadly not - the only defence i can muster is that it was the first time we had been at a World Cup and we know the SFA are amateurs

In addition to my earlier post Scotland then had an 16 year hiatus from WC finals between 1958 and 1974

All through the 60s with all those great players and Scotland's clubs dominating Europe 

Argentina 78 was definitely not the casting spell

[Marky]

On 6/7/2018 at 4:49 PM, joecraigfanclub said:

Not if you read Archie McPherson's book. The hotel in Mexico in 86 for the games in Neza was like a prison according to the players interviewed. They claimed it was all they could get as we were last to qualify

 

Sotogrande in 82 was top end but a two hour drive from the ground in Malaga

 

The place in Rapallo for Italia 90 was the dogs bollocks apparently 

Laughed when I saw your coupon appear on the screen Kevin. 🤣

Just watched it. I almost didn’t because as others have said I thought I’d seen it all a hundred times before. 

But that actually left me mildly teary. Felt really sorry for Willie Johnston. You could tell it still upsets him even now. It was a pretty poignant programme. 

Also thought the Shankly comment was interesting. That if that Scotland squad had played in the English 1st Division it would have been over by Xmas. And he wasn’t wrong.

I was 12 during that World Cup and I remember it like it was yesterday. But being 12 all you were aware of was the hurt and disappointment of losing football matches. It’s ibteresting to see all the wider implications. 

Some fantastic fan stories too. Didnae see Jim Todd’s Teddy Bear in Argentina tho. Did he have it then?

Edited June 8, 2018 by Marky

[Orraloon]

Argentina wasn't much different to all our other WCs in terms of results.

The main difference is that we had the belief in ourselves that maybe this time we could do something special. A lot of that belief was instilled by Ally McCloud. That is what he was good at. Making players believe in themselves and their own ability. He was one of those guys who could boost a player's confidence, in the same way that Clough did. if you look at the top level of any sport you usually find that the folk who win things have supreme confidence. You can have all the ability in the world but you won't win things unless you have that confidence that you are better than the guys you are playing against.

 I would love to have some of that confidence and belief back in the Scotland squad right now, but I can't see where it is going come from.

Ally McCloud made mistakes. All managers make mistakes. He may not have been one of the great managers of all time, but he helped to give, some of us, our most enjoyable times following Scotland. I don't think those times of a wonderful sense of optimism will ever be repeated.

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

Argentina wasn't much different to all our other WCs in terms of results.

The main difference is that we had the belief in ourselves that maybe this time we could do something special. A lot of that belief was instilled by Ally McCloud. That is what he was good at. Making players believe in themselves and their own ability. He was one of those guys who could boost a player's confidence, in the same way that Clough did. if you look at the top level of any sport you usually find that the folk who win things have supreme confidence. You can have all the ability in the world but you won't win things unless you have that confidence that you are better than the guys you are playing against.

 I would love to have some of that confidence and belief back in the Scotland squad right now, but I can't see where it is going come from.

Ally McCloud made mistakes. All managers make mistakes. He may not have been one of the great managers of all time, but he helped to give, some of us, our most enjoyable times following Scotland. I don't think those times of a wonderful sense of optimism will ever be repeated.

The world is full of people whose self-confidence is way way in excess of their abilities and are over-promoted as a result.   Unfortunately they generally don't get found out until its too late.

[Marky]

2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Argentina wasn't much different to all our other WCs in terms of results.

The main difference is that we had the belief in ourselves that maybe this time we could do something special. A lot of that belief was instilled by Ally McCloud. That is what he was good at. Making players believe in themselves and their own ability. He was one of those guys who could boost a player's confidence, in the same way that Clough did. if you look at the top level of any sport you usually find that the folk who win things have supreme confidence. You can have all the ability in the world but you won't win things unless you have that confidence that you are better than the guys you are playing against.

 I would love to have some of that confidence and belief back in the Scotland squad right now, but I can't see where it is going come from.

Ally McCloud made mistakes. All managers make mistakes. He may not have been one of the great managers of all time, but he helped to give, some of us, our most enjoyable times following Scotland. I don't think those times of a wonderful sense of optimism will ever be repeated.

The thing is Orraloon, back then that confidence wasn’t misplaced. That squad were well worthy of it. It wasn’t over confidence that done for us, it was complacency.

On the contrary, that level of confidence would be completely misplaced with the current squad. 

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

The world is full of people whose self-confidence is way way in excess of their abilities and are over-promoted as a result.   Unfortunately they generally don't get found out until its too late.

I think that is harsh and IMO it's a bit of a myth exaggerated by the media who for years tried to hide their fucking outrageous behaviour during Argentina along with the SFA covering up their incompetence

I watched the Only a Game episode of the Team and you can see it clearly from McIlvanny, Sanderson and Ian Archer

MacLeod was right and it was the same with the mangers that preceeded him - their most important role was making sure they picked the right team from the bucket load of great players available

It was a million miles way from what the current Scottish manager has to do

MacLeod was hampered by the injuries to McGrain and McQueen

In hindsight his failing was going to the wall with Rioch and Masson but who in his position would have left them out ?

Everyone had their part to play in the debacle but the biggest culprit wasnt MacLeod

 

 

[aaid]

1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said:

I think that is harsh and IMO it's a bit of a myth exaggerated by the media who for years tried to hide their fucking outrageous behaviour during Argentina along with the SFA covering up their incompetence

I watched the Only a Game episode of the Team and you can see it clearly from McIlvanny, Sanderson and Ian Archer

MacLeod was right and it was the same with the mangers that preceeded him - their most important role was making sure they picked the right team from the bucket load of great players available

It was a million miles way from what the current Scottish manager has to do

MacLeod was hampered by the injuries to McGrain and McQueen

In hindsight his failing was going to the wall with Rioch and Masson but who in his position would have left them out ?

Everyone had their part to play in the debacle but the biggest culprit wasnt MacLeod

 

 

Not bothering to do a minutes scouting on Peru or Iran?

[Marky]

14 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

I think that is harsh and IMO it's a bit of a myth exaggerated by the media who for years tried to hide their fucking outrageous behaviour during Argentina along with the SFA covering up their incompetence

I watched the Only a Game episode of the Team and you can see it clearly from McIlvanny, Sanderson and Ian Archer

MacLeod was right and it was the same with the mangers that preceeded him - their most important role was making sure they picked the right team from the bucket load of great players available

It was a million miles way from what the current Scottish manager has to do

MacLeod was hampered by the injuries to McGrain and McQueen

In hindsight his failing was going to the wall with Rioch and Masson but who in his position would have left them out ?

Everyone had their part to play in the debacle but the biggest culprit wasnt MacLeod

 

 

To say he was hampered by those two losses is an understatement in the extreme. They were massive losses. McGrain was arguably the best full back in the world at the time and Kenny Burns was certainly no McQueen.

12 minutes ago, aaid said:

Not bothering to do a minutes scouting on Peru or Iran?

Indeed. McLeod was guilty of complacency, but he wasn’t the only one. He wasn’t guilty of over confidence. The confidence was very much an asset.