Panama papers

[antidote]

3 hours ago, Pool Q said:

This is the original statement you made. Larky responded with, amongst other things, the OECD figures which shows the UK to be in the middle, certainly nowhere near the most taxed. You have gone on to list a number of taxes we pay, along with links to a couple of fairly unconvincing sites. You are now saying the OECD's site only covers direct taxation (I'll be honest I haven't checked that) but that the level of indirect taxes in the UK is higher than other countries. Most of those you have listed are likely to be applicable in other countries though. We own property and run a car in Spain, tax on that may be a bit lower but overall, I wonder if it would be much lower (if at all). To be fair I've never sat down and done any sort of comparison.

Yes and the next comment says indirect tax also. I'm sure you do know direct and indirect tax is still tax.

[antidote]

2 hours ago, Lamia said:

See Pool Q's post. I was asking you to justify that quote which made no reference to direct or indirect taxation. 

But you jumped in thinking direct tax and I did say several times that you were getting confused between the 2 

As Larky's link said countries including the uk, are moving away, not fully, from direct tax onto indirect tax.

Direct tax and indirect tax is tax.

Things like national insurance, stamp duty, excise duty etc. are just other names and forms of taxation. 

[Pool Q]

45 minutes ago, antidote said:

Yes and the next comment says indirect tax also. I'm sure you do know direct and indirect tax is still tax.

I do, yes. I've looked for any indication that this is a subject on which you have much knowledge on. It is becoming abundantly clear it isn't.

[Stu101]

5 hours ago, thplinth said:

Almost one-third of income tax payers contribute less to the Exchequer than the top 3,000 earners - equivalent to 0.01 per cent of the total (i.e the top 3000 income tax payers in the UK pay more than the bottom 9 million income tax payers.) 

Official figures show that the 300,000 people earning more than £150,000 a year now pay almost 30 per cent of all income tax.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11233686/How-top-3000-earners-pay-more-tax-than-bottom-9-million.html

This is why it is very dangerous to target the rich as the solution to all your tax problems. 

You do have to not only look at the direct and indirect taxes people pay but also all the benefits they extract (financial and in-kind as well). The difference between them is the persons net benefit or cost from paying taxes. According to one analysis those earning 105K are paying in about 30k more than they get out in benefits. 

 

This. And those 300,000 are the most mobile.

[Lamia]

3 hours ago, antidote said:

But you jumped in thinking direct tax 

 

I did not. I have all along being asking you to justify the above statement which you have not done and have now tried to claim you were talking only about indirect taxes which you made no reference to in the quote I was asking you to defend

Edited April 15, 2016 by Lamia

[Orraloon]

It must be about Tony B Liar's turn soon.

[ParisInAKilt]

Getting rid of capitalism sounds like a great idea

[Mindimoo]

9 hours ago, Orraloon said:

It must be about Tony B Liar's turn soon.

The Times front page today!

[ThistleWhistle]

There is a limitation in the Telegraph Article in that it'll only include income hmrc is aware of surely?  Maybe idealistic but if the top 1% own/earn the same as the lowest 55% then their contributions should be similar.  I don't share the view we should be thankful to the 10% that their moral compass has graced us with a third of our tax return and they haven't jetted off to an even more loopholed climate.

 

[antidote]

17 hours ago, Pool Q said:

I do, yes. I've looked for any indication that this is a subject on which you have much knowledge on. It is becoming abundantly clear it isn't.

Jesus! It is pretty obvious that you can't tell what the difference between direct tax and indirect tax-the both of them are tax.

[antidote]

14 hours ago, Lamia said:

I did not. I have all along being asking you to justify the above statement which you have not done and have now tried to claim you were talking only about indirect taxes which you made no reference to in the quote I was asking you to defend

 

Just 1 of my previous posts:

" Have done so you've obviously not opened your eyes. Try googling and remember indirect taxation' too. "

 

Kinda shot yourself in the foot there did you not.

[antidote]

TA , there is some quirky things going on with your site. See my last comment, it seems to only happen when replying/quoting Lamia's post.

[antidote]

14 hours ago, Lamia said:

I did not. I have all along being asking you to justify the above statement which you have not done and have now tried to claim you were talking only about indirect taxes which you made no reference to in the quote I was asking you to defend

Here is one of my previous posts:

"Have done so you've obviously not opened your eyes. Try googling and remember 'indirect taxation' too."

 

Kinda shot yourself in the foot there did you not.

[Scunnered]

3 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Getting rid of capitalism sounds like a great idea

It really, really does

[euan2020]

1 hour ago, ThistleWhistle said:

There is a limitation in the Telegraph Article in that it'll only include income hmrc is aware of surely?  Maybe idealistic but if the top 1% own/earn the same as the lowest 55% then their contributions should be similar.  I don't share the view we should be thankful to the 10% that their moral compass has graced us with a third of our tax return and they haven't jetted off to an even more loopholed climate.

 

unlikely - if they have a a matching income - each of the 55% will have their GBP 10K tax free allowance - whilst the tax free element will be negligible on the 1% incomes

Additionally - the top 1% will also be paying at higher tax rate 

saying that - lot easier for them to use tax efficient vehicles - 

[euan2020]

play around with this  good site

https://listentotaxman.com/150000?

5 guys on GBP 30K a year (UK average wage) pay GBP 19K a year combined tax

1 guy on GBP 150K pays GBP 53,600 tax

 

[Pool Q]

1 hour ago, antidote said:

Jesus! It is pretty obvious that you can't tell what the difference between direct tax and indirect tax-the both of them are tax.

You're a curious creature. In reality, after it being shown your initial claim was nonsense, you tried to muddy the waters by saying indirect tax rates in the UK were higher. When the that was shown not to be the case either - with real tax rates in the UK being roughly in the middle for developed countries - you then developed your 'analysis' by listing various taxes as and when you could think of them, and backing up your claims with links to, amongst others, the Daily Mail. Most indirect taxes in the UK will have equivalents in other countries (VAT rates are set at an EU level for example, and I don't think I've ever been anywhere there wasn't a sales tax). 

To take two specific examples. I checked on the costs in Spain we paid in relation to a couple of taxes you listed earlier in the thread. The Spanish equivalent of Stamp Duty is a Transfer Tax, and is charged on the value of the property at a rate of 7%, higher (usually much higher) than Stamp Duty for any UK property, certainly for those of less than £925k. There is also a 3% Income Tax payable on the purchase by non-residents, but that can reasonably be forgotten about for comparative purposes. Either way, the cost is higher in Spain. Conversely, it should be said, road tax (IVMT) is probably about half to three-quarters what it is in the UK, depending on the model of the car.

You made a claim which was incorrect. Unsurprisingly, you have since been unable to show any credible evidence to substantiate your claim because it is wrong. Rather than quit when you weren't ahead you have kept on going, and are now relying on stuff like pretending that those disputing your claim 'don't understand' the difference between direct and indirect tax. 

[TDYER63]

13 minutes ago, euan2020 said:

play around with this  good site

https://listentotaxman.com/150000?

5 guys on GBP 30K a year (UK average wage) pay GBP 19K a year combined tax

1 guy on GBP 150K pays GBP 53,600 tax

 

I think i would still prefer to be the guy left with £ 96,400 to play with than one of the  5 guys with  £ 26,200. 

[euan2020]

20 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I think i would still prefer to be the guy left with £ 96,400 to play with than one of the  5 guys with  £ 26,200. 

sure - discussion is about tax contribution though, not about disposable income 

In above scenario any person with bit of foresight would save up to GBP 40/ 50K into their pension, so not pay the tax 

 

[TDYER63]

30 minutes ago, euan2020 said:

sure - discussion is about tax contribution though, not about disposable income 

In above scenario any person with bit of foresight would save up to GBP 40/ 50K into their pension, so not pay the tax 

 

I realise this however i do not have enough knowledge on tax to make a worthwhile contribution on the rights and wrongs of taxing high earners. What I can see though, as demonstrated in your example about pension contributions, is that the whole set up relies on a moral compass. Call me naive but unfortunatley I feel that too many people have lost their compass. If I were fortunate enough to earn £150k i hope I would pay my way rather than squirrel more away for the future. But as you say, that is an entirely diffferent discussion.

[antidote]

2 hours ago, Pool Q said:

You're a curious creature. In reality, after it being shown your initial claim was nonsense, you tried to muddy the waters by saying indirect tax rates in the UK were higher. When the that was shown not to be the case either - with real tax rates in the UK being roughly in the middle for developed countries - you then developed your 'analysis' by listing various taxes as and when you could think of them, and backing up your claims with links to, amongst others, the Daily Mail. Most indirect taxes in the UK will have equivalents in other countries (VAT rates are set at an EU level for example, and I don't think I've ever been anywhere there wasn't a sales tax). 

To take two specific examples. I checked on the costs in Spain we paid in relation to a couple of taxes you listed earlier in the thread. The Spanish equivalent of Stamp Duty is a Transfer Tax, and is charged on the value of the property at a rate of 7%, higher (usually much higher) than Stamp Duty for any UK property, certainly for those of less than £925k. There is also a 3% Income Tax payable on the purchase by non-residents, but that can reasonably be forgotten about for comparative purposes. Either way, the cost is higher in Spain. Conversely, it should be said, road tax (IVMT) is probably about half to three-quarters what it is in the UK, depending on the model of the car.

You made a claim which was incorrect. Unsurprisingly, you have since been unable to show any credible evidence to substantiate your claim because it is wrong. Rather than quit when you weren't ahead you have kept on going, and are now relying on stuff like pretending that those disputing your claim 'don't understand' the difference between direct and indirect tax. 

I never once tried to muddy the waters by saying indirect taxes are higher.

Which part of tax are you struggling with? direct tax and indirect tax are still taxes.

The middle position for the UK is a result of direct taxes and I have not seen any evidence, as yet, to suggest indirect taxes are included.

You provide links to where the uk government pays the highest tax burden, which includes direct and indirect taxes, then. No government will supply that information.

The Spanish recently upped their tax for property to 7% during the market crash if my memory serves me right.

 

I made a claim and I stand by that claim that the UK has the highest tax burden on its citizens than any other modernised country.

Remember tax includes direct and indirect taxes, they are both taxes.

I'm not pretending, I'm serious. I have only been quoted direct taxation burdens. 

Maybe the DM got it information from here where it clearly shows that Spanish property tax is nearly half that of the UK which is the highest in the oecd world.

https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-on-property.htm

Kind of flattens your argument doesn't it. You see you forgot to put in the hidden taxes, indirect taxes, like CT, which I assume, is how they arrive at the total. 

It is you who should quit.

You mentioned road tax being more expensive in the UK and it looks as though the UK outstrips all the other countries when it comes to diesel too. On gasoline the uk is just squeaked by the Netherlands. Tobacco, the uk top again.

Check: 'selected excise duties' tables:  Taxation of automotive diesel per litre ,  Taxation of automotive diesel per litre  &  Taxation of Tobacco 

 

I think we can safely assume that the UK is at the top tax burden country so far when it comes comes to property and excise duty.

No doubt the rest of the evidence will crop up somewhere.

Edited April 16, 2016 by antidote

[Lamia]

8 hours ago, antidote said:

Here is one of my previous posts:

"Have done so you've obviously not opened your eyes. Try googling and remember 'indirect taxation' too."

 

Kinda shot yourself in the foot there did you not.

How? 

 

[Lamia]

4 hours ago, antidote said:

I made a claim and I stand by that claim that the UK has the highest tax burden on its citizens than any other modernised country.

Remember tax includes direct and indirect taxes, they are both taxes.

 

I am well aware that taxes are both direct and indirect. I originally asked you for a country by country analyse to show that all taxes in the UK meant we had the highest total tax burden. Just a table of countries and their comparative tax total burdens that is all you need to provide. Given you claim you have evidence to prove your assertion this should be a simple enough job. I even gave you the easier task of asking for the UK and Sweden only and you still haven't even managed that.

The bottom line is you have made a claim you are unable to back up and anyone reading this thread can see this quite clearly.

[Larky Masher]

23 hours ago, antidote said:

I never once tried to muddy the waters by saying indirect taxes are higher.

Which part of tax are you struggling with? direct tax and indirect tax are still taxes.

The middle position for the UK is a result of direct taxes and I have not seen any evidence, as yet, to suggest indirect taxes are included.

You provide links to where the uk government pays the highest tax burden, which includes direct and indirect taxes, then. No government will supply that information.

The Spanish recently upped their tax for property to 7% during the market crash if my memory serves me right.

 

I made a claim and I stand by that claim that the UK has the highest tax burden on its citizens than any other modernised country.

Remember tax includes direct and indirect taxes, they are both taxes.

I'm not pretending, I'm serious. I have only been quoted direct taxation burdens. 

Maybe the DM got it information from here where it clearly shows that Spanish property tax is nearly half that of the UK which is the highest in the oecd world.

https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-on-property.htm

Kind of flattens your argument doesn't it. You see you forgot to put in the hidden taxes, indirect taxes, like CT, which I assume, is how they arrive at the total. 

It is you who should quit.

You mentioned road tax being more expensive in the UK and it looks as though the UK outstrips all the other countries when it comes to diesel too. On gasoline the uk is just squeaked by the Netherlands. Tobacco, the uk top again.

Check: 'selected excise duties' tables:  Taxation of automotive diesel per litre ,  Taxation of automotive diesel per litre  &  Taxation of Tobacco 

 

I think we can safely assume that the UK is at the top tax burden country so far when it comes comes to property and excise duty.

No doubt the rest of the evidence will crop up somewhere.

If you look at every other tab on that page, e.g. taxes of personal income (direct tax), social security, goods and services (indirect taxes), the UK is nowhere near the top.

[antidote]

4 hours ago, Larky Masher said:

If you look at every other tab on that page, e.g. taxes of personal income (direct tax), social security, goods and services (indirect taxes), the UK is nowhere near the top.

Ehm...they are mid table on direct taxation and top of the table in property taxes. As for taxes on social security, well maybe if they paid the same social security as many other countries then they would take more tax.

Goods? You mean VAT? Seems that VAT is also included along with other taxes in excise duty by all accounts.