Panama papers

[hampden_loon2878]

3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I think you may have misinterpreted my post. I was actually ridiculing the statement they are making . The Tories are constantly greetin about the work shy and 'something for nothing  ' brigade. I was highlighting that it was just as easy to twist their statement about tax to excuse the people THEY accuse. I may not have made that clear.  My personal feeling towards the unemployed could not be further from that.

rich or poor people will take advantage of the system to benifit themselves,, tax avoidance is just a rich mans benefit fraud 

[Orraloon]

44 minutes ago, antidote said:

I'm all for people using tax avoidance/arrangement schemes, I'm just opposed to people who we pay the wages of and who preach that we shouldn't tax evade etc.

On inheritance tax, if you have earned it while you're living and it has been taxed at source, I don't see why tax should have to be paid again.

Dead men don't pay taxes. It's the folk who inherit the money who pay tax on it. The beneficiaries haven't paid tax on it before. It's unearned income and IMO it should be taxed at a higher rate than earned income.

[aaid]

38 minutes ago, Lamia said:

That is exactly what is happening....

You think? Personally I reckon it's all designed to take the heat off the Archbishop of Canterbury. 

[aaid]

18 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Dead men don't pay taxes. It's the folk who inherit the money who pay tax on it. The beneficiaries haven't paid tax on it before. It's unearned income and IMO it should be taxed at a higher rate than earned income.

It's the estate that is due inheritance tax, a moot point as it will have an impact on reducing the size of the inheritance. 

[Orraloon]

9 minutes ago, aaid said:

You think? Personally I reckon it's all designed to take the heat off the Archbishop of Canterbury. 

Looks like it's working. What's he been up to?

[Lamia]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

Looks like it's working. What's he been up to?

 Not him, his mother. Its shocking and life will never be the same for any of us now!

[aaid]

12 minutes ago, Lamia said:

 Not him, his mother. Its shocking and life will never be the same for any of us now!

So you were so not interested, you read the article anyway.

[phart]

How are you meant to judge the worth of something without finding out what it says?

[thplinth]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

Dead men don't pay taxes. It's the folk who inherit the money who pay tax on it. The beneficiaries haven't paid tax on it before. It's unearned income and IMO it should be taxed at a higher rate than earned income.

So will you be campaigning for the IHT threshold to be lowered to zero based on your lofty principles above?  

Or is just another let's target folk with money coz I am bitter about them having it?

Imagine saving all your life to pass on a wedge to your kids... what a khunt. 

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by thplinth

[antidote]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

Dead men don't pay taxes. It's the folk who inherit the money who pay tax on it. The beneficiaries haven't paid tax on it before. It's unearned income and IMO it should be taxed at a higher rate than earned income.

 

If I had worked all my life built up a sizeable amount of savings on the money left after tax, then why should the money left to my family be taxed again.

[Return of Yermaw]

1 hour ago, antidote said:

 

If I had worked all my life built up a sizeable amount of savings on the money left after tax, then why should the money left to my family be taxed again.

Presumably the argument is along the lines that the Govt have provided the economic conditions for you to work, save that money and make interest on that money and hence they should be "rewarded". Similar to their Capital Gains Tax argument. I know it is tosh but the majority of ways we are taxed beyond standard income tax is all tosh imo.

[Mark frae Crieff]

3 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

rich or poor people will take advantage of the system to benifit themselves,, tax avoidance is just a rich mans benefit fraud 

the only difference is you can do time with benefit fraud and still have to pay back what is owed.. 

[hunchy]

7 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I think you may have misinterpreted my post. I was actually ridiculing the statement they are making . The Tories are constantly greetin about the work shy and 'something for nothing  ' brigade. I was highlighting that it was just as easy to twist their statement about tax to excuse the people THEY accuse. I may not have made that clear.  My personal feeling towards the unemployed could not be further from that.

Plus his talk about people claiming benefits including disability even though he claimed it as well for his son

[euan2020]

4 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

rich or poor people will take advantage of the system to benifit themselves,, tax avoidance is just a rich mans benefit fraud 

its not - evasion is but avoidance isn't

otherwise you would be saying everyone who pays in to Pension, ISA or tax efficient vehicles is committing fraud & you dontt have to be rish to pay into a pension - just employed

now finding loopholes like taking non repayable loans etc is different story

lot of self employed are as bad shoving expenses through their business which has nothing to do with the business likes wife's car fuel etc etc o

 

 

 

[Orraloon]

3 hours ago, antidote said:

 

If I had worked all my life built up a sizeable amount of savings on the money left after tax, then why should the money left to my family be taxed again.

Most money is taxed more than once. You're taxed when you earn it and taxed again when you spend it.

[antidote]

34 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Most money is taxed more than once. You're taxed when you earn it and taxed again when you spend it.

That's pretty obvious and I don't blame people who have already had their money taxed finding ways of not paying more tax on it.

No wonder we have the highest tax burden of any of the modernised countries in the world.

 

[Kirk]

7 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Dead men don't pay taxes. It's the folk who inherit the money who pay tax on it. The beneficiaries haven't paid tax on it before. It's unearned income and IMO it should be taxed at a higher rate than earned income.

It shouldnt be though. The tax has been paid when the person who leaves it earned it. If I have earned and paid tax then its my money to do what i want with it.

6 hours ago, antidote said:

 

If I had worked all my life built up a sizeable amount of savings on the money left after tax, then why should the money left to my family be taxed again.

Should have just said this haha. Totally agree

[Lamia]

13 hours ago, aaid said:

So you were so not interested, you read the article anyway.

It was the top story so I naively assumed there would be something of importance somewhere in the article.

[Bristolhibby]

Brilliant PR job by Daves machine.

We started out outraged at dodgy Panamanian money squirrelling and tax dodging.

We've now been turned to talking about inheritance tax (which doesn't affect 96% of us).

What mugs we are! 

Keep focus people, tax avoidance, not inheritance tax.

J

[Lamia]

17 hours ago, antidote said:

 

If I had worked all my life built up a sizeable amount of savings on the money left after tax, then why should the money left to my family be taxed again.

You do realise you would just have to pay more income tax or maybe VAT to make up the difference?

[Orraloon]

2 hours ago, Bristolhibby said:

Brilliant PR job by Daves machine.

We started out outraged at dodgy Panamanian money squirrelling and tax dodging.

We've now been turned to talking about inheritance tax (which doesn't affect 96% of us).

What mugs we are! 

Keep focus people, tax avoidance, not inheritance tax.

J

Good point but he is also avoiding paying inheritance tax.

 

[Pool Q]

21 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Dead men don't pay taxes. It's the folk who inherit the money who pay tax on it. The beneficiaries haven't paid tax on it before. It's unearned income and IMO it should be taxed at a higher rate than earned income.

I agree it should be taxed, less sure about at a higher rate. There has been a concerted campaign going on for a decade or so at least now against IHT by the Right, it has kicked up a gear again over the past few days. This has been discussed on here quite a few times now and the majority usually come down against the tax as being unfair. I've always been in the minority in believing that it is right to tax unearned income (which it is in reality, although technically it is the estate that is being taxed of course) although I also think that the allowance needs to be increased substantially now, as what was designed as a rich man's tax can now impact on people with not particularly high incomes if property is involved, especially in London and the SE of England. As has often been said there is a large voluntary element involved in IHT anyway, most people with real money can pay someone to arrange their finances in such a way that little or no tax is actually paid on considerable amounts of wealth, it's not difficult if you know it's coming and have the time to plan ahead. Again, the issue is with the family that doesn't really have all that much and never anticipated being hit by a 'rich' tax getting caught out. It happened to me and my brother when my father died, although the actual amounts were actually pretty low as the value of the estate wasn't hugely over the threshold. It would also apply to my father-in-law's estate as well, but as a retired accountant/management consultant he has that well and truly taken care of I suspect.

On the avoidance/evasion thing it is a fair point that we pretty much all indulge in tax avoidance of some sort, even if it is just using up the ISA allowance or the like. But there is, and always has been, a grey are in the middle and there is a widespread feeling that much of the offshore/tax haven stuff is in that grey area (what Osborne not long ago referred to as 'aggressive tax avoidance'). I think it is fair that elected representatives should have to declare any such interests that they have when they take office. I'm not really comfortable, if I'm honest, with Cameron being pilloried for something his father did, particularly as it appears that what his father did was entirely legal.

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Good point but he is also avoiding paying inheritance tax.

 

See this.   This is exactly what real tax cheats want people to concentrate on.   Not every act that results in you paying less tax is tax avoidance.

Things like ISAs, Pension tax relief, Mortgage interest tax relief even the Married Persons allowance are all perfectly acceptable and anyone who takes advantage of these has *done nothing wrong*.

The reason behind this is that the government of the day has decided that they want to encourage certain behaviours and so give incentives to encourage people to do exactly that.  Hence, ISAs are designed to promote savings, Pension Tax relief is designed to encourage people to save in Pensions.  The 7 year rule on Inheritance Tax is designed to stop capital being tied up in property, bank accounts etc., and to inject that into the economy.

None of these things are Tax Avoidance, they are working in exactly the way the government designed them to do.   If you don't like the policies or the government, that's a completely different matter but no-one is acting in any way that is against the law.

Real Tax Avoidance - and what people should be getting angry about - is where people are using loopholes and bending and twisting the law in ways it was not designed to be applied.    They are often described by apologists as lawful, I prefer the term not illegal, they are certainly immoral.

[jailender]

Of course everybody that does "homers" is guilty of tax evasion, it's just on a slightly smaller scale.

[Orraloon]

8 minutes ago, aaid said:

See this.   This is exactly what real tax cheats want people to concentrate on.   Not every act that results in you paying less tax is tax avoidance.

Things like ISAs, Pension tax relief, Mortgage interest tax relief even the Married Persons allowance are all perfectly acceptable and anyone who takes advantage of these has *done nothing wrong*.

The reason behind this is that the government of the day has decided that they want to encourage certain behaviours and so give incentives to encourage people to do exactly that.  Hence, ISAs are designed to promote savings, Pension Tax relief is designed to encourage people to save in Pensions.  The 7 year rule on Inheritance Tax is designed to stop capital being tied up in property, bank accounts etc., and to inject that into the economy.

None of these things are Tax Avoidance, they are working in exactly the way the government designed them to do.   If you don't like the policies or the government, that's a completely different matter but no-one is acting in any way that is against the law.

Real Tax Avoidance - and what people should be getting angry about - is where people are using loopholes and bending and twisting the law in ways it was not designed to be applied.    They are often described by apologists as lawful, I prefer the term not illegal, they are certainly immoral.

I don't think I said there was anything wrong with it? I just said he was doing it.