Making A Murderer

[Boynze]

I can't help but think that everyone on the police / prosecution side came across as loathsome characters.

And surely two keys bits for pros case was a murder weapon and motive, and they had neither.

[Boynze]

And as mentioned above, there were no other suspects at anytime, ex boyfriend, family member, room mate, other Averys or anyone else. The whole thing stinks.

[MacWalka]

I can't help but think that everyone on the police / prosecution side came across as loathsome characters.

And surely two keys bits for pros case was a murder weapon and motive, and they had neither.

Several of the pieces of evidence not shown in the documentary were that Avery appeared to be obsessed with the victim. Evidence included that he phoned Auto Trader a lot to make sure when there were cars for sale, it was Teresa he asked for. He phoned her phone a few times using caller ID block on the day she went missing. They also found his fingerprints around the Toyota Rav4 bonnet and around the engine though not inside the vehicle. I'm certainly not saying he did it, but I am open to it and can see the omissions and deficiencies in the Making A Murderer documentary.

[Dalgety Bay TA]

I can't help but think that everyone on the police / prosecution side came across as loathsome characters.

And surely two keys bits for pros case was a murder weapon and motive, and they had neither.

Read a couple of links posted. They seem to mention his gun was matched to the bullets with her DNA on them. There was just no mention of this in the documentary but it doesn't mean it isn't the case.

[kps022000]

As fantastic and gripping the 10 hours of TV are, any presumption of guilt or innocence is flawed as it was never investigated thoroughly. For that very reason, Steven Avery should not be in jail.

Out of all the supposed evidence left out of the TV show, it was also argued down by the defence in the same manner as the evidence shown. I think that they wanted you to feel sympathy for Steven Avery which you would not do if he was a bit creepier than simple minded. The two Auto Trader employees who testified said that she knew where she was going and who she was meeting, she was certainly not duped into going there.

I also thought that it was DNA found on the car bonnet latch, not a finger print. One of the officers admitted to not changing his gloves when searching the Toyota.

The bullet being found in garage with the DNA (another ballsed up test) to prove that this is where the murder took place seems so far fetched as Steven Avery would then needs to forensically remove all DNA traces from the scene, the same guy who tried to hide the Toyota with a few tree branches.

However, the biggest injustice has to be Brendon. Everything about that confession, representation and court case was hard to watch. On the advice of someone earlier in the thread I watched the full videos of the confession and read the 21 page transcript with the investigator and still believe he had no clue what he was saying and the implications. The bit about confessing to helping to commit murder then wanting to go home and watch the wrestling was a low point, as was him and his mum trying to understand what inconsistent meant. However, he also cleaned up his DNA from the bedroom.

In summary of my rant, it is impossible to know what happened and hopefully a full investigation of all potential suspects will take place to indenting what happened, starting with Scott Tadych in my opinion.

[Boynze]

Several of the pieces of evidence not shown in the documentary were that Avery appeared to be obsessed with the victim. Evidence included that he phoned Auto Trader a lot to make sure when there were cars for sale, it was Teresa he asked for. He phoned her phone a few times using caller ID block on the day she went missing. They also found his fingerprints around the Toyota Rav4 bonnet and around the engine though not inside the vehicle. I'm certainly not saying he did it, but I am open to it and can see the omissions and deficiencies in the Making A Murderer documentary.

Fair enough, but thats not a motive.

[MacWalka]

Fair enough, but thats not a motive.

IF and it is still a big IF, you are infatuated/obsessed about someone and they spurn your advances, then that MAY be a motive.

Like I've said several times so far, I have no idea what happened that day. I have no idea if Avery if innocent or guilty. From what I have seen in the Netflix documentary, it appears that Avery did have evidence planted against him though.

The series did paint several people in a bad light such as the investigators, prosecutors and the victims friends/family. They also skipped over some parts or missed entirely others that paint Avery in a bad light. That's an editorial decision that should be sat at the back of your mind when analysing what's presented.

Edit to Add: The biggest villains to me are the media surrounding the case who destroyed any potential for there to be a fair trial though. The reporting around that was shocking and the prosecutors certainly used the media to sway public opinion prior to the trial starting.

Edited January 11, 2016 by MacWalka

[sbcmfc]

However, the biggest injustice has to be Brendon. Everything about that confession, representation and court case was hard to watch. On the advice of someone earlier in the thread I watched the full videos of the confession and read the 21 page transcript with the investigator and still believe he had no clue what he was saying and the implications. The bit about confessing to helping to commit murder then wanting to go home and watch the wrestling was a low point, as was him and his mum trying to understand what inconsistent meant. However, he also cleaned up his DNA from the bedroom.

Yeah, agree with that.

He confessed to murder, rape and false improsonmemt, then asked when he'd get back to school, as he had homework due in that afternoon.

That, and the wrestle-mania conversation really showed the lack of understanding the boy had of what was going on.

The techniques the police used to interview him would actually be good techniques to discount a witness. They showed he was open to suggestion and would just agree or go along with whatever they wanted to hear.

How he was allowed to be left alone to be manipulated like that is beyond me, unfortunately the mother probably wasn't much smarter or she could've intervened. People like that trust police and lawyers or even if they don't, have an inferiority complex, so they knew she would go along with what they wanted.

As much as the evidence not presented in the documentary doesn't help Steven's case, there really is just no "smoking gun" and far too many pieces of evidence missing!

There's no way they could have removed all traces of blood and other DNA from the bedroom and/or the garage where she was supposedly raped, tortured and murdered.

As someone said, a room that hadn't seen a duster since 1974, yet he'd meticulously removed all traces of the crime from the bed, walls and from the 100s of items of general clutter!

The prosecution seemed to home in on an auto-trader magazine being on his desk in the room. I didn't get that? He'd never denied she'd been. Her giving him a copy and him throwing it on his desk (which was in his room) doesn't seem unreasonable at all.

[MacWalka]

Yeah, agree with that.

He confessed to murder, rape and false improsonmemt, then asked when he'd get back to school, as he had homework due in that afternoon.

That, and the wrestle-mania conversation really showed the lack of understanding the boy had of what was going on.

The techniques the police used to interview him would actually be good techniques to discount a witness. They showed he was open to suggestion and would just agree or go along with whatever they wanted to hear.

How he was allowed to be left alone to be manipulated like that is beyond me, unfortunately the mother probably wasn't much smarter or she could've intervened. People like that trust police and lawyers or even if they don't, have an inferiority complex, so they knew she would go along with what they wanted.

As much as the evidence not presented in the documentary doesn't help Steven's case, there really is just no "smoking gun" and far too many pieces of evidence missing!

There's no way they could have removed all traces of blood and other DNA from the bedroom and/or the garage where she was supposedly raped, tortured and murdered.

As someone said, a room that hadn't seen a duster since 1974, yet he'd meticulously removed all traces of the crime from the bed, walls and from the 100s of items of general clutter!

The prosecution seemed to home in on an auto-trader magazine being on his desk in the room. I didn't get that? He'd never denied she'd been. Her giving him a copy and him throwing it on his desk (which was in his room) doesn't seem unreasonable at all.

That part grated on me as well. There was clearly a reasonable length working relationship between the two of them and she was clearly on the premises (possibly not indoors) on the day. It's not unreasonable that there's a magazine and receipt from her.

[sbcmfc]

That part grated on me as well. There was clearly a reasonable length working relationship between the two of them and she was clearly on the premises (possibly not indoors) on the day. It's not unreasonable that there's a magazine and receipt from her.

If he'd not had those, it would look more suspicious, like he was trying to hide something.

As much as the parts they left out are a bit creepy in the context of the case. They're not that weird. Saw a boy in the barbers the other day let a guy skip him so the young lassie could cut his hair instead of the Turkish bloke. I've occasionally chosen my checkout queue at the supermarket along similar lines myself.

[Boynze]

That part grated on me as well. There was clearly a reasonable length working relationship between the two of them and she was clearly on the premises (possibly not indoors) on the day. It's not unreasonable that there's a magazine and receipt from her.

Exactly.

So they cleaned the garage meticulously, but left behind the key and the magazine in the trailer, and left her in the fire pit, then ' hid ' the car with a few branches and plywood, leaving blood and dna in the car? That clearly does not add up. there were several other obvious lines of enquiry other than Avery that were not followed up, why?

I guess we'll never know what happened.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Boynze

[Hendricks]

My wife and I watched this over Christmas (cheery viewing along with Luther, Beasts of No Nation and Narcos).

This made me laugh at loud. Which was required as I have just finished watching the 10 episodes.

As other have said it was absolutely compulsive viewing. I don't think I've ever been glued to something on TV out with a sporting event like that ever before. Was like an amazing book it was impossible to put down or switch off from. Watching it the emotions were all over the place; from utter astonishment at what happened in the first case, to anger and outrage at the clear mishandling at very best of the 2nd case to my own feeling that at least 2 of the Police were 100% corrupt, to the sadness at how coerced the clearly limited Brendan was, to the disbelief at the guilty verdicts given the massive holes in so much of the 'evidence'. Just an amazing real life story.

[Diamond Scot]

Working in law myself one of the main things that struck me was the process and how different it is in this country. For the prosecution to release vital trial evidence via a press conference is wild. How they think that cant prejudice the case is beyond me. Also the way lawyers cross examine in court is very weak. Obviously we didnt see the entire trial but my take on it is that they asked a question such as was there any dna evidence in the bedroom or garage. Got there answer and moved on. Over here that would be about an hours worth of questioning alone.

[sbcmfc]

I'm not sure how representative of the usual trial process it is? I think that's a big part of the focus of the documentary.

Ie. The desperation to pin this on Avery and the various unusual practices involved in doing this, things like the press conference are not the norm I would presume?

[SMcoolJ]

Several of the pieces of evidence not shown in the documentary were that Avery appeared to be obsessed with the victim. Evidence included that he phoned Auto Trader a lot to make sure when there were cars for sale, it was Teresa he asked for. He phoned her phone a few times using caller ID block on the day she went missing. They also found his fingerprints around the Toyota Rav4 bonnet and around the engine though not inside the vehicle. I'm certainly not saying he did it, but I am open to it and can see the omissions and deficiencies in the Making A Murderer documentary.

I think this did come up, albeit not presented in the documentary with any reference or link to Avery. She had been getting numerous calls from a "pest". Her colleague had offered to get involved but she said she could handle it.

I agree with most of the comments in here already. The prosecution did not come across at all well. Krass was not only a creep, he was terrible. Almost as bad as Len.

The fact that Halbach did not appear to ever leave the salvage yard is a big issue though.

The options as I see it are:

1. Avery killed her - simply shot her and then burned the body. The police knew it was him but couldn't convict due to the lack of evidence so made sh1t up (planted evidence).

2. The murderer is still at large, the police were embarrassed by having no clues or lines of enquiry. This, coupled with the need to get rid of Avery due to their earlier embarrassing conviction while also facing personal liability for the resultant counter claim (insurers had stated they would not cover this due to the false conviction and way in which the initial conviction had been handled, so either the state or those involved would be liable) gives pleanty of motive.

I think the worst thing in all of this is Brendan's conviction. I think this was simply the police trying to enforce the conviction of Avery using Brendan as main witness and pawn. There seemed to be no evidence to link Brendan to the crime or the mutilations etc other than a coerced confession which he later retracted.

ETA - I also picked up on the brother speaking about his sister in the past tense and the need for them to grieve. This was relatively early in the "missing" stage and certainly before she was confirmed as having been murdered. Very strange.

Edited January 14, 2016 by SMcoolJ

[SMcoolJ]

The other fairly significant observation I made while wathcing this, although not particularly relevant to the case or having any real bearing on its outcome, but, in isolation, something that continued to play on me throughout..................Is Delores Avery Yoda incarnate?

[Fairbairn]

The other fairly significant observation I made while wathcing this, although not particularly relevant to the case or having any real bearing on its outcome, but, in isolation, something that continued to play on me throughout..................Is Delores Avery Yoda incarnate?

I thought the same thing at one point!!

[Fairbairn]

I'm hearing of another true crime documentary called The Jinx that's supposed to be quite good. Anyone seen it?

[flynnyboy]

I'm hearing of another true crime documentary called The Jinx that's supposed to be quite good. Anyone seen it?

Brilliant documentary. The ending is just jaw dropping stuff. Similar in style to making a murderer but from a different angle. Throughly recommended.

Edited January 15, 2016 by flynnyboy

[86glebestreet]

Brilliant documentary. The ending is just jaw dropping stuff. Similar in style to making a murderer but from a different angle. Throughly recommended.

Any idea where it can be seen

[flynnyboy]

Any idea where it can be seen

I watched it on sky when it was first on. If you have an android device you can get it no problem at all on kodi, if you don't then type in the jinx episode 1, then 2 etc on Google in a video search and you'll get the full episodes on dailymotion, it's on sky again on 14th April if you have that. If you need a hand gie me a shout via pm mate

[86glebestreet]

I watched it on sky when it was first on. If you have an android device you can get it no problem at all on kodi, if you don't then type in the jinx episode 1, then 2 etc on Google in a video search and you'll get the full episodes on dailymotion, it's on sky again on 14th April if you have that. If you need a hand gie me a shout via pm mate

Thank you

[Auld_Reekie]

Not convinced it was quite as gripping as some of the reviews Ive read, but it's was certainly jaw-dropping at times. If the whole point of a court of law is to prove a crime beyond all reasonable doubt, even allowing for some evidence/testimony that was not included in the series, how those cases made it through a court is terrifying. You hear of cases collapsing because of technicalities and errors made by authorities - you have to ask what it would have taken for these cases to collapse thanks to Manitowoc Sherriff's Department corruption/incompetence/contamination of crime scenes or process.

As others have said, the most shocking parts for me was treatment of Brendon Dassey. How he was interrogated should be a crime in itself and absolutely unforgivable that he would be subjected to that without a lawyer and a juvenile psychologist or equivalent. The set piece press conference by the c*nt of a lawyer too should see him barred for practicing law. The most shocking part of the entire series was that conversation where Dassey admitted to telling officers that he and Avery raped and murdered Halback, and then talking to his Mum about watching Wrestlemania.

Ive yet to read the evidence that wasn't presented but I find it hard that anything could come up that would convince me even remotely, never mind beyond all reasonable doubt, that Avery did it. They're f***ing hicks but the supposed blood bath cleanup would merit inclusion in Breaking Bad or Pulp Fiction.

As for other suspects, there's the Brother and Step-Dad and then a huge gulf between the next likely suspect. The brother actually went on TV and said the police were great, we love the police and all through Avery's trial, was adamant of his guilt. I hope I'm never in that position, but I hope I would be more interested in justice and the correct suspect than confirming my suspicions and prejudices. The Step-Dad could barely hide his glee at getting away with i... I mean, with the guilty verdict. A total creep.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Auld_Reekie

[stocky]

we finished watching it last night.

The lassie was murdered and burnt in the yard. Probably strangled after sex, thats why no blood etc.....

If Steven didnae do it who did..? Her Brother.//Step dad/ cannaae see it..

I have been thinking about it all day and researching and i am coming to the conclusion he did it, although there wasnt enough evidence to prove it, thats why the police planted evidence,

The trial was a joke, Brendan helped as well I think, but he his trial etc was an absolute joke.

The last wee bit in episode 10, when they interview Stephens defence lawyers, the guid guys, I think if they really believed it, they would fight for free to get him out, the fact the didnt has swayed me quite a wee bit.

However I am prepared to be convinced the other way....

A not Proven verdict in Scotland methinx....

,

[Dalgety Bay TA]

The lassie was murdered and burnt in the yard. Probably strangled after sex, thats why no blood etc.....

She was shot in the head, more than once. This was confirmed by the trauma on the fragments of her skull and the bullets found in his garage with her DNA on them. Are you suggesting there was no blood from shooting her in the head?