Making A Murderer

[SMcoolJ]

we finished watching it last night.

The lassie was murdered and burnt in the yard. Probably strangled after sex, thats why no blood etc.....

If Steven didnae do it who did..? Her Brother.//Step dad/ cannaae see it..

I have been thinking about it all day and researching and i am coming to the conclusion he did it, although there wasnt enough evidence to prove it, thats why the police planted evidence,

The trial was a joke, Brendan helped as well I think, but he his trial etc was an absolute joke.

The last wee bit in episode 10, when they interview Stephens defence lawyers, the guid guys, I think if they really believed it, they would fight for free to get him out, the fact the didnt has swayed me quite a wee bit.

However I am prepared to be convinced the other way....

A not Proven verdict in Scotland methinx....

,

She was shot in the head (examination of her skull revealed close range gun shot wounds). There was quite a lot of discussion on this and how the blood could have been cleared away from the garage (yet, they still found traces of deer blood, but not hers, which is way too strange). The gun showed no sign of blood blow back which would occur from a close range shots. This is one of the material parts of the case to bring huge doubt over his conviction......!

[stocky]

She was shot in the head, more than once. This was confirmed by the trauma on the fragments of her skull and the bullets found in his garage with her DNA on them. Are you suggesting there was no blood from shooting her in the head?

naw, the statement saying she was stabbed etc from Brendan. was what i was referring too

no blood in room with bed etc

Shooting in Head can leave a little blood if wrapped in a bag first... phukk, thats a statement i didnt think i would ever posst..

Edited January 19, 2016 by stocky

[sbcmfc]

Shooting in Head can leave a little blood if wrapped in a bag first... phukk, thats a statement i didnt think i would ever posst..

All accounts of the murder sound like a bloodbath! Would they (Steven and possibly Brendan) be on the ball enough to bag her to stop this.

[stocky]

All accounts of the murder sound like a bloodbath! Would they (Steven and possibly Brendan) be on the ball enough to bag her to stop this.

we dont know that.

if it was a bloodbath,

where was all the blood. he didnt have long to clean up..

His mistake was not crushing/destroying the car.

however, semantics.

She was murdered at the car yard. very probably by Steven, if u dont think so then who else and how.

The trail was loaded, and the Police added evidence , so a miss trial should be awarded, however America dont do justice, it does revenge.

[Auld_Reekie]

however, semantics.

She was murdered at the car yard. very probably by Steven, if u dont think so then who else and how.

The absence of another suspect doesn't mean the suspect you have is guilty. The burden of proof is on a prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the suspect on trial is guilty. It's moronic to think that Avery killed Halback and controlled/cleaned the scene of DNA, but was so stupid as to leave her vehicle in his yard and burn the body in his back garden.

[MacWalka]

The absence of another suspect doesn't mean the suspect you have is guilty. The burden of proof is on a prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the suspect on trial is guilty. It's moronic to think that Avery killed Halback and controlled/cleaned the scene of DNA, but was so stupid as to leave her vehicle in his yard and burn the body in his back garden.

Scroedingers murderer. Simultaneously clever enough to clean up the difficult to hide evidence you would expect from this crime but stupid enough to forget to get rid of the body, car and key.

[stocky]

The absence of another suspect doesn't mean the suspect you have is guilty. The burden of proof is on a prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the suspect on trial is guilty. It's moronic to think that Avery killed Halback and controlled/cleaned the scene of DNA, but was so stupid as to leave her vehicle in his yard and burn the body in his back garden.

ok i get that, (no need for the Moronic bit).

I believe that it was not proven beyond reasonable doubt, hence the police placing evidence .

So no trial/jury should have convicted.

That doesnt mean to say he didnt do it.

However She was killed and burnt in the yard. The car was found in the yard.

I think he did it, WELL 80% sure, is that beyond reasonable doubt.. I dont know.

Probably was planning to do car at another time, remember there were 1000's of cars in that yard, and it was hidden a wee bit.

Who else would/could have put that car there without someone saying/seeing anything.

THe main reasoning that switched me was some internet searches( minor) and the fact that Stevens defence laywers in episode ten, I think if they thought they could get him out they would have tried.

They washed his hands of him

Brendan is another issue all together

[sbcmfc]

I don't disagree stocky, there is definitely evidence that doesn't look good for Steven Avery, I'm not as sure (you said 80%), but still have an inclination that he maybe did do it.

I think if it wasn't him and he knew who did do it (eg. brother, brother in law, Brendan...) he'd happily throw them under the bus.

I think everyone is in agreement that based on the available information, it's very difficult to see how he could be convicted though.

Personally I just can't see how there was no evidence of the sexual assault or murder, blood, jizz, pubic hair.....

So if he did do it, he didn't do it how they say.

Another point is that Steven and Brendan were convicted of committing the act together, but the stories (sorry evidence) that they were both convicted on didn't match up at all.

[Auld_Reekie]

Aye, apologies, "moronic" was a bit harsh.

On the defence team, I think it's unreasonable to expect them to work for free or to make any judgement on them or Avery because they refused to do so. I think they are on the record as having doubts about Avery but at very least firmly believe that the case was not strong enough for a safe conviction.

I think there's a reasonable chance Avery is guilty but if there's even reasonable doubt he cannot and should not go to jail. Any police or sherriff department showing such incompetence and criminality should also be held to account when a case is tainted like it was.

[stocky]

I don't disagree stocky, there is definitely evidence that doesn't look good for Steven Avery, I'm not as sure (you said 80%), but still have an inclination that he maybe did do it.

I think if it wasn't him and he knew who did do it (eg. brother, brother in law, Brendan...) he'd happily throw them under the bus.

I think everyone is in agreement that based on the available information, it's very difficult to see how he could be convicted though.

Personally I just can't see how there was no evidence of the sexual assault or murder, blood, jizz, pubic hair.....

So if he did do it, he didn't do it how they say.

Another point is that Steven and Brendan were convicted of committing the act together, but the stories (sorry evidence) that they were both convicted on didn't match up at all.

Aye, hence the story.

Did he do it? Aye

Should he have been convicted on the evidence? No way

The original trial lawyers always said they didnt think the police were just planting evidence for the sake of it, he believed the police Believed he did it and they were planting evidence to prove it.

No way he did it the way they said, I dont think she was ever in the room.

There is no evidence at all of Sexual Assault..

Steven had a History of Sexual harrassment, even before in 1985, he was on a line up because he was known as a deviant.

My wife was wondering what happened to his alcoholic wife, she just disappeared, a google search states she was beaten up, bullied and abused by steven when they were married.Although hardly a reliable witness or source.

This was 2005 in rural America, I am sure standards of DNA collection (aka Silent Witness) were not in use.

There is no way he should have been convicted IMO, although I believe he did it...

Hows that for a conundrum in a Liberal Mind.. Society has to Prove beyond reasonable doubt... they didnt do that....

Edited January 19, 2016 by stocky

[SMcoolJ]

Yeah, I'm kind of where you are on this Stocky. It's seems impossible to put together a scenario that fits with all the evidence. The one thing I thought was certain however is that there wasn't a strong enough case (beyond reasonable doubt) against Avery, and even less so against Dassy!!

[Dalgety Bay TA]

ok i get that, (no need for the Moronic bit).

I believe that it was not proven beyond reasonable doubt, hence the police placing evidence .

So no trial/jury should have convicted.

That doesnt mean to say he didnt do it.

However She was killed and burnt in the yard. The car was found in the yard.

I think he did it, WELL 80% sure, is that beyond reasonable doubt.. I dont know.

Probably was planning to do car at another time, remember there were 1000's of cars in that yard, and it was hidden a wee bit.

Who else would/could have put that car there without someone saying/seeing anything.

THe main reasoning that switched me was some internet searches( minor) and the fact that Stevens defence laywers in episode ten, I think if they thought they could get him out they would have tried.

They washed his hands of him

Brendan is another issue all together

it was acknowledged in the documentary that there was another way into the salvage yard, of a road, which meant you didn't have to go in the main entrance.

Why was Colburn calling in the license plate of the car 2 days before it was found?

[SMcoolJ]

it was acknowledged in the documentary that there was another way into the salvage yard, of a road, which meant you didn't have to go in the main entrance.

Why was Colburn calling in the license plate of the car 2 days before it was found?

I keep forgetting about stuff like this!! It's a total shambles.

[sbcmfc]

Why was Colburn calling in the license plate of the car 2 days before it was found?

That was very fishy!

Could look like he'd found the car at that point, in fact unless he was looking at the car at that point, why would he be checking it?

That would point to the car being planted. (The attempt to hide it was so pathetic, it was surely staged??)

There's also all the stuff with the people who found the car being given a camera etc.

I can maybe see the case that they thought it was him, and convinced halbachs brother and ex they had the right guy, and they made sure they got him by any means....

[Dalgety Bay TA]

That was very fishy!

Could look like he'd found the car at that point, in fact unless he was looking at the car at that point, why would he be checking it?

That would point to the car being planted. (The attempt to hide it was so pathetic, it was surely staged??)

There's also all the stuff with the people who found the car being given a camera etc.

I can maybe see the case that they thought it was him, and convinced halbachs brother and ex they had the right guy, and they made sure they got him by any means....

Not only did he call in the plate but he then confirmed the make/model of it in the next sentence. When questioned in court over why he did this, his response was "I thought that was what the person confirming the plate said to me". Cue them playing the recording of the phone call with him first of saying the number plate and then "Green Rav 4?". FFS!

The auntie finds the car, within the 30-45 minutes of searching for it. In a massive car lot with thousands of cars. Her explanation "I saw a path and thought I would look up there......"

The amount of "coincidences" which came together in this case were ridiculous.

[tartandon]

we dont know that.

if it was a bloodbath,

where was all the blood. he didnt have long to clean up..

His mistake was not crushing/destroying the car.

however, semantics.

She was murdered at the car yard. very probably by Steven, if u dont think so then who else and how.

The trail was loaded, and the Police added evidence , so a miss trial should be awarded, however America dont do justice, it does revenge.

The fact that the dodgy police officer with the glasses phoned in her car plates a couple of days before the car was found makes me think that Avery didn't do it.

I reckon the police found the body and vehicle and then decided to fit up Avery due to the ongoing compensation case for his original miscarriage of justice

[Dalgety Bay TA]

The fact that the dodgy police officer with the glasses phoned in her car plates a couple of days before the car was found makes me think that Avery didn't do it.

I reckon the police found the body and vehicle and then decided to fit up Avery due to the ongoing compensation case for his original miscarriage of justice

I think the ongoing compensation case and the fact that the insurance companies were not accountable for compensation on wrongful convictions (or something along those lines), therefore meaning the county police department themselves were on the hook for potentially millions, had a very large baring on what went on. They admitted early on in the series that a pay out of that level would decimate their budgets.

[stocky]

I think the ongoing compensation case and the fact that the insurance companies were not accountable for compensation on wrongful convictions (or something along those lines), therefore meaning the county police department themselves were on the hook for potentially millions, had a very large baring on what went on. They admitted early on in the series that a pay out of that level would decimate their budgets.

possible, didnt think of that... car put in yard, shabbily, where police can see it, blood placed in car. Bones moved to pit.. so that could work

but who killed her. Surely no the Police?

[sbcmfc]

but who killed her. Surely no the Police?

It does seem a stretch that the set up went to this level! That the police would actually murder and burn a young lassie, but if it was just an opportunist act to set him up, the timing really was fortunate to say the least!

Just when their necks are on the chopping block, a young lassie turns up dead, last seen at Averys house having had a documented meeting with him....

That doesn't really add up either, it seems far too coincidental.

It leaves 3 possibilities I can see.

1. Avery did do it, but probably not how they said he did.

2. Another member of the Avery family did it.

3. The police arranged it all (although maybe didn't actually "do it")

Having seen the way they operate, I can't easily disregard option 3, but in all honesty option 1 seems the most likely.

I suppose there's a 4th possibility, that someone else did it and framed Avery.

Edited January 20, 2016 by sbcmfc

[Auld_Reekie]

I suppose there's a 4th possibility, that someone else did it and framed Avery.

Brendan Dassey's step-dad. Telling ye. That guy could barely contain his delight at Avery going down. Him or Halback's brother.

The car key, Colborn calling it in 2 day's earlier, search party going straight for it. There's more than a whiff...

[Parklife]

Brendan Dassey's step-dad. Telling ye. That guy could barely contain his delight at Avery going down. Him or Halback's brother.

The car key, Colborn calling it in 2 day's earlier, search party going straight for it. There's more than a whiff...

Yup. Tadych and Bobby Dassey looked like the most likely to me. Each giving the other an alibi with their "hunting trip" and both in the vicinity of Theresa hallbach when she was last seen.

[Fairbairn]

Yup. Tadych and Bobby Dassey looked like the most likely to me. Each giving the other an alibi with their "hunting trip" and both in the vicinity of Theresa hallbach when she was last seen.

Not to mention there being a discrepancy of something like 2 hours in the time they both claim to have passed each other on the road. There are 4 people who are basically the last 2 people to see her alive. 2 of them were up on trial while the other 2 were at no point asked to provide DNA samples or have their (joint) property searched.

[sbcmfc]

Brendan Dassey's step-dad. Telling ye. That guy could barely contain his delight at Avery going down. Him or Halback's brother.

The car key, Colborn calling it in 2 day's earlier, search party going straight for it. There's more than a whiff...

So you think one of them did it and the police framed Avery? Do you think the police know they did it or even instructed them to do it?

Or just they did it, but the police were convinced it was Avery so made sure they got him?

Halbachs ex boyfriend and brother were both strange guys that came across as "for the watching".

Must admit the step dad didn't make much of an impression on me, other than the scene outside the court after Brendan's conviction.

I've cooked up a theory that the police got someone close to Avery who didn't like him, (Brendan's step dad or his brother) and offered them a way to get rid of him and make all their problems disappear...

(seems a plausible set of events...)

I'm now upto at least 5 theories!

[sbcmfc]

Just seen 2 people said that in the time it took me to type it.

What do you think of the possibility that Tadych and Bobby Dassey thought Avery was a pain in the neck, the police knew this and convinced them it was a good idea for everyone if they did it and the police would frame Avery for it....

That's become my new favourite hypothesis!

[Auld_Reekie]

So you think one of them did it and the police framed Avery? Do you think the police know they did it or even instructed them to do it?

Or just they did it, but the police were convinced it was Avery so made sure they got him?

I know nothing other than neither conviction is even remotely sound. Not even close. Both should have been thrown out of court and Manitowoc Sherriff's Department (and others) being thoroughly investigated.

Im not closed to the possibility that Avery especially is guilty, but regardless of who did it, the police did everything in their power to ensure Avery was found guilty, and pissed over every piece of evidence and every crime scene in the process.

I doubt the brother could carry it out to be honest - didn't flinch once, was very cool and almost nothing to implicate him. If he was killer, he's terrifying. Tardych is far more likely - inbred redneck, had motive, opportunity. Unclear whether he would have realised extent to which police would really go straight for Avery.

On balance, still likely to be Avery but Im not sure there was even one piece of evidence or crime scene that hadn't been contaminated by Sherriff's department. How the case wasn't thrown out of court and a mistrial announced is beyond me.