Snp And Education

[Caledonian Craig]

Not deflection at all.

If you wish to slate the SNP for what they are doing to the education system then fair enough but please don't pretend Westminster is some sort of saintly organisation. Lets not forget Westminster has had over 300 years of screwing up this country and a growing band of people have had enough. If you wonder why the SNP do so well in Scotland look to the reasons why. Firstly, SNP are the ones pushing for independence. Secondly, voters are wise to the fact that Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative parties are merely puppets of the Westminster brigade who will do anything to tow the line and vote in favour of bills even though they do Scotland no favours.

[Orraloon]

And as for personal attacks is Craig a she?

Nae idea, but it would certainly explain a few things. In my head anyway.

[Caledonian Craig]

Nae idea, but it would certainly explain a few things. In my head anyway.

The clue is in the username FFS.

[ParisInAKilt]

If you wish to slate the SNP for what they are doing to the education system then fair enough but please don't pretend Westminster is some sort of saintly organisation.

I don't think anyone is doing that

[Ormond]

The clue is in the username FFS.

I once put the baws tae a chick called Stevie.

[iainmac1]

I actually think our schooling system is doing very well and don't see how it would improve under labour. They criticise the SNP with made up statistics but don't say how they would change said made up statistics. We are on a far better position than the English school system that's for sure.

[aaid]

They absolutely do need to be held accountable, but we have the least accountable government in the world[\quote]

I agree that the government needs to be held accountable but you can hardly blame the SNP for the opposition being completely hopeless.

Labour - both in Scotland and the wider UK - need to concentrate on being an effective opposition first before thinking about governing.

[Larky Masher]

Not deflection at all.

If you wish to slate the SNP for what they are doing to the education system then fair enough but please don't pretend Westminster is some sort of saintly organisation. Lets not forget Westminster has had over 300 years of screwing up this country and a growing band of people have had enough. If you wonder why the SNP do so well in Scotland look to the reasons why. Firstly, SNP are the ones pushing for independence. Secondly, voters are wise to the fact that Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative parties are merely puppets of the Westminster brigade who will do anything to tow the line and vote in favour of bills even though they do Scotland no favours.

Where did I pretend that "Westminster is some sort of saintly organisation"?

[killiefaetheferry]

The clue is in the username FFS.

Ok darlin, don't get yer knickers in a twist. You got permission off yer man to be posting on here ?

[Scunnered]

Not deflection at all.

If you wish to slate the SNP for what they are doing to the education system then fair enough but please don't pretend Westminster is some sort of saintly organisation. Lets not forget Westminster has had over 300 years of screwing up this country and a growing band of people have had enough. If you wonder why the SNP do so well in Scotland look to the reasons why. Firstly, SNP are the ones pushing for independence. Secondly, voters are wise to the fact that Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative parties are merely puppets of the Westminster brigade who will do anything to tow the line and vote in favour of bills even though they do Scotland no favours.

I think the more glaring problem is the assumption that Holyrood is somehow more just than Westminster, they're both inhabited by unashamedly pro-business and pro-austerit political establishments and neither work for the good of the poor and working class.

Labour - both in Scotland and the wider UK - need to concentrate on being an effective opposition first before thinking about governing.

I couldn't agree more comrade.

[Toepoke]

I once put the baws tae a chick called Stevie.

I've heard he uses that pseudonym when out and about...

[Caledonian Craig]

I think the more glaring problem is the assumption that Holyrood is somehow more just than Westminster, they're both inhabited by unashamedly pro-business and pro-austerit political establishments and neither work for the good of the poor and working class.

I couldn't agree more comrade.

However, you want to look at Holyrood is irrelevant if you want independence. You may be right but Westminster has looked after the southern English first hence why poll taxes were highest generally in Scotland than England. It also remains the home of governments who send soldiers to meaningless deaths in wars founded on lies and sheer fabrication. Westminster rule is one that ensure Scots will continue to live under the thumb and told you are useless and incapable of running your own country. Nice little set up that eh.......NOT.

[Scunnered]

However, you want to look at Holyrood is irrelevant if you want independence. You may be right but Westminster has looked after the southern English first hence why poll taxes were highest generally in Scotland than England. It also remains the home of governments who send soldiers to meaningless deaths in wars founded on lies and sheer fabrication. Westminster rule is one that ensure Scots will continue to live under the thumb and told you are useless and incapable of running your own country. Nice little set up that eh.......NOT.

That post had all the nationalism. All of it!

You'd think you were living in a colony ffs.

[Caledonian Craig]

That post had all the nationalism. All of it!

You'd think you were living in a colony ffs.

Nationalism and realism. Tell me how did it make you feel hearing non-Scots during the referendum telling you that Scots are incapable of running their own country - as in all honesty that is what they were doing. Lets not fanny about here as Scotland has more than enough going for it to sustain itself - far more actually than many independent countries have and they manage just fine.

[deecie]

Nationalism and realism. Tell me how did it make you feel hearing non-Scots during the referendum telling you that Scots are incapable of running their own country - as in all honesty that is what they were doing. Lets not fanny about here as Scotland has more than enough going for it to sustain itself - far more actually than many independent countries have and they manage just fine.

You're really keen to discuss anything other than education.

[Alan]

The SNP have controlled education since 2007. By the next election it will be 9 years. They have had a majority for 5 years which means they could have done anything they wanted. Their record is really poor though. Nothing dynamic, nothing progressive with failures covered up by the false national sentiment within Scotland holding onto a myth that its education is one of the finest in the world. I would expect the majority of people in Scotland to identify education is devolved and who the education minister is.

Basically your education success is based largely (not all) on your postcode. In terms of my area if you are born in East Dunbartonshire or East Renfewshire then your chances of success are much higher than in Glasgow City Counil. In Glasgow 8% of state-educated pupils passed five Highers in S5. This is the "gold standard" to get into university. I know you can get in with less marks or sit more for 6th year but it's a way of checking success. In the poorest districts of Glasgow a state-educated kid has about a 1 in 10 chance of leaving school with the qualifications needed to attend university.

And so the other way of getting into uni would be further eduction as a stepping stone. But further education places have been cut which makes it more difficult from kids from poorer backgrounds. The "free" tuition fees (they are not free as they are money taken from other departments) are used to subsidise affluent kids to get a degree so the gap is retained and strengthened. The SNP pledged to wipe student debt in 2007. Instead it has increased while grants for poorer students have decreased. "Free" tuition fees are a total con and subsidise the professional middle classes.

The only state school in Glasgow that has success is Jordanhill and that is outside the control of the council and also I admit in a decent area. This follows the model in England where schools have more choice and independence which has shown positive results. So much so that Nicola Sturgeon was in London looking at schools and thow they operate there. There are schools in London that have high areas of deprivation, high % of kids where English is a 2nd language and single parent families and yet they are doing better than schools in Scotland with less problems.

We still have a "one size fits all" strategy. If you are academic and good and passing exams then school is for you but if you have other schools then you will struggle and feel alienated as vocational skills are still not fully supported or treated equally. I hear the phrase "social justice" banded around by politicians as if someone is pulling a chord at their back while education which is the best way of improving yourself is not getting the full analysis and improvement that is deserves.

To pass Higher Maths in 2015 there was a rate of 34%. And we expect foreign countries to take this seriously?

[MacWalka]

The SNP have controlled education since 2007. By the next election it will be 9 years. They have had a majority for 5 years which means they could have done anything they wanted. Their record is really poor though. Nothing dynamic, nothing progressive with failures covered up by the false national sentiment within Scotland holding onto a myth that its education is one of the finest in the world. I would expect the majority of people in Scotland to identify education is devolved and who the education minister is.

Basically your education success is based largely (not all) on your postcode. In terms of my area if you are born in East Dunbartonshire or East Renfewshire then your chances of success are much higher than in Glasgow City Counil. In Glasgow 8% of state-educated pupils passed five Highers in S5. This is the "gold standard" to get into university. I know you can get in with less marks or sit more for 6th year but it's a way of checking success. In the poorest districts of Glasgow a state-educated kid has about a 1 in 10 chance of leaving school with the qualifications needed to attend university.

And so the other way of getting into uni would be further eduction as a stepping stone. But further education places have been cut which makes it more difficult from kids from poorer backgrounds. The "free" tuition fees (they are not free as they are money taken from other departments) are used to subsidise affluent kids to get a degree so the gap is retained and strengthened. The SNP pledged to wipe student debt in 2007. Instead it has increased while grants for poorer students have decreased. "Free" tuition fees are a total con and subsidise the professional middle classes.

The only state school in Glasgow that has success is Jordanhill and that is outside the control of the council and also I admit in a decent area. This follows the model in England where schools have more choice and independence which has shown positive results. So much so that Nicola Sturgeon was in London looking at schools and thow they operate there. There are schools in London that have high areas of deprivation, high % of kids where English is a 2nd language and single parent families and yet they are doing better than schools in Scotland with less problems.

We still have a "one size fits all" strategy. If you are academic and good and passing exams then school is for you but if you have other schools then you will struggle and feel alienated as vocational skills are still not fully supported or treated equally. I hear the phrase "social justice" banded around by politicians as if someone is pulling a chord at their back while education which is the best way of improving yourself is not getting the full analysis and improvement that is deserves.

To pass Higher Maths in 2015 there was a rate of 34%. And we expect foreign countries to take this seriously?

There's very little in this post that I disagree with other than the free tuition fees part. It's one of the few policies that if it were abolished would piss me off enough to get me to do more than just moan on a messageboard.

Education is very hard to change and get right and I don't envy the SNP or any other Holyrood Government in improving it. Our universities are doing well but clearly attainment is an issue and schooling, especially in poorer areas needs to improve. CfE was supposed to get rid of the whole learning to pass exams mantra but it seems to be having a rocky road thus far. The Colleges appear to be a cluster#### all round, between abysmal handling of the merged campuses and low funding for college places.

[Alan]

"I'd pay more tax if I could".

"The rich should be taxed more".

I hear a lot of this. Sometimes sincerely. Sometimes insincerely.

The thing with "fees" as has been done in England is that it is actually a tax so those earning more pay more back. Not everyone will pay all the money back. Those in higher wages will pay more than those in lower wages. Higher grants to those less well off can be offered. Before we had 15% to 20% going to uni. Now it's closer to 50%. A conveyer belt. Resources, contact time, satisfaction have all been negatively impacted.

[MacWalka]

"I'd pay more tax if I could".

"The rich should be taxed more".

I hear a lot of this. Sometimes sincerely. Sometimes insincerely.

The thing with "fees" as has been done in England is that it is actually a tax so those earning more pay more back. Not everyone will pay all the money back. Those in higher wages will pay more than those in lower wages. Higher grants to those less well off can be offered. Before we had 15% to 20% going to uni. Now it's closer to 50%. A conveyer belt. Resources, contact time, satisfaction have all been negatively impacted.

The fees have 2 effects, it puts people from lower income backgrounds off (rightly or wrongly) of applying for uni and if there aren't grants it disproportionately affects people from lower income backgrounds. People who earn more following uni will generally pay more in tax via income tax, VAT etc. than if they were in a lower paid job so put back into society that way.

[Alan]

The fees have 2 effects, it puts people from lower income backgrounds off (rightly or wrongly) of applying for uni and if there aren't grants it disproportionately affects people from lower income backgrounds. People who earn more following uni will generally pay more in tax via income tax, VAT etc. than if they were in a lower paid job so put back into society that way.

Since the "fees"/tax have been introduced the numbers applying in England have increased. England has a larger number of people from a lower income background than Scotland in university. The grants in Scotland have been cut but in England they have increased. People have not been put off.

We have a situation where people say they are against austerity. As a country we spend more than we take in tax. Therefore we need more resources. Not one party has said they will charge more tax. The SNP pretend to be anti-austerity but they will not raise the top rate to 50% and they continue with tax free from Council tax. Therefore the only way to get tax in is through "stealth" means i.e. a graduate tax.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Alan

[Rossy]

The thing with "fees" as has been done in England is that it is actually a tax so those earning more pay more back. Not everyone will pay all the money back. Those in higher wages will pay more than those in lower wages. Higher grants to those less well off can be offered. Before we had 15% to 20% going to uni. Now it's closer to 50%. A conveyer belt. Resources, contact time, satisfaction have all been negatively impacted.

It was the Tories that introduced the 'University of Polytechnic' system, which encouraged new 'universities' to offer ridiculous courses like 'Media studies' to grab money from kids that should never have been in further academic studies in the first place.

University should only be for the academic cream, not for kids that should be in employment after leaving school, or in further education colleges learning a trade.

It's akin to the 'owning your house' mantra which dictates that you're only succesful if you own property and have been to university.

It;s the right-wing principle adopted with slavish devotion from the USA, and which is largely rejected by most European countries....almost all of whom have a much smaller gap between the haves and have nots than the UK.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Rossy

[aaid]

It;s the right-wing principle adopted with slavish devotion from the USA, and which is largely rejected by most European countries....almost all of whom have a much smaller gap between the haves and have nots than the UK.

Not really, the majority of European countries have tertiary education attendance rates of around 40%

[Rossy]

Not really, the majority of European countries have tertiary education attendance rates of around 40%

That's true, but not in the same sense as the 'university of polytechnic' system.

[Larky Masher]

Since the "fees"/tax have been introduced the numbers applying in England have increased. England has a larger number of people from a lower income background than Scotland in university. The grants in Scotland have been cut but in England they have increased. People have not been put off.

Is this your opinion or can you back this up with a source?

[Larky Masher]

It was the Tories that introduced the 'University of Polytechnic' system, which encouraged new 'universities' to offer ridiculous courses like 'Media studies' to grab money from kids that should never have been in further academic studies in the first place.

University should only be for the academic cream, not for kids that should be in employment after leaving school, or in further education colleges learning a trade.

The first point is simply wrong the Polytechnics were universities as they had degree awarding powers but they were centrally governed and not standalone institution in addition they had a technical focus on the whole offered engineering and science degrees.

As for the second point that's Dickensian.