scotlad Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yep After reading up on the ECB, the IMF, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs et al and what they have done to Greece i'll be voting to come out as well I think the SNP need to get a new strategy on Europe and quickly What I reckon they should have done before the independence referendum is promise another referendum, in the event of a Yes vote, on EU membership. Although, if they had done that, it would have implied that we might suddenly be cut adrift from the EU, which would have given even more people the heebie jeebies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 1 - Goldman Sachs and the previous Greek Government lied about the state of the Greek economy to get it into Europe 2 - When the banking crisis happened in 2008 the state of the Greek economy came to light and the ECB/IMF had to bail out Greece to avoid the country collapsing and causing a further economic crisis in Europe. Deutcshe Bank in particular has derivatives of roughly £75 trillion which no institution on earth can bail out if they go bust which will happen if Greece leaves the Euro 3 - Greece had to pay back this bail out but because their economy is rotten (see point 1) and was made even worse with austerity measures enforced by ECB/IMF - they cant. 4 When Greece ask for more money - its not money to pump into the economy - it's money to pay off the interest on their debts and to stop them defaulting I will agree with you that the Greeks cant have it both ways - they have to leave the club if they get their debt wiped And has anything happened to them for their lies/fraud ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 And has anything happened to them for their lies/fraud ? Yes. They have accumulated even vaster wealth that they had before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 And has anything happened to them for their lies/fraud ? If they open the book on Goldman Sachs then they would have to open the book on all of the financial/banking institutions They have let Deutsche bank run up derivatives of over 75 trillion for example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 No its lazy to just glibly say they owe a lot of money and they want more ... But it's true. They want to borrow more money to service their debt so they either play by the rules to get more money or don't and default. Still don't get why that's lazy. I can't be arsed getting into a moan about the rights and wrongs of how they got to this point but that is the choice they face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 But it's true. They want to borrow more money to service their debt so they either play by the rules to get more money or don't and default. Still don't get why that's lazy. I can't be arsed getting into a moan about the rights and wrongs of how they got to this point but that is the choice they face. The rules that they are playing are the rules of the banks and the financial institutions who have stupidly gambled on Greece - not economics. By giving Greece money to service their debt Greece stays in the Eurozone and Deutsche bank stays afloat If Deutsche bank goes bust then it will be on a scale much larger than when Lehman Brothers and Barings Bank went kaput so you can imagine the impact that will have on the European market But to keep Deutsche bank afloat and stay in the Eurozone the Greeks have to impose austerity on levels we cant imagine and sell of all of their assets to the European banks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Jings. The major creditors have laid out their terms for further loans. Greece has called a referendum for Sumday. Despite you trying to drag me in to some opinionated argument about the rights and wrongs of either side of the argument the choice is still the same: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Overly simplistic I know. But the Europeans lent Greece billions , esp Germany , which was largely used to import expensive German goods esp.. Seemed like a win/win for Deutschland.. for as long as all keeps on, but as soon as someone rocks the boat.. Greece has been screwed from inside and out. And the people suffer. Edited July 1, 2015 by mariokempes56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Despite you trying to drag me in to some opinionated argument about the rights and wrongs of either side of the argument the choice is still the same: I never tried to "drag" you into anything You opened with simplistic rhetoric, currently subscribed to by the right wing, suggesting that it's all Greece's fault by saying they shouldnt be borrowing money if they cant "play by the rules" Just trying to point out its far more compicated than that and exiting the Euro will be very painful for Greece Edited July 1, 2015 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I never tried to "drag" you into anything You opened with simplistic rhetoric, currently subscribed to by the right wing, suggesting that it's all Greece's fault by saying they shouldnt be borrowing money if they cant "play by the rules" Just trying to point out its far more compicated than that and exiting the Euro will be very painful for Greece Whit are you on? For the last time, however they got here they want to borrow more money. To do this they will either have to comply with the lenders conditions or tell them to GTF, default and deal with outcome. I must be missing something if you think they really have another choice. I have never said 'Its all the Greeks fault' I have only about the choice that face now. Edited July 1, 2015 by andymac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/pompous-arse-taking-tough-stance-on-greece-2015070299796 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/pompous-arse-taking-tough-stance-on-greece-2015070299796 Saw this today on FB. I love the Daily Mash. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/pompous-arse-taking-tough-stance-on-greece-2015070299796 Doesnt happen very often However Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Doesnt happen very often However Ach don't be like that. I bet if we took my rampant mistrust & criticism of the Scottish Government, and your rampant need to take up position as apologist for them we'd have hunners in common! Hunners! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajin Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/01/syriza-cave-in-elites-regime-change I think this opinion piece has it spot on. The ruling banker class don't want the plebs taking control. Some parallels to the Scottish independence vote here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 If the Guardian article is mostly accurate, and it ties in with a lot of other stuff i've read, then the implications of it are extremely sinister. Although any reader of John Perkins won't be surprised by it happening as much as where it is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Massive story in the guardian www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/02/imf-greece-needs-extra-50bn-euros IMF and EU are not in agreement, and the IMF will not approve any deal without debt relief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Iain Macwhirter @iainmacwhirter Jun 29 The EU didn't bail out Greece. It bailed out its own private banks who had lent irresponsibly to Greece. Now offering Greece debt servitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajin Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Iain Macwhirter @iainmacwhirter Jun 29 The EU didn't bail out Greece. It bailed out its own private banks who had lent irresponsibly to Greece. Now offering Greece debt servitude. Exactly. 90% of bailout funds have been going straight back to the banks: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/7/1/greek-bailout-money-went-to-banks-not-greece.html It's madness to keep up this cycle. (Unless you are the bank, of course.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Iain Macwhirter @iainmacwhirter Jun 29 The EU didn't bail out Greece. It bailed out its own private banks who had lent irresponsibly to Greece. Now offering Greece debt servitude. And in doing so they changed the morality of the debt. Defaulting on a private bank debt = private business risk, not good to do but that's business. Defaulting on public debt = stealing from taxpayers and morally reprehensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeedom Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Jim Fairlie was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Yes is leading in the polls, apparently. Bit surprised by that. I know tourism is a huge part of the Greek economy and remaining in the common currency makes that easier, but if the polls are accurate then the Greeks are basically voting for more austerity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Yes is leading in the polls, apparently. Bit surprised by that. I know tourism is a huge part of the Greek economy and remaining in the common currency makes that easier, but if the polls are accurate then the Greeks are basically voting for more austerity. if we had a referendum in the UK about more or less austerity, more would win. There is no doubt about that, in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 if we had a referendum in the UK about more or less austerity, more would win. There is no doubt about that, in my mind. Agreed but the UK hasn't hit rock bottom like Greece has. Would still be surprised if YES wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Agreed but the UK hasn't hit rock bottom like Greece has. Would still be surprised if YES wins. Greece hasn't hit rock bottom either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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