International Form V Club Form

[Caledonian Craig]

What should more stock be put in? International form or club form when selecting our squads/teams? 

I, personally, put more stock in international form as that is the level that matters most if you are a Scotland form. We have players in the squad and first team regulars for us who may not always be in club form or getting regular club football but they can still be relied upon to deliver for us at key times. 

I noted comments saying Che Adams should be in the side over Lyndon Dykes for his club form. The thing is that has often been the case for Adams in club football form over Dykes. However, Dykes is the more prolific striker for Scotland and look at his key contribution in Oslo last summer. 

Another case is Craig Gordon but admittedly age may also play a part here. Gordon is perhaps one of our top five goalkeepers of all-time but because he is being kept out of the Hearts side by Zander Clark some feel that reason enough to select Clark above Gordon.. For Scotland Clark has looked very ropey and personally I'd feel far more comfortable with Gordon between the sticks for us but for others Clark getting first team football above Gordon (combined with age) makes Clark a better option for some. Not me.

Also if we look back through the years there have been Scotland internationals who were highly-rated on club form yet for Scotland they were a pale shadow of themselves. I am thinking of the likes of Charlie Adam, Ollie McBurnie, Brian McClair, Charlie Nicholas and am sure there are plenty more.

Clearly, well it is to me, some players are far more comfortable at international level and can raise their game when called upon and those players are important to us. For me club form is important to force your way into the squad but its more important what you do when there after all it is only Scotland's results that matter so international form/displays are more important to me.

I know that will be an opinion that differs greatly from others but feel free to counter my argument.

[Caledonian Craig]

Just to add I am not downplaying the importance of club form as an in-form player at club level usually brings lots of confidence into an international squad which is important. But does that guarantee a top performance for us? That depends on the individuals adaptability to international football in my opinion.

[BryanBlessed]

International form is more important but I think it depends on the position. A striker not scoring at club level might not have much confidence at club level. On the flip side, international football was probably a release for Tierney and McTominay.

I wouldn't say Dykes had a good campaign to be honest. Great few minutes against Norway but I thought he was quite poor in other matches especially later in the campaign.

[Diamond Scot]

I think it depends on the circumstances and also the player.

One thing I like about Clarke is that the doesnt give easy call ups or caps based on a purple patch of club form. Especially for younger players. Equally once you are in the squad and established there needs to be a proper reason for you to drop out, ie your form falling off a cliff or somebody who is clearly better and will keep the place coming along.

That being said international football is unique in that you play very few games over a long period of time. Take Dykes just as an example, he has done well for Scotland but his club form has been poor for some time. The question is when or does his club form transfer over to Scotland. Getting that decision correct is what Clarkes been good at in his reign. Its a big ask for any althete to just turn on the tap if they havent been performing for a oeriod of about 18 months.

For me Dyke's performances for Scotland have been getting progressively worse. He might still nick the odd goal etc but sometimes that masks the bigger picture.

[bdgsct]

International football is different in style to most club football. Games tend to be tighter with less risks taken involving more direct play which often suits some players more than others -Dykes being one imo. So I can see the case for focusing on international form. Three points though, 1. How long to you do you forgive poor club form and how long do take into account good international form? At some you need to draw a line and look to improve the team. 2. The quality of potential replacements has to be considered. There are question marks over all our strikers imo. 3. You need to consider how many other players in the side will be coming in with poor or no club form due to lack of games. If we have 3/4 in our starting 11 then I'd say we are in trouble. Overall I would edge towards favour being given to good club form - guys like Gilmour, Christie (CM), Ferguson, Shankland. There are exceptions, I'd always take Gordon.

[broraboy]

My take on International form is different from Club form……

The 2 kinda go hand in hand

Scotlands last match was Norway back in November, our next match is 4 months later in March! 
If a Scotland player plays poorly back in November, does that merit selection and/or playing time 4 months later? 

Take Dykes for example, has been a stalwart for Scotland over the last 3 years! 
Think he’s on 30+ Caps now, Steve Clarke has to select him as on the most part he’s done well for us. However Dykes club form has not been great and didn’t start yesterday for a honking QPR, if that becomes a regular feature does Clarke still select him - the answer is Yes because we don’t have the depth of players to choose from. 
The question is, when does Clarkes goodwill run out? 

It’s a balancing act, Clarkes job is to get results and evolve the Team as naturally players age and form drops off - as the post from bdgsct mentioned above, you need to consider what other players are coming to Scotland with poor club form or playing time! 

[csinclair]

I think when everyone has been fit Clarke has tended to opt for Adams over Dykes anyway, it’s just that Adams had a lot of knocks throughout the last campaign. 
As said above, I don’t think Dykes played that well for us overall. He started very good off the bench against Cyprus and played well against Spain at home but after that he was pretty poor. Even in Oslo he was poor for 90% of that game but fortunately got the goal and assist when it mattered.

[Caledonian Craig]

One thing is sure that Lawrence Shankland, on club and international form, should be way ahead of Jacob Brown in the pecking order. Clarke is leaving himself open to heavy criticism if he perseveres with Brown over Shankland.

 

[Ally Bongo]

McFadden was more suited to International Football than top level club football

[ProudScot]

Dykes has hardly scored this season and his last goal for Scotland, Norway goal aside, was against Ukraine a couple of years ago so he’s got neither club nor international form going for him at present. That being said, he’s talismanic & effective and has credit in the bank so will be in the squad for sure.

[Caledonian Craig]

19 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Dykes has hardly scored this season and his last goal for Scotland, Norway goal aside, was against Ukraine a couple of years ago so he’s got neither club nor international form going for him at present. That being said, he’s talismanic & effective and has credit in the bank so will be in the squad for sure.

And remember he has been in a largely winning Scotland side. If we had suffered losses in key matches and squad confidence was low then by all means look elsewhere but it isn't.

[BryanBlessed]

2 hours ago, ProudScot said:

Dykes has hardly scored this season and his last goal for Scotland, Norway goal aside, was against Ukraine a couple of years ago so he’s got neither club nor international form going for him at present. That being said, he’s talismanic & effective and has credit in the bank so will be in the squad for sure.

And the goal against Norway was more about a defensive error than great play on his part. He showed tenacity but it wasn't a brilliant finish or anything. To be fair to him, he hasn't had that many chances and I don't think that's 100% his fault.

[N4Footsoldier]

For the avoidance of any doubt, Scotland are the football team that all of us on this forum are jointly supporting, and as such I don't think we should give much of a toss about club performance, especially for players that have rarely let us down.

Agree with similar comments over internationals being stylistically different from club football, less games so higher leverage on specific incidents = less risk taken etc.

Club performance can be used as a leading indicator for what we might expect from players at internationals, for example Christie's recent position change, low goal total for Dykes, Kenny McLean playing more centre back etc etc. These will be factors to consider but only one of several factors taken into acount by Clarke when considering the players to build a team around for 90mins for 2 games every few months

[Tartan blood]

23 hours ago, N4Footsoldier said:

For the avoidance of any doubt, Scotland are the football team that all of us on this forum are jointly supporting, and as such I don't think we should give much of a toss about club performance, especially for players that have rarely let us down.

Agree with similar comments over internationals being stylistically different from club football, less games so higher leverage on specific incidents = less risk taken etc.

Club performance can be used as a leading indicator for what we might expect from players at internationals, for example Christie's recent position change, low goal total for Dykes, Kenny McLean playing more centre back etc etc. These will be factors to consider but only one of several factors taken into acount by Clarke when considering the players to build a team around for 90mins for 2 games every few months

The way I've viewed club form the last few years is that it is an audition. You need to demonstrate that you can perform to a high standard to be given a role within our ensemble cast.

To continue the movie metaphor, once you are part of the A-list, you no longer have to audition. Simon Pegg said recently that he doesn't audition for big movies anymore, his movies are now his auditions.

To put this into a football context, if our players have gotten themselves into the national team on merit, and their performances have not dropped (for Scotland), then they have already passed the audition and deserve to continue to be an A lister. 

McFadden is probably the best example in the past couple of decades. There were various times in his career where his club form wouldn't have passed the test, but we all know he was a big game player that produced top class performances when it really mattered. McTominay is the most recent example of this.

[BryanBlessed]

How long do we give players who have poor club form but also poor international form. One campaign?

[broraboy]

1 hour ago, BryanBlessed said:

How long do we give players who have poor club form but also poor international form. One campaign?

Good question 

I think if you have a bunch of games in Sept / Oct / Nov like we did at the end of last year and players have performed poorly or not featured for their respective Clubs but have done well for Scotland then for me it’s acceptable to call them up for the next International get together the following month. 

However, Scotland's last game was November last year and come March there will be a lot of water under the bridge since then……. 
If you don’t gauge club form, then barring injury Scotland would have the same players every time ?!? 
 

So with that IMO you can’t ignore club form 

[Tartan blood]

1 hour ago, BryanBlessed said:

How long do we give players who have poor club form but also poor international form. One campaign?

Do you have someone in mind? I've not watched much of Celtic lately but Greg Taylor has been getting it tight from their fans. Not that that means much, as Scots generally get thrown under the boss before anyone else.

To answer your question, it'll maybe depend somewhat on the quality of player waiting in the wings. I.e we have far fewer backups in goals and up front than we do in midfield. Dykes will get a lot more leeway than McLean, for example.

[Caledonian Craig]

For me it is not as vital if results are still coming despite the odd poor performance by one or two players. The need for change comes when results in key matches dry up.

[BryanBlessed]

3 hours ago, Tartan blood said:

Do you have someone in mind? I've not watched much of Celtic lately but Greg Taylor has been getting it tight from their fans. Not that that means much, as Scots generally get thrown under the boss before anyone else.

To answer your question, it'll maybe depend somewhat on the quality of player waiting in the wings. I.e we have far fewer backups in goals and up front than we do in midfield. Dykes will get a lot more leeway than McLean, for example.

The obvious answer is Dykes at the moment. If he'd never been picked for Scotland, nobody would be proposing giving him a chance and he'd be behind Shankland/Adams/Conway/Hardie (maybe) and probably some others I've forgotten. He gets in because he's done a good job for us in the past but the goodwill built up will eventually run out. It's probably the case that his potential replacements may be better but not that much better that Clarke would want to disrupt the group which I completely understand. I guess the point is moot as there is absolutely no way he's not going to the Euros if fit.

 

[Tartan blood]

17 hours ago, BryanBlessed said:

The obvious answer is Dykes at the moment. If he'd never been picked for Scotland, nobody would be proposing giving him a chance and he'd be behind Shankland/Adams/Conway/Hardie (maybe) and probably some others I've forgotten. He gets in because he's done a good job for us in the past but the goodwill built up will eventually run out. It's probably the case that his potential replacements may be better but not that much better that Clarke would want to disrupt the group which I completely understand. I guess the point is moot as there is absolutely no way he's not going to the Euros if fit.

 

Club form, yes, but his international form has been fine. Obviously not banging the goals in, but he made some significant contributions in the last campaign.

I don't think there is any chance he won't make the Euros squad, but he might find himself the 3rd choice striker by then if Shankland gets a fair shake and Adams continues his luke warm club form.

[BryanBlessed]

12 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Club form, yes, but his international form has been fine. Obviously not banging the goals in, but he made some significant contributions in the last campaign.

I don't think there is any chance he won't make the Euros squad, but he might find himself the 3rd choice striker by then if Shankland gets a fair shake and Adams continues his luke warm club form.

I actually thought he had a poor campaign especially the after the first round of matches.

[Tartan blood]

2 hours ago, BryanBlessed said:

I actually thought he had a poor campaign especially the after the first round of matches.

He played a pivotal role in that away win over Norway. And an assist in the first game as well. But, yeah, that aside, he hasn't contributed a huge amount to the campaign. Nor has Adams, for that matter. Zero goals and assists. Both had some injury issues but I'm sure they both know they should be doing better.

Surely this will not be lost on Clarke. Shankland needs at least 2 starts in these friendlies to prove his worth. 

[GroundsKeeper]

50 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Shankland needs at least 2 starts in these friendlies to prove his worth. 

I expect Shankland to be given a start against the netherlands.

Finland and  especially Gibraltar won't tell us much about how the players will perform against Germany in the opening game.

[BryanBlessed]

1 hour ago, Tartan blood said:

He played a pivotal role in that away win over Norway. And an assist in the first game as well. But, yeah, that aside, he hasn't contributed a huge amount to the campaign. Nor has Adams, for that matter. Zero goals and assists. Both had some injury issues but I'm sure they both know they should be doing better.

Surely this will not be lost on Clarke. Shankland needs at least 2 starts in these friendlies to prove his worth. 

 

Aside from those few minutes against Norway (great lay off for McLean but I'd put the goal down to a defensive error) he didn't do anything of note after the matches against Cyprus and Spain

Shankland was already flying high for Hearts and had scored against Georgia and Clarke still put Dykes on to replace Brown against Norway. Dykes isn't even starting for QPR at the moment and came on at 85 minutes on Wednesday so I hope Clarke gives Shankland his chance.

[N4Footsoldier]

Dykes has enough credit with the national team that until he starts to let us down consistently in a dark blue jersey he is without question going to be in every squad if not starting most games.

And most importantly he fits our system exactly how Clarke wants a centre forward to play. Until we find someone who fits our system better and/or we change system he will start, otherwise we are going back into conversations over starting certain players for goal scoring record rather than what they can bring to the team overall